Dumb question on Browning O/U's....

[jaughtman]

What is the main difference between a Browning Superposed and a Citori?

J

[gaseousclay]

i'm gonna take a wild guess and assume it's the inletting of the stock

[zippy13]

IIRC, They are a world apart. Citoris are made for Browning in Japan, Superposed by FN of Belgium.

[natman]

Two completely different guns. Both O/Us, but the Superposed was designed by John M. Browning and was built in Belgium. The Citori is much newer and is built in Japan.

[Waterengineer]

BigJim should be along any moment for a full explanation.

[BigJimP]

Its not a dumb question ....a lot of shooters don't realize what the differences are ....

Personally, I think the Citori's are a well made gun / taking nothing away from the Superposed models ...but Miroku, in Japan, is making some very nice guns - under the Citori lineup - especially when you get up into the grade IV - VII guns .....

I'm a big Browning fan ( and I own well over a dozen of their shotguns) ...but I'm not overly impressed by the Superposed ... Is it a better balanced gun than the Citori - sure, probably .... but it isn't 10 times better !!

the Browning custom shop in Belgium will be happy to take your order for a superposed ....

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...stom/index.asp

but when you get into that kind of prices for a shotgun ...names like Kolar and Krieghoff get real competitive as well ....


Ok, Waterengineer ....how'd I do .... / acceptable ...??

[oneounceload]

As mentioned, the Citori is the Japanese version of the JMB design, while the Superposed is the original made in Belgium. While identical in features, the Belgian guns have , IMO, MUCH better barrels, and up until a few years ago, only came with fixed chokes - but those chokes are on parallel with Perazzi fixed chokes and are known for the patterns they deliver. The balance of the Belgian guns is different due to the barrel differences. Not saying the Japanese guns are bad - they're not by any means - but if you get a chance to inspect both, I suspect you will notice the subtle differences

[BigJimP]

and part of this ....is why there are so many different shotguns out there on the market .... and something for everyone ..../ and why we debate this issue of price and mfg's ....and what makes a good gun for the money ....

Beretta
Browning
Blazer
Perazzi
Kolar
Krieghoff
etc ......are all making very good guns ....(and I am not trying to start a fight about why I didn't list Ruger, SKB, Mossberg, Remington, etc ) ....

Browning - makes little or nothing these days/its really more of a marketing company...... but the Superposed line of guns is very desireable ( but my buddy OneOunce likes them more than I do ... ) ... -- / the Browning Citori lineup now has at least 25 models / the Browning Cynergy lineup now has at least 15 models .... / and Browning bought Winchester a few years ago ....and now FN Corp owns Browning - Winchester ....
/ and on and on it goes .....
To some extent - it depends on how deep your pockets are / what you really want in a shotgun ....

[jaughtman]

I have found one that is in decent shape except for the wood (it is worn - not cracked or split or anything) - and it has had removable Briley chokes installed. They "only" want 699 for it, and for an additional $100 I can take it to a gunsmith who will totally refinish the wood - putting me about 800 for it. I bird hunt a couple times a year and have always wanted a nice OU, but just can not pay what a new one costs. However, our gunshop ALSO has Citoris NEW on sale for around 1000 so I was wondering if the Superposed was that much better/more desirable to have a used one for now too much less than a new Citori. Now, give it to me on my idea....

J

[johnbt]

I don't think the Browning Co. actually made any guns after 1883, did they? First he sold/licensed his designs to Winchester and then in 1897 he contracted with FN. During WWII when Belgium was occupied, Remington made the A-5 for Browning. Smart businessman, low overhead.

And you left out Guerini, too.

John

[oneounceload]

If it was ME...........(and BigJim is right, I DO like the Belgians more, even if my wallet only allows me Japanese ones) - I would be looking REAL hard at the Belgian. HOWEVER, you really need to know when it was made, as Browning made a HUGE error in the late 60's through early 70's.......the era known as the "salt wood" era - those are gun that need a major inspection to look for rust.

What happened was demand was outstripping supply, so someone got the bright idea to create a salt curing process for the walnut to speed up the drying time. Unfortunately, the salt also rusts the steel in contact with it. Part of the inspection is pulling the butt pad and seeing what the screws look like, then - if possible - pulling the stock to check the receiver for corrosion. IF your gun is not from that era, no biggie, if it is, but it is in good condition - you're good to go.

Try them both on for size; but if the difference in price is only $200, nd you like the newer one, get it

[BigJimP]

We need to know which model of Citori you're considering ... there are about 25 models ....??

If you're looking at a new or older version of the Citori Lightning ...that lists new now for around $ 1,869 / selling for around $ 1,600 - $ 1,700 ...maybe the shop is making you a deal / maybe not ...

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...tning-firearms

I think in general, the Citori Lightning is an entry level Citori - and while a very strong gun mechanically - it has a lot of drop at comb and at the heel / and its a little light - consequently doesn't fit most shooters very well / at least without some comb pads / or maybe an adjustable butt plate ( Jones pad..).

