100 vs 100

Bella · October 31, 2014, 04:02 PM

I have been looking to buy a bolt action rifle. Its probably going to be a Savage. Now as far as caliber, its between the .243 Winchester and the .25-06 Remington.

I was doing some ballistic research through the internet. I see that both calibers can launch a 100 grain bullet at around 3000 feet per second. The .25-06 bullet is slightly larger in diameter. The .243's bullet has a higher sectional density. Assuming both projectiles are of similar construction, which one would perform better on pronghorn size game?

Blindstitch · October 31, 2014, 04:43 PM

Both will probably do great on pronghorn.

For me the main question would be to get the 243 where ammo should be available everywhere or 25-06 that you would have to stock up on or reload.

Coming from a guy who hunts deer with a 30-40 krag and 6.5x50 Arisaka I hate looking for rare ammo that doesn't always exist. In the last year I have only been able to buy one box of 30-40 krag and I have never seen 6.5x50 on the shelf so I have 300+ rounds saved up of reloads.

My 30-30 and british 303 are a lot easier to feed.

JD0x0 · October 31, 2014, 04:45 PM

Higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient with the smaller diameter bullet. Not always true of the BC but if you compare bullets of equal weights with similar shapes, the one with less frontal area (ie smaller diameter) will have an advantage.

It's also worth noting that the .25-06 only fits in a long action, while .243 will fit in a short action rifle.

.243 uses .308 win as a parent case
.25-06 uses the .30-06

Given that the .25 has more powder capacity and a larger diameter, it should perform better, as far as muzzle velocity with equal weight bullets. The fact that it doesn't, shows it might not be as efficient as the .243

burning more powder in this case seems it just sacrifices more barrel life, and increases recoil and muzzle blast for no gains.

IMO, if you're going the .25-06 route, might as well just get a .270 Winchester, and call it a day. It'll launch higher sectional density bullets at a faster speed than the .25-06 with a negligible increase in recoil, IMO. Ammo is easy to find, and with light bullets, .243 Winchester trajectory can be emulated quite closely.

Doyle · October 31, 2014, 05:04 PM

Also, the 25-06 is one of those cartridges that really benefits from a longer barrel (24+). The .243 is quite happy with a 20-22" barrel. A 25-06 with shorter barrels results in lots of muzzle flash - something that always bothers me.

std7mag · October 31, 2014, 06:25 PM

However, if you go heavier, the 25-06 will have the advantage at longer ranges.

If your staying within 100 yards, there really is no need to go larger than the .243.

Bart B. · October 31, 2014, 06:55 PM

With equal peak pressures, the 25-06 will shoot 100 grain bullets out 150 to 200 fps faster. It's got more case capacity.

I think the 243 is a more accurate round.

JD0x0 · October 31, 2014, 07:00 PM

Quote:

However, if you go heavier, the 25-06 will have the advantage at longer ranges.

Depends on a few factors.

What is the heaviest VLD available for .257 cal?
The heaviest bullet I've found in .257 is 120 grains.
The heaviest bullets I've found in .243 range from 115-117 grains.
Hardly gives the .25 an advantage...

...Or rather what's the highest BC bullet available in .257 cal?
I'm having trouble finding one bullet that even reaches, let alone exceeds a G1 BC of .500 in that caliber.

(.243) Berger makes a 115 grain with a G1 BC of .545
For reference they only have 1 VLD bullet available for .257 cal and it's also 115 grains. The G1 BC is only .466

Assuming you had a twist rate suitable to stabilize these bullets, the .243 would have an advantage at long range. Unfortunately .25 cal bullets aren't extremely popular and VLD choices seem to be more limited than .243 (and .277)

It seems that the .243 would have advantage at range as well. If you were looking for a step up from .243, for long range, the .25-06 would not be a good choice IMO. The .270 win (or less available .280 rem) is much better suited for heavy game out to 600-800 yards, depending on the shooter's skill.
For reaching out past the .243 you've got to at least move up to a .264 cal simply for the choices in VLD hunting bullets.

jmr40 · October 31, 2014, 08:21 PM

Quote:

With equal peak pressures, the 25-06 will shoot 100 grain bullets out 150 to 200 fps faster. It's got more case capacity.

I think the 243 is a more accurate round.

