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Old March 14, 2006, 06:18 AM   #1
BLKLABMAN
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686 and Full Moon's

I have a 4" 686 that I would like to covert, to take full moon clip's. Is this possible? If so, who would you reccommend to do the conversion?
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Old March 14, 2006, 09:19 AM   #2
Rimrod
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If you have enough money anything is possible.

But since no one makes full moon clips for .38/.357 rounds that I know of it is going to take alot of money.

And here is my opinion of full moon clips. You didn't ask for this so you may want to stop reading now. The model 1917 S&Ws and Colts used full moon clips because they were made to fire .45acp rounds. The Military couldn't get enough 1911s for war time production and needed a firearm to fire that round. It is a bad choice if you don't need to go that way. If you have all the rounds clipped together and perform a tactical reload, that is fire a couple of rounds and reload, there is no way your are going to get the unfired rounds back into the gun if you need them. The concept worked great for Jerry Miculek to set his record with and sparked a lot of renewed interest in the idea but in the real world for self defense it is a bad idea. I have a S&W 1917, a model 625 of 1988 and a model 1950 that all use moon clips, I love them but they are not my idea of a combat weapon. I realized it when qualifying with the 625 years ago. And you still have the same problem with half moon and third moon clips too.

So, in my unsolicited opinion, keep the 686 as it is and use speed loaders.
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Old March 14, 2006, 09:35 AM   #3
Jim Watson
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I know something that Rimrod doesn't.
TK Custom sells moonclips and gives contacts for having the cylinder machined.
http://www.moonclips.com/

That said, I don't think it worth the trouble.
Long skinny .357s in clips don't drop into the cylinder like short stubby .45s.
I have had two 686 conversions. I've gone back to speedloaders on one and sold the other... to a guy who uses speedloaders in it. Clips are on the shelf.
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Old March 14, 2006, 05:53 PM   #4
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I would think that if you shot 2 rounds from a 625, did a tactical reload and pocketed the 4good+2shot moonclip and put a new moonclip in the cylinder and shot all six, you could probably get the remaining partial moonclip to reinsert. 45acp is low pressure enough that it won't swell and become impossible to reinsert in a revolver cylinder.

357 is much higher pressure and is very hard to get to reinsert in a revolver cylinder.

I can make really low pressure 38 loads that I don't have to resize after shooting. They might be a good candidate for moonclip-style revolvers, but then again, they ain't nearly as effective as a 357. It would take 3 shots to equal what 1 round of 357 does.
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Old March 14, 2006, 09:51 PM   #5
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Looks like I will stick with speedloaders. I got the idea to use them on the 686 after a guy at the club, bought a new PC 627 converted for full moonclips.
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Old March 15, 2006, 12:28 AM   #6
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The 627 from the performance center comes equipped to shoot moonclips. Some of the competition shooters I compete with in ICORE will load a 38 Short Colt or even a 38 Long Colt which are both shorter than a 38 SPCL. If you think that a moonclipped 38 Spcl is slower than a 625 with full moons, watch Jerry Miculek at the IRC. You will be amazed.

One of my 686's is set for moonclips, 7 shot versions, and it is great to shoot and not too bad to load. I've competed with it during man on man shoots at our local club and held my own against the semi-autos. Moonclips make it convienent, practice makes you fast.

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Old March 15, 2006, 10:47 AM   #7
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My 2 1/2 inch 686 has been converted to moon clips by Paragon Arms and I like it, lots. This is a CCW and I don't use the moon clip for the 6 rounds in the revolver. I do carry a loaded moon clip for a fast reload (like if 12 BGs rush me all at once). The moon clip is great, but it's also just something else to go bad (they get bent up and can bind your cylinder rotation). I think it's just a neat modification to have and you can still load the revolver in the standard ol' traditional way, too.
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Old March 15, 2006, 11:58 AM   #8
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Let me simplify my earlier post.

Moon clips in competition=great. Smith made several fantastic revolvers chambered for the .45acp for competition. Most of them had 6" barrels and patridge front sights, they weren't intended for gunfights.

Moon clips for combat=sux. Even if you can get them back into the gun you will need to call a timeout to do it. Why do you think the .45 auto rim round was made?

