Clays equivalent to Bullseye

StrawDog · May 30, 2010, 09:48 PM

I've been loading 45 cal with 4.1gr of Bullseye and a Rainier 200gr electroplated SWC. I'm looking for an equivalent load with Clays, my goal is to find something cleaner. My first approx is 3.6gr. Will quickload provide this? Or better yet I'd bet someone here has experience with this.
Thanks

sc928porsche · May 30, 2010, 09:59 PM

Bullseye is definately a "dirty" powder, but it works well.

totaldla · May 30, 2010, 10:08 PM

Look it up.

StrawDog · May 30, 2010, 10:09 PM

Yes I'm happy with the load - except the dirt. So I hoped another fast burning powder would perform as well but burn cleaner.

ScottRiqui · May 30, 2010, 10:13 PM

Do you mean .45 ACP? Lee's "Modern Reloading" has loads using Clays.

200 gr jacketed bullet:
3.9 gr min / 4.3 gr max
1.155" OAL

200 gr lead bullet:
3.6 gr min / 4.3 gr max
1.225" OAL

dwhite · May 31, 2010, 05:29 PM

I use Clays with lead bullets in .40 with good results. It's even clean with light loads in 38 Special. Watch the charge weights. Clays is probably one of the least forgiving powders out there for sudden pressure spikes. In .40 I use it for light to mid-range loads only.

One thing I really like about Clays is that it meters within +/- 0.1 grain in my Lee Perfect Powder Measure down to 3.0 grain charge weights.

All the Best,
D. White

**Unclenick** · May 31, 2010, 06:39 PM

StrawDog,

There is no equivalent, per se, nor can there be. Here's the deal: a fast powder burns up before the bullet has moved very far into the barrel, so all of its gas is created in a small volume: that of the space in the case behind the bullet. A slower powder make its gas in a bigger volume because the bullet has moved forward by the time the pressure peaks, so the space behind it is part case and part bore, or at least is a greater length of case. That additional space that is created as a bullet moves forward is called the "expansion" in interior ballistics.

So, if you put an amount of Clays, which is faster burning than Bullseye, into a cartridge that produces the same total gas volume as a given charge of Bullseye, the clays will produce higher pressure because, being quicker, it makes that same gas volume in a smaller space. The Bullseye will let the bullet move forward some before it finishes making gas, so its gas, even if it is the same total amount as is made by the Clays, never is compressed in as small a volume as is the gas made by the faster burning Clays.

The result of the above is: You can choose loads of Clays and Bullseye that make the same peak pressure, but because Clays does it in a smaller volume, it does it with less total gas so that by the time the bullet gets to the muzzle, that smaller gas volume will be producing less pressure. So the average pressure experienced by the bullet base is lower than with Bullseye. That is despite the fact it produced the same peak pressure in its smaller space. Since total acceleration of the bullet is done by the average pressure at its base during its time in the barrel, the velocity produced by an equal peak pressure load of Clays will be lower than that produced by an equal peak pressure load of Bullseye.

Bottom line:

A quantity of Clays that produces the same peak pressure as a quantity of Bullseye will result in lower muzzle velocity.

A quantity of Clays that produces the same velocity as a different quantity of Bullseye, will produce a higher peak pressure than the Bullseye did.

The above explains why powders with different burning rates exist. They allow you to find a rate that gives you the most velocity for the lowest peak pressure. Powders either faster or slower than the right balance will give you less velocity within safe pressure limits. Period. In this instance, Clays is too much faster than Bullseye for the best balance of speed and pressure in .45 ACP. Clays will make you give up some velocity within the pressure limits of the .45 ACP cartridge.

If you are just looking for target velocity loads in 700's of feet per second, that compromise may be perfectly acceptable or may even be advantageous. Yes, the maximum velocity you can obtain is lower, but you get lower velocities with lower recoil that still have high enough peak pressures to operate the firearm's semi-automatic load cycle properly.

However, if you don't want to give up velocity and are actually looking for a cleaner burning powder that can produce the same velocities as Bullseye, try Hodgdon Universal Clays. Increase the Bullseye charge weight about 5% to get the same velocity from Universal. It is cleaner and the peak pressure is slightly lower. It will not reduce recoil, however.

Shoney · May 31, 2010, 08:07 PM

Woe be it for me to contradict the venerate Unclenick, but of the 4 best burn rate charts I have, the only one that lists Clays as faster burning than Bullseye is Hodgdon.