But the better BC's of the 243 bullets of the same weight will come very close to making up that 150 fps at some point down range. On paper the 25-06 has the edge at fairly close ranges. The 243 will never shoot as flat if you start a 25-06 150 fps faster, but will come close. But at some point down range the 243 will have more energy and better penetration on game if equal bullet weights and construction are used because of the differences in aerodynamics.

I've never been a 25 caliber fan. It can work, they all do, but I've always felt the 243 could do anything a 25-06 could do with less fuss.

Snyper · October 31, 2014, 08:30 PM

With a 25-06, you get a heavier gun, more recoil and a barely noticeable power increase.

The 243 will be more efficient and just as deadly at any range under 400 yds, and has a wider bullet selection

Bart B. · October 31, 2014, 08:57 PM

If two rifles identical in all properties except for bore and chamber dimensions, one in 25-06 will be lighter than one in .243 Win. as more metal has been removed from the 25 caliber barrel's inside.

JD0x0 · October 31, 2014, 09:32 PM

^^ which means more recoil and a flimsier barrel.

Pathfinder45 · October 31, 2014, 09:52 PM

If you will not be reloading, you should choose between 243 and 270 Winchester. 25-06 ammo generally costs half-again what the other two cost. Reloading equalizes things a lot. If you reload, I would say, the better choice would be between 6mm Remington and 270 Winchester. The 270 will push 130 grain bullets at least 100fps faster than a 25-06 will go with 120 grain bullets. In other words, the 270 will do everything the 25-06 will do, and more besides, at considerably less price.

Snyper · October 31, 2014, 10:25 PM

Quote:

If two rifles identical in all properties except for bore and chamber dimensions, one in 25-06 will be lighter than one in .243 Win. as more metal has been removed from the 25 caliber barrel's inside.

But they most likely won't be identical, since a 243's action and chamber area can be 1/2" shorter, making them lighter

Few companies build 243's on a long action

The tiny amount of difference due to bore size would only be minescule

JD0x0 · October 31, 2014, 10:26 PM

Quote:

The 270 will push 130 grain bullets at least 100fps faster than a 25-06 will go with 120 grain bullets. In other words, the 270 will do everything the 25-06 will do, and more besides, at considerably less price.

Exactly...

.25-06 120 grain SD= .260
Velocity: ~2990fps

.270 140 grain SD= .261
Velocity ~2940-3090fps

Snyper · October 31, 2014, 10:30 PM

Quote:

In other words, the 270 will do everything the 25-06 will do, and more besides, at considerably less price.

A 7mm08 will do most anything a 270 can do and with less recoil, but the question is still a multiple choice: "243 or 25-06"

JD0x0 · October 31, 2014, 10:45 PM

Quote:

A 7mm08 will do most anything a 270 can do and with less recoil

not buying that one, bud

Snyper · November 1, 2014, 03:37 AM

Quote:

not buying that one, bud

The ballistics don't lie
There's very little difference in performance with the most common bullet weights, but the 708 does it with less powder, the same way the 243 can be comparable with the 25-06

At practical hunting distances, they perform nearly identically

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm

Quote:

MV (fps) V @ 200 yds ME (ft lb) E @ 200 yds

7mm-08 Rem. (140 Sp) 2860 2402 2542 1793

270 Win. (130 Sp) 3060 2639 2702 2009

That 200 ft/lb difference isn't worth the extra expense and recoil to me

Jimro · November 1, 2014, 05:20 AM

The 7x57 and 7-08 are ballistic twins (close enough that the animals don't care). The 280 Rem offers a ballistic advantage to handloaders (aka the 7mm Rem Express loading) but once you are over 1,000 ft/lbs of energy, there doesn't seem to be any real advantage on deer sized game. In terms of killing animals, none of these chamberings are magical death rays.

The 243 Win verses the 25-06 is an interesting discussion. I would choose the 243 Win myself, as it will kill pronghorn just fine, and do so with less powder and commonly available commercial ammo incase I forgot my handloads.

Note that none of my considerations take into account terminal ballistics. So I would recomend getting the rifle that fits you better, and let the caliber end up being whatever it ends up being.

