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July 12, 2013, 01:37 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
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He's right.
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July 13, 2013, 07:46 PM | #27 |
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Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
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Killing vs murder or homicide...
To me, killing in self defense or in the defense of another person or group of people(armed robbery, arson, WMD type terrorism, etc) is not murder.
It's not a ethical issue or moral problem if you can justify your acts or reasons to a jury of your peers(or IAW a review board or formal investigation if you are in armed professions). In some states & juristdictions(like mine), which says you must provide the Div of Licensing with the LE report of a use-of-force incident(deadly force) within 5/five days of the event(G or armed security officer). A concealed carry license or firearms permit is not a "license to kill". You, as a armed citizen, are not sanctioned to use lethal force or allowed to be exempt from any state law or statue re: firearms or deadly force. If you want to discuss the moral or ethical issues related to murder or killing(lethal force), Id suggest reading LTC Dave Grossman's non-fiction books: On Killing & On Combat. Grossman, a retired US Army officer & PhD, researched killing, PTSD/stress, skill training(conditioning), and other factors related to death. The US 2A as well as state-local gun laws allow citizens to bear arms or carry weapons for protection. These are lawful and you won't be convicted of criminal charges if you are prudent & understand your legal rights. Last edited by ClydeFrog; July 13, 2013 at 07:52 PM. |
July 13, 2013, 08:05 PM | #28 |
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Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
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It isn't a "Right to Kill", it is the right to prevent from being killed
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July 13, 2013, 09:03 PM | #29 |
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Join Date: June 30, 2013
Location: Kentucky, near Ft Knox
Posts: 153
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If there was a "right to kill" in the world, I'd venture to say that the population would be cut by half.
I'm not a lawyer but I do know my rights as a citizen. I have the right to keep & bear arms, which I do, on my person, every day. I have a right to be secure of my life, property & papers. I have the right NOT to be killed or gravely injured by another person. I have the right to defend my life, property & papers. If I have to defend that, and in that defense, deadly force is used & my attacker is killed, then I know that I will have to face the consequences of my actions. I'm willing to accept that. That being said, I do not wish to take another human life. To do so would be the most repugnant thing I could ever do. |
July 13, 2013, 10:15 PM | #30 |
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Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
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Property....
In my state & in many other juristdictions, you can use lethal force to defend yourself and/or others but you can't use lethal force to protect your property.
For example, if you wake up and hear strange noises, go down to your living room & see a crook holding your HDTV you can't shoot him. If you yell; "GET OUT!" & they flee, you can't open up & shoot them down as they run. Id review the incident in OK City of the small business owner & USAF veteran who shot 2 young stick-up men. The shop owner/pharmacist was convicted for shooting the robbers partly due to the fact that he used excessive force(shooting the wounded subject repeatedly). He's now in prison because he didnt follow OK state laws, re: guns/lethal force. |
July 13, 2013, 11:28 PM | #31 | |
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Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,460
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Quote:
First, that was a daytime robbery of a business, not a home invasion falling under traditional castle doctrine, which looks very favorably on a person's right to defend his home. Most states (I think) seem to pretty much agree that anyone found inside your house without your permission is automatically considered to be a threat and thus is fair game for deadly force, irrespective of whether he's holding your television or a Gatling gun. Second, the pharmacist was convicted because he emptied a second firearm into a wounded (perhaps critically or even fatally) robber long after the threat had ended. If you recall, the pharmacist shot one robber, then chased the second robber out the door and for some distance. Only then did the pharmacist re-enter the store, look at the first robber lying on the floor (off camera because he fell where a counter blocked the camera view, so we don't know if he was moving or not), calmly walked past him to his work area, switched guns, then walked back and emptied the second gun into the already wounded robber. And then he lied about it in his statements to the police. Not a good example at all. |
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July 14, 2013, 06:08 AM | #32 | ||
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Quote:
Relevant excerpts:
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July 18, 2013, 12:27 PM | #33 |
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Join Date: December 2, 2008
Posts: 32
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I had to read the first post several times , and still couldn't get the gist of where the debate was.
It really IS about the words , and words do have specific meanings. There IS a right to self defense , and to certain extent defense of others ( not going into details at this time). In many jurisdictions citizens can lawfully carry firearms, for among various reasons , to assist in self defense. In such situations at times potentially lethal force is justified. This would be a firearm, but could also be other potentially lethal options. When using force in self defense , the goal is to cause the threat to you to cease. If that occurs w/o injury to assailent, fine. If the attack continues , but assailent dies next week in the hospital from complications it didn't acomplish your imeadate goal. The decision making by the defender is as to the type of force used, the ultimate health disposition of the attacker is an indirect byproduct not imeadately known or controled by the defender. Self Defense is a Positive Defense. The defendent acknowledeges that they did particular action delibertly, and that it was justified. This would be if resulted in a death, or various assult charges, or whatever. Anytime a human being dies as result of actions of another human being, it is Homicide. Homicide could be justified or excusable. IT could be a form of Manslaughter ( at least two flavors , some states have additional flavors by statute ). It could be a form of Murder ( at least two , some states also have 3rd degree Homicide by statute. |
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