Two questions-the history of shotguns

DARTH 44 · November 10, 2002, 02:31 PM

1.What was the first double barreled shotgun equipped with
automatic ejectors,and what year was it introduced?

2.I`ve always thought Winchester `97 was the first pump
action shotgun.....until I saw photo of a pump signed
"Stevens Model 1882"I`d like some info this gun.
Years of manufacture,gauges,capacity,sumtin`bout its
ruggedness and reliability if possible.

Regards

Jim Watson · November 10, 2002, 03:22 PM

1. W.W. Greener said the J. Needham was the first ejector double, in 1874. Most other ejector systems were developments of the Needham design.

2. The Spencer is usually said to be the first pump shotgun, model of 1882. Mostly 12 gauge, a few 10s. I don't know the capacity for sure, probably five or six. Reports of its serviceability vary. It was certainly not up to the Winchester, and only lasted until 1887 when the company folded. Bannerman sold the remaining inventory while it lasted. Winchester first brought out a Browning - design pump in 1893. It was upgraded into the 1897.

I find no mention of an 1882 Stevens. Could there be confusion with the Spencer? It was a "hammerless" gun with a release lever that looked like a reversed trigger in the front of the trigger guard. The foreend-pump handle was very small. The first Stevens pump I could find was the Model 200 of 1910.

brownlow · November 11, 2002, 11:58 AM

Or, if you really want, do some research for a Lever-Action Shotgun.

Model 1887 and 1901 designed by JWB.

I'm still waiting for the replicas to come out, though I've seen a few originals.

WGBV

DARTH 44 · November 12, 2002, 04:17 PM

I called my buddy(btw,he`s who showed me the photo)to make
sure what shotgun that was.
That was Spencer indeed!
I`ve been gunnut since I was 12,and I made such a stupid
mistake!

Seems I had some kind of "brain eclipse"

As to lever action shotguns,I`ve read the Winnie`87 had
fragile i.e. breakable mainspring,and that it was corrected in the
10ga model 1901.Did they go to coil spring or redesigned the
whole internal mechanism?

Oh! Thanks for the replies
Regards

DARTH 44 · November 12, 2002, 04:20 PM

One more thing.If there were ejector doubles available in
19th century,why aren`t they allowed in CAS?

Jim Watson · November 12, 2002, 04:26 PM

I think the reason CAS does not allow ejector DB shotguns was that the Wild Bunch considers it unlikely that many such guns could have made it from the Old World to the Wild West during the Frontier Era. And that the few that did would have been too expensive for a cowboy to afford.

But they liked the movie so much that they named themselves for it and so have to allow pumps, which were not available until the West was somewhat less wild.

brownlow · November 13, 2002, 03:18 PM

The problems within the original 1887 were (mostly) solved in the 1901. They had to do with the reliability and durability with the internal mechanism. However, they were only made in 10 ga.

The problems have been solved by metalurgy, which as you can guess, has improved in the past 100 years.

The replica guns are being made in 12 ga, but to the same (proportional) specs as the 1901.

The guns themselves are great, you can drop two shells in the top, close the lever and it will chamber one and slide the other in the mag.

They are 4+1 if memory serves.

WGBV

DARTH 44 · November 24, 2002, 10:20 AM

Interesing info.
Thanks.

As to the Winchester 1901 (10ga) I think to be a 4+1 it must
have had chamber somewhat shorter than today`s 3,5".
I suppose the 1901 fired 3" or even 2 7/8" shells.
Whatcha think?

November 10, 2002, 02:31 PM	#1
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	Two questions-the history of shotguns 1.What was the first double barreled shotgun equipped with automatic ejectors,and what year was it introduced? 2.I`ve always thought Winchester `97 was the first pump action shotgun.....until I saw photo of a pump signed "Stevens Model 1882"I`d like some info this gun. Years of manufacture,gauges,capacity,sumtin`bout its ruggedness and reliability if possible. Regards __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers

November 11, 2002, 11:58 AM	#3
brownlow Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2002 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 117	Or, if you really want, do some research for a Lever-Action Shotgun. Model 1887 and 1901 designed by JWB. I'm still waiting for the replicas to come out, though I've seen a few originals. WGBV __________________ Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. -Pericles

November 12, 2002, 04:17 PM	#4
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	I called my buddy(btw,he`s who showed me the photo)to make sure what shotgun that was. That was Spencer indeed! I`ve been gunnut since I was 12,and I made such a stupid mistake! Seems I had some kind of "brain eclipse" As to lever action shotguns,I`ve read the Winnie`87 had fragile i.e. breakable mainspring,and that it was corrected in the 10ga model 1901.Did they go to coil spring or redesigned the whole internal mechanism? Oh! Thanks for the replies Regards __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers

November 12, 2002, 04:20 PM	#5
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	One more thing.If there were ejector doubles available in 19th century,why aren`t they allowed in CAS? __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers

November 13, 2002, 03:18 PM	#7
brownlow Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2002 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 117	The problems within the original 1887 were (mostly) solved in the 1901. They had to do with the reliability and durability with the internal mechanism. However, they were only made in 10 ga. The problems have been solved by metalurgy, which as you can guess, has improved in the past 100 years. The replica guns are being made in 12 ga, but to the same (proportional) specs as the 1901. The guns themselves are great, you can drop two shells in the top, close the lever and it will chamber one and slide the other in the mag. They are 4+1 if memory serves. WGBV __________________ Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. -Pericles

November 10, 2002, 03:22 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	1. W.W. Greener said the J. Needham was the first ejector double, in 1874. Most other ejector systems were developments of the Needham design. 2. The Spencer is usually said to be the first pump shotgun, model of 1882. Mostly 12 gauge, a few 10s. I don't know the capacity for sure, probably five or six. Reports of its serviceability vary. It was certainly not up to the Winchester, and only lasted until 1887 when the company folded. Bannerman sold the remaining inventory while it lasted. Winchester first brought out a Browning - design pump in 1893. It was upgraded into the 1897. I find no mention of an 1882 Stevens. Could there be confusion with the Spencer? It was a "hammerless" gun with a release lever that looked like a reversed trigger in the front of the trigger guard. The foreend-pump handle was very small. The first Stevens pump I could find was the Model 200 of 1910.

November 12, 2002, 04:26 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I think the reason CAS does not allow ejector DB shotguns was that the Wild Bunch considers it unlikely that many such guns could have made it from the Old World to the Wild West during the Frontier Era. And that the few that did would have been too expensive for a cowboy to afford. But they liked the movie so much that they named themselves for it and so have to allow pumps, which were not available until the West was somewhat less wild.

November 24, 2002, 10:20 AM	#8
DARTH 44 Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 138	Interesing info. Thanks. As to the Winchester 1901 (10ga) I think to be a 4+1 it must have had chamber somewhat shorter than today`s 3,5". I suppose the 1901 fired 3" or even 2 7/8" shells. Whatcha think? __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed,unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" JAMES MADISON - The Federalist Papers