Jimro

Bart B. · November 1, 2014, 07:36 AM

JD0x0, what's the actual difference in recoil (ft-lbs) and barrel stiffness (resonant frequency it vibrates at) for an 8.00 pound .243 rifle after its rebarreled with a .25-06 one having the same outside profile? How much and what performance will change with that flimsier barrel?

1%? 5%? 10%? More?

jason75979 · November 1, 2014, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart B.

JD0x0, what's the actual difference in recoil (ft-lbs) and barrel stiffness (resonant frequency it vibrates at) for an 8.00 pound .243 rifle after its rebarreled with a .25-06 one having the same outside profile? How much and what performance will change with that flimsier barrel?

1%? 5%? 10%? More?

That's gonna be a rarity. Not too many long action 243s around.
What grain bulletz?
Comparative for caliber? Or, exact weight?

Jimro · November 1, 2014, 08:20 AM

Used to be you could get a Savage 110 in 243 Win. But then again Savage actions were LONG to begin with...

Other long actions that were chambered in 243 Win were M98 Mausers and M70 Winchesters.

Of course you could always go with a Rem700 long action to handle a short 308 size cartridge, like the Army did with the M24.

It isn't outside the realm of possibilities.

Jimro

Bella · November 1, 2014, 09:50 AM

Shouldn't sectional density be part of the equation? Doesn't it help determine how well a bullet penetrates?

natman · November 1, 2014, 10:22 AM

The 25-06 is being unfairly handicapped in this discussion because of the insistence on using 100 grain bullets in it. The 25-06 will easily handle 120 grain bullets. There may be 117 .243 bullets available, but most 243s don't have a fast enough twist to stabilize them, which is why there's no factory 243 ammo over 100 grains.

The only advantage of the 243 is that it fits in a short action. Otherwise the 25-06 is a superior deer round. If I really wanted a short action, I'd get one - in 7mm-08.

Bart B. · November 1, 2014, 10:31 AM

I think natman's on the right track. Compare the two calibers with bullets of equal sectional density. There has to be some leveling of the playing field else any one of several things could tip the scale towards one's emotions.

Bella · November 1, 2014, 10:52 AM

I am not interested in a 270 or 7-08. I want either a 243 or 25-06. I am leaning towards the 243.

October 31, 2014, 04:02 PM	#1
Bella Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 341	100 vs 100 I have been looking to buy a bolt action rifle. Its probably going to be a Savage. Now as far as caliber, its between the .243 Winchester and the .25-06 Remington. I was doing some ballistic research through the internet. I see that both calibers can launch a 100 grain bullet at around 3000 feet per second. The .25-06 bullet is slightly larger in diameter. The .243's bullet has a higher sectional density. Assuming both projectiles are of similar construction, which one would perform better on pronghorn size game?

October 31, 2014, 08:30 PM	#9
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	With a 25-06, you get a heavier gun, more recoil and a barely noticeable power increase. The 243 will be more efficient and just as deadly at any range under 400 yds, and has a wider bullet selection __________________ One shot, one kill

October 31, 2014, 09:52 PM	#12
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Will you be reloading? If you will not be reloading, you should choose between 243 and 270 Winchester. 25-06 ammo generally costs half-again what the other two cost. Reloading equalizes things a lot. If you reload, I would say, the better choice would be between 6mm Remington and 270 Winchester. The 270 will push 130 grain bullets at least 100fps faster than a 25-06 will go with 120 grain bullets. In other words, the 270 will do everything the 25-06 will do, and more besides, at considerably less price.

November 1, 2014, 05:20 AM	#18
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	The 7x57 and 7-08 are ballistic twins (close enough that the animals don't care). The 280 Rem offers a ballistic advantage to handloaders (aka the 7mm Rem Express loading) but once you are over 1,000 ft/lbs of energy, there doesn't seem to be any real advantage on deer sized game. In terms of killing animals, none of these chamberings are magical death rays. The 243 Win verses the 25-06 is an interesting discussion. I would choose the 243 Win myself, as it will kill pronghorn just fine, and do so with less powder and commonly available commercial ammo incase I forgot my handloads. Note that none of my considerations take into account terminal ballistics. So I would recomend getting the rifle that fits you better, and let the caliber end up being whatever it ends up being. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 1, 2014, 07:36 AM	#19
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	JD0x0, what's the actual difference in recoil (ft-lbs) and barrel stiffness (resonant frequency it vibrates at) for an 8.00 pound .243 rifle after its rebarreled with a .25-06 one having the same outside profile? How much and what performance will change with that flimsier barrel? 1%? 5%? 10%? More? Last edited by Bart B.; November 1, 2014 at 07:55 AM.