Odessastraight let me ask you a hypothetical question. You get into a self defense situation, say at a resturant, bad guy comes out from kitchen and starts shooting, you get an oppurtunity to shoot so you draw and fire 3 rounds, bad guy drops to the floor. You do a tactical reload and put the remaining 3 rounds in pocket. Bad guys partner who just killed the manager comes out of the kitchen and you fire 4 rounds and drop him. What do you do now?
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Old March 15, 2006, 07:20 PM   #9
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HiYa Rimrod,
I wouldn't take the time to save any rounds doing a reload. If I reload then everything goes on the deck, empty or live. I'd reload with the full 6 of the full moon... so "hypothetically" I reckon I'd have at least two moon clips with which to reload...and if I need more than that...like if there is a whole platoon of BGs rushing out of the kitchen, then I reckon I'd have to call in for air support, Arty, or at least 81mm. Why?

OK, if your point is that it would be very tedious to re-insert a partially loaded full moon...or maybe that it would not work to use the three saved loose rounds with a moon clip already in the revolver, I agree... I wouldn't do it.

Last edited by odessastraight; March 15, 2006 at 08:48 PM.
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Old March 15, 2006, 07:40 PM   #10
Guy B. Meredith
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First, remember that even with the $70 or $80 conversion you can still use speedloaders. I recommend Clark Custom, run by Jerry Miculek's in-laws.

Simple fact is that competition shooters other than IDPA are almost exclusively full moonclip users. IDPA represents a prolonged combat situation that most people never see.

After experiencing a PC627 V-comp I received in an ICORE drawing at the International Revolver Championships I converted both my 686+ and M66 to moonclips.

I do not use speedloaders--I trashed my HKS for the 686+ and hold on to the Safariland Comp III for the M66 only in case I want to comply with IDPA.
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Old March 15, 2006, 08:05 PM   #11
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The moon clip doesn't make reloading faster. It makes it more convenient and easier.

The main advantages of a moon clip is the extraction is more reliable and the brass is in one location with easy pickup. When I don't use moon clips I have more problems getting all the brass to get out of the gun so I can reload. Then I have to do the search for all the brass in the grass. Also with the moon clips if 1 or 2 stick they are connected to the rest so it's faster to get them all free with one quick pull on the group.
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Old March 15, 2006, 11:23 PM   #12
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"The moon clip doesn't make reloading faster."

That's quite wrong! Moon clips are LOTS faster than speedloaders, without question.

Personally, I doubt that it matters in "real life" as opposed to games, but the best competion/exhibition revolver shooters are lots faster reloading using full moon clips than speedloaders.
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Old March 16, 2006, 01:22 AM   #13
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I'm sure Miculek uses moonclips for a reason.
They had a short piece on moon clips in the May/June issue of American Handgunner. Writer said the work itself costs about $100.
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Old March 16, 2006, 02:47 AM   #14
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I have seen people reload with speed loaders just as fast as moon clips but it takes a lot more practice and I wouldn't be able to do it. The rounds go into the gun just as fast but it is harder to do consistantly. With a moon clip you let gravity help, with a spring loaded speedloader the rounds are pushed in faster that gravity can pull them in. That could make a tenth of a second difference.

The big difference that I see is when you need to eject all the brass as fast as you can before you can get the next set of round into the gun. In that case the moon clip makes things a lot easier also.

I know I could be wrong but I am speaking from observation and there are Master class shooters that agree with me.

It dosn't make me correct but it's worth thinking about. I vote for moon clips myself. I enjoy shooting and not spending all my time practicing with speed loaders.
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Old March 16, 2006, 05:04 AM   #15
Lloyd Smale
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tk moonclips has done work for me and they did a fine job. Dont know about the pros but im twice as fast with moonclips as i am with a speed loader.
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Old March 16, 2006, 06:19 AM   #16
Rimrod
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I guess we all agree then.

Full moon clips are a lot faster than speedloaders. In competition you carry as many as you can and toss the whole thing when you reload, empty or not, time is the key issue. But in CCW how many do you take along and where do you keep them? I have seen competition shooters with magazines almost all the way around their waist, they wouldn't do that for CCW.

Think about how you dress when you go out for an evening with the Mrs., or Miss. if that is the case. How many moon clips are you going to have? And where are they going to be?