In general, a decision between the Citori Lightning vs a Superposed - go with the superposed.... But $ 699 for a superposed makes me a little nervous ( its pretty cheap ) ...so the issues may be more than just cosmetic. On the other hand - a new in the box Citori Lightning - is worth more than $1,000 too ...so something isn't right there either.

I'd suggest you visit some other shops - compare what they have / try and get out to a gun club - get a better feel for the Citori lineup of guns / you'll probably see a number of different models out there - the XS Skeet, the 625 series, the XT, the Lightning ...etc ...

Personally, the Citori XS Skeet - with the adj comb and 30" barrels - is one of the most versatile guns they make / because it has so many built in adjustments - and characteristics - it will fit a lot of shooters. But the Citori XS Skeet now is listing new for around $ 3,300 / selling for about $ 3,000 probably ....
http://www.browning.com/products/cat...-comb-firearms

and I'm not trying to rain on your parade / only educate you that just because its a "Citori" -- doesn't mean all Citori's are created equal / or as adjustable / or will "Fit" all shooters .... Its not just the fancier wood on the XS Skeet that makes it sell for $ 3,000 ....

So you need to learn a little more about both guns you're considering - before we can really help you .../ the different models / what's out there on the used market ...

Just a note -- but a friend of my son's - just bought a used Citori Lightning - made in 1986 ( 24 yrs old ) .../ 28", 12ga / and it has the original Invector screw in chokes - not the newer Invector Plus. It has a number of scratches on it / handling marks - no case, no extra choke tubes ...and in my area, he was very lucky to get that gun for $ 750. Extra screw in chokes are about $ 40 each / a hard case is another $ 200 -- so he's going to get about $ 1,250 tied up in that gun before he even shoots it .... In 1986 / that gun sold new for around $ 600 .... I still think he made a decent deal / but its not the Citori XS Skeet model either ....

[publius]

jaughtman, I would get the Superposed. it's a little cheaper and handles better and has slightly better fit& finish in my opinion. The only thing that would ever make me consider the Citori over the Super would be if I planned on putting lots of rounds through it on the skeet range. citori's are said to be a little stronger, (the truth is unknown.) Being as you want a hunting gun it's a non-issue unless you move to Argentina and dove hunt everyday.

[jaughtman]

Serial # puts it as a 1957 manufactor date....I am "this close" to making the deal....pics to follow if I do.

J

[mes227]

I recently bought a 1980 Citori 12 ga/3" Hunter 30" barrel, fixed modified/full chokes. Paid $825. It's in excellent shape and I was happy with that price and it's a great gun.

[Microgunner]

Originally Posted by jaughtman

Serial # puts it as a 1957 manufactor date....I am "this close" to making the deal....pics to follow if I do.

First year of Citori is 1973.

[eastbank]

i have a older 28 inch brls 12ga browning o/u, a newer citori 12ga 3 inch with invector chokes 26 inch brls, a browning BT-100 with 34 inch brl with invictor plus chokes and adjustabl comb, and a valmit 12ga 3 inch with 26 inch brls that i put rem chokes in it. i hunt small game with the older browning, sporting clays and five stand with the newer citori and turkey with the valmit, for trap i used the bt-100. i am satisfied with all of them. eastbank.

[jaughtman]

First year of Citori is 1973.

Yes. The one I am talking about is a Superposed.

J

[Microgunner]

Originally Posted by jaughtman

Yes. The one I am talking about is a Superposed.

Oops...I got confused with all those twice barreled shotgun model #s bouncing around. I'd kill for a Superposed.

[clang]

I've owned Citoris and a couple of Superposed. I shoot the Superposed better (still have one), but you have to know what you are looking at when purchasing a used Superposed:

Salt Wood guns - some Superposeds from about '64-'69 used salt cured wood for the stocks. The salt causes severe rust under the wood and may not be very noticeable from the outside of the gun. Value for salt wood era guns are lower than others even if they don't have salt wood. People worry.

Round knob, long tang guns are the ones preferred by purists. I like them too, but it is a personal preference thing.

Superposed guns like to RUST. I use mine hunting and if you look at it funny it rusts. Use lots of oil protectant before and after taking them out.

Superposeds typically do not have screw in chokes. Not a problem for me because the one gun I still have is Imp Cyl/Mod, and works for the hunting I do. If someone put screw in chokes in the gun, you stand the chance of them being incorrectly installed and both barrels of the gun may not shoot where you are pointing. You need to fire the gun at paper to determine this.

You should not shoot steel from most Superposed guns - it can loosen the ribs and it will cost you $400 or so to have them rejoined. If you think the previous owner shot steel -walk away from the gun.

Citoris are fine with steel, most have screw in chokes and do not rust like the Superposed. But they feel more blocky to me and are too heavy for all day carry (I like my gun to be 6.5 lb - 7 lb - my Superposed is 7 lb 3 oz). I haven't shot a Citori in the past few years, so I don't know if things have changed.