October 31, 2014, 04:43 PM	#2
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Both will probably do great on pronghorn. For me the main question would be to get the 243 where ammo should be available everywhere or 25-06 that you would have to stock up on or reload. Coming from a guy who hunts deer with a 30-40 krag and 6.5x50 Arisaka I hate looking for rare ammo that doesn't always exist. In the last year I have only been able to buy one box of 30-40 krag and I have never seen 6.5x50 on the shelf so I have 300+ rounds saved up of reloads. My 30-30 and british 303 are a lot easier to feed.

October 31, 2014, 04:45 PM	#3
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	Higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient with the smaller diameter bullet. Not always true of the BC but if you compare bullets of equal weights with similar shapes, the one with less frontal area (ie smaller diameter) will have an advantage. It's also worth noting that the .25-06 only fits in a long action, while .243 will fit in a short action rifle. .243 uses .308 win as a parent case .25-06 uses the .30-06 Given that the .25 has more powder capacity and a larger diameter, it should perform better, as far as muzzle velocity with equal weight bullets. The fact that it doesn't, shows it might not be as efficient as the .243 burning more powder in this case seems it just sacrifices more barrel life, and increases recoil and muzzle blast for no gains. IMO, if you're going the .25-06 route, might as well just get a .270 Winchester, and call it a day. It'll launch higher sectional density bullets at a faster speed than the .25-06 with a negligible increase in recoil, IMO. Ammo is easy to find, and with light bullets, .243 Winchester trajectory can be emulated quite closely.

October 31, 2014, 05:04 PM	#4
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Also, the 25-06 is one of those cartridges that really benefits from a longer barrel (24+). The .243 is quite happy with a 20-22" barrel. A 25-06 with shorter barrels results in lots of muzzle flash - something that always bothers me.

October 31, 2014, 06:25 PM	#5
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	However, if you go heavier, the 25-06 will have the advantage at longer ranges. If your staying within 100 yards, there really is no need to go larger than the .243.

October 31, 2014, 06:55 PM	#6
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	With equal peak pressures, the 25-06 will shoot 100 grain bullets out 150 to 200 fps faster. It's got more case capacity. I think the 243 is a more accurate round.

October 31, 2014, 08:57 PM	#10
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	If two rifles identical in all properties except for bore and chamber dimensions, one in 25-06 will be lighter than one in .243 Win. as more metal has been removed from the 25 caliber barrel's inside.

October 31, 2014, 09:32 PM	#11
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	^^ which means more recoil and a flimsier barrel.

November 1, 2014, 08:20 AM	#21
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Used to be you could get a Savage 110 in 243 Win. But then again Savage actions were LONG to begin with... Other long actions that were chambered in 243 Win were M98 Mausers and M70 Winchesters. Of course you could always go with a Rem700 long action to handle a short 308 size cartridge, like the Army did with the M24. It isn't outside the realm of possibilities. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 1, 2014, 09:50 AM	#22
Bella Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 341	Shouldn't sectional density be part of the equation? Doesn't it help determine how well a bullet penetrates?

November 1, 2014, 10:22 AM	#23
natman Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2008 Posts: 2,607	The 25-06 is being unfairly handicapped in this discussion because of the insistence on using 100 grain bullets in it. The 25-06 will easily handle 120 grain bullets. There may be 117 .243 bullets available, but most 243s don't have a fast enough twist to stabilize them, which is why there's no factory 243 ammo over 100 grains. The only advantage of the 243 is that it fits in a short action. Otherwise the 25-06 is a superior deer round. If I really wanted a short action, I'd get one - in 7mm-08.

November 1, 2014, 10:31 AM	#24
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	I think natman's on the right track. Compare the two calibers with bullets of equal sectional density. There has to be some leveling of the playing field else any one of several things could tip the scale towards one's emotions.

November 1, 2014, 10:52 AM	#25
Bella Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 341	I am not interested in a 270 or 7-08. I want either a 243 or 25-06. I am leaning towards the 243.