As for competition, why do you think I own the model of 1950? It originally had a 6" barrel and was cut down to 4". It's a beauty.

And thanks for the respose Odessastraight. The last thing I would want to do is toss away a few rounds I might need later, which is not a problem in competition. Personally I would have been heading for the door as I was reloading the first time. But you don't know where the Bad guys are in real life, you don't get a chance to make a dry run ahead of time and decide when and where you will make your reloads. You just do it.
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Old March 16, 2006, 08:51 AM   #17
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He works on S&W revolvers for competition: http://www.sdmfabricating.com/
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Old March 16, 2006, 02:21 PM   #18
John C
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How do you tactical reload w/a revolver?

This is a serious question. I'm only familiar with autos, so please forgive me if this is old hat. How does one tactical reload with a revolver NOT using moonclips? Do you eject all the casings and live rounds in your hand, and sort out the live rounds before putting them in your pocket? Or do you shove the casings and rounds in your pocket, to try and fish out the live rounds later? Each of these seems a poor solution to the problem.

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Old March 16, 2006, 02:47 PM   #19
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John,

That's a good question. Most everyone I know uses moon clips so we don't think about it. I remember when I didn't have moon clips yet that I could open the cylinder and tilt the gun up and the live rounds that are heavier and haven't expanded yet would fall out in my hand. Then I could push the ejector and drop the empty brass on the ground. While dropping the brass I put the live round in my pocket, grab the speed loader and reload.
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Old March 16, 2006, 07:27 PM   #20
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I'd be hard pressed to find references now, but I'v read (more than once) about cops being killed (some time ago when revolvers were the #1 service sidearm) after emptying their .38 spent brass into their hand because that was the way they were trained to do it at the pistol range. It seems incredulous that someone would face incoming fire with an empty revolver in one hand and a handfull of brass in the other, but one does revert to basic training under stress.

I'd say just to forget about a "routine" tactical reload where you might sort a live round, or two from the empties. Any kind of reload will be based on your best judgement. If you must reload I really can't see taking the time and loss of situational awareness to sort live rounds from empties...just dump 'em all and reload a fresh cylinder full.

Yep, like has been written above, in IPSC it's common to reload whenever there is a slight break in engaging targets, often in a string of fire involving many (20+ shots, sometimes) rounds...but, like also was written, we're not talking about a game, but rather a quick and violent firefight with our CCW.

My plan is to shoot to stop the other fellow(S) and to keep shooting until he/they are down and out. If I run dry (hopefully I'm trained well enough to count my shots) I'll reload with my full moon and keep shooting or, if done, stay aware of the situation while I call 911 to come and take away the body(ies).
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Old March 16, 2006, 07:47 PM   #21
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FYI, y'all, our very own Wildalaska does moonclip conversions.

wildwestguns.com
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Old March 16, 2006, 08:19 PM   #22
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IDPA's a little backwards and doesn't recognize the reality of moonclips in real life, nor does it recognize 7- and 8-shot revolvers. The latter is good for home defense for those that need the extra rounds. Most 8-shot S&Ws come with moonclips, too.
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Old March 18, 2006, 08:33 AM   #23
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I personally like the moon clips. I've owned an S&W1917 in the past and currently own a Taurus 905 9mm(5-shot). I don't know about .38/.357, but Ranch Products makes 1/4 Moon clips for the .45ACP that hold two at a time. The "Tactical Reload" can be performed with these by removing only the rounds fired and replacing them two at a time.

Quote:
How many moon clips are you going to have? And where are they going to be?
I found that I could carry two moon clips in a pouch that would only hold one speedloader for an N-frame. And I can get three 905 clips in a J or K-frame sized pouch.
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Old March 18, 2006, 08:00 PM   #24
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There are two tactical reload techniques for revolvers

The one described by bdcc11 is for reloading from speedloaders.

If loading single rounds or from speed strips tilt the barrel down, partially eject the rounds and release the ejector. The fired rounds will remain raised while the unfired rounds will drop back down. Remove the fired rounds and replace with fresh ones.
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Old March 19, 2006, 09:31 AM   #25
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odessastraight?

The only incident I remember hearing about a slain officer found holding empty brass was the "Newhall Incident", probably because it was so publicized. Do you remember the details of any other cases you heard of?
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