ADI lists the Clays as slower than Bullseye. ADI is a powder manufacturer, while Hodgdon is only a distributor. I would trust ADI's at

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/burnrates.html

StrawDog · June 1, 2010, 04:15 AM

The notion of equivalence was from an external viewpoint, same velocity. This should be in neighborhood of 700 ft/s from a 5" 1911A1 style weapon. Which is well below max pressures, in a range suitable for punching paper. I'd thought someone might have some data beyond the tables which I used for my first calculation of 3.6gr. Thanks for the comments

May 30, 2010, 09:48 PM	#1
StrawDog Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2005 Posts: 168	Clays equivalent to Bullseye I've been loading 45 cal with 4.1gr of Bullseye and a Rainier 200gr electroplated SWC. I'm looking for an equivalent load with Clays, my goal is to find something cleaner. My first approx is 3.6gr. Will quickload provide this? Or better yet I'd bet someone here has experience with this. Thanks

May 30, 2010, 09:59 PM	#2
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	Bullseye is definately a "dirty" powder, but it works well. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

May 30, 2010, 10:08 PM	#3
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,296	Look it up. __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

May 31, 2010, 06:39 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	StrawDog, There is no equivalent, per se, nor can there be. Here's the deal: a fast powder burns up before the bullet has moved very far into the barrel, so all of its gas is created in a small volume: that of the space in the case behind the bullet. A slower powder make its gas in a bigger volume because the bullet has moved forward by the time the pressure peaks, so the space behind it is part case and part bore, or at least is a greater length of case. That additional space that is created as a bullet moves forward is called the "expansion" in interior ballistics. So, if you put an amount of Clays, which is faster burning than Bullseye, into a cartridge that produces the same total gas volume as a given charge of Bullseye, the clays will produce higher pressure because, being quicker, it makes that same gas volume in a smaller space. The Bullseye will let the bullet move forward some before it finishes making gas, so its gas, even if it is the same total amount as is made by the Clays, never is compressed in as small a volume as is the gas made by the faster burning Clays. The result of the above is: You can choose loads of Clays and Bullseye that make the same peak pressure, but because Clays does it in a smaller volume, it does it with less total gas so that by the time the bullet gets to the muzzle, that smaller gas volume will be producing less pressure. So the average pressure experienced by the bullet base is lower than with Bullseye. That is despite the fact it produced the same peak pressure in its smaller space. Since total acceleration of the bullet is done by the average pressure at its base during its time in the barrel, the velocity produced by an equal peak pressure load of Clays will be lower than that produced by an equal peak pressure load of Bullseye. Bottom line: A quantity of Clays that produces the same peak pressure as a quantity of Bullseye will result in lower muzzle velocity. A quantity of Clays that produces the same velocity as a different quantity of Bullseye, will produce a higher peak pressure than the Bullseye did. The above explains why powders with different burning rates exist. They allow you to find a rate that gives you the most velocity for the lowest peak pressure. Powders either faster or slower than the right balance will give you less velocity within safe pressure limits. Period. In this instance, Clays is too much faster than Bullseye for the best balance of speed and pressure in .45 ACP. Clays will make you give up some velocity within the pressure limits of the .45 ACP cartridge. If you are just looking for target velocity loads in 700's of feet per second, that compromise may be perfectly acceptable or may even be advantageous. Yes, the maximum velocity you can obtain is lower, but you get lower velocities with lower recoil that still have high enough peak pressures to operate the firearm's semi-automatic load cycle properly. However, if you don't want to give up velocity and are actually looking for a cleaner burning powder that can produce the same velocities as Bullseye, try Hodgdon Universal Clays. Increase the Bullseye charge weight about 5% to get the same velocity from Universal. It is cleaner and the peak pressure is slightly lower. It will not reduce recoil, however. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 31, 2010, 08:07 PM	#8
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Woe be it for me to contradict the venerate Unclenick, but of the 4 best burn rate charts I have, the only one that lists Clays as faster burning than Bullseye is Hodgdon. ADI lists the Clays as slower than Bullseye. ADI is a powder manufacturer, while Hodgdon is only a distributor. I would trust ADI's at http://www.gsgroup.co.za/burnrates.html __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

May 30, 2010, 10:09 PM	#4
StrawDog Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2005 Posts: 168	Yes I'm happy with the load - except the dirt. So I hoped another fast burning powder would perform as well but burn cleaner.

May 30, 2010, 10:13 PM	#5
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Do you mean .45 ACP? Lee's "Modern Reloading" has loads using Clays. 200 gr jacketed bullet: 3.9 gr min / 4.3 gr max 1.155" OAL 200 gr lead bullet: 3.6 gr min / 4.3 gr max 1.225" OAL

May 31, 2010, 05:29 PM	#6
dwhite Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2007 Location: Wake County, N. Carolina Posts: 379	I use Clays with lead bullets in .40 with good results. It's even clean with light loads in 38 Special. Watch the charge weights. Clays is probably one of the least forgiving powders out there for sudden pressure spikes. In .40 I use it for light to mid-range loads only. One thing I really like about Clays is that it meters within +/- 0.1 grain in my Lee Perfect Powder Measure down to 3.0 grain charge weights. All the Best, D. White

June 1, 2010, 04:15 AM	#9
StrawDog Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2005 Posts: 168	The notion of equivalence was from an external viewpoint, same velocity. This should be in neighborhood of 700 ft/s from a 5" 1911A1 style weapon. Which is well below max pressures, in a range suitable for punching paper. I'd thought someone might have some data beyond the tables which I used for my first calculation of 3.6gr. Thanks for the comments