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Old January 18, 2015, 05:41 PM   #26
Hillbilly Jim
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The problem is we [gun people] rubbed their noses in this use of the arm brace. Tv programs showing shoulder fired arm braces, u-tube, gun writers in gun mags saying this was a lot cheaper than a tax stamp, etc etc.
Thumbing your nose at the man will get you and everyone else in trouble.
I hope they withdraw this letter, but i doubt it.
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Old January 18, 2015, 06:09 PM   #27
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LOL I keep telling people this is risky business, they don't listen.
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Old January 18, 2015, 09:44 PM   #28
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So, now we have a letter claiming that your AR-pistol with a Sig-brace both is and is not an NFA SBR...depending on how you hold it.

I don't see how any plain text reading of "redesign" can include things where the physical properties of the object are completely unchanged.
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Old January 18, 2015, 09:59 PM   #29
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Risky for who?

The ATF isn't going trolling to arrest thousands of brace users. They don't have to - almost every "gun Nazi" at a range or out in the field will do the job for them just to exercise their ego as a know it all.

Plenty of others are in a panic attempting to hide whatever connection they ever had with one.

Not great character references in either case.

Be advised a significant number of pistol owners with or without braces have very little concern about it at all. Simple numbers - individually we are more likely to suffer injury in a car accident than prosecution for shouldering something that one letter says is legal and another says isn't. When the dust settles then it will simply offer another challenge to get around the law.

There was no reason or precedent to pass the NFA, and there's none to keep it.

In matters of legality the resourcefulness of the human mind can always invent new designs.
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Old January 18, 2015, 10:05 PM   #30
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I don't see this lasting if it is challenged. Redesigning a firearm by simply firing it a certain way? Does bump firing an AK turn it into a machine gun? Maybe I shouldn't give them ideas
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Old January 18, 2015, 10:13 PM   #31
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First it was legal and the ATF didn't care how you used the brace.

Now, it's only legal (non-NFA) if you do not intend to use the brace as a stock. This means as soon as the brace brushes against your shoulder, you are a FELON and can get 10 years in prison. lol

Watch next month the ATF will say if you even think about putting the brace on your shoulder it constitutes "constructive possession".
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Old January 19, 2015, 12:13 AM   #32
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The ATF isn't going trolling to arrest thousands of brace users.
Nope. They just have to prosecute one person, and the chilling effects will be clear.
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Old January 19, 2015, 02:18 PM   #33
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The entire thing is just stupid.....as are 98.99999999% of firearms laws
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Old January 19, 2015, 03:38 PM   #34
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I have to wonder, when this comes to criminal trial, if the defense holds up two physically identical pistols with the brace and declares that one is perfectly legal and the other is punishable by 10 years in prison, the jury has to decide which is which and given no indication of how it was used by the defendant.

Or hold up a screwdriver and ask the jury what it was. If they answered "screwdriver" the defense could just say "Wrong! Its a hammer according to the ATF, because the defendant pounded some tacks in with it."

What sensible person in their right mind would entertain such ridiculous arguments.

By the ATF's standards ANY item can change its own physical design by use. I can use a rock to hold down a tarp, or I could use a rock to smash a window, is it still a rock?

"Use" in legal terms should only come into play when an item is used to infringe upon the rights of others. Like when a person uses a baseball bat to assault another person.
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Old January 19, 2015, 11:16 PM   #35
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They just have to prosecute one person, and the chilling effects will be clear.
There is also the very real legal avenue of getting a judgment of declaratory relief: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ratory-relief/

A lot of companies are at the Vegas SHOT Show and they have money in selling braces and brace equipped pistols which were predicated on the ATF's previous decisions. If anything what the ATF did was classic political manipulation - they dumped a negative PR release on the media late Friday when nobody could reply at the office, and they did it when? Just before the SHOT Show. Who else would know of exactly how many new products they themselves had to review for business plans, machinery, equipment, supplies, materials, and cash money commitment?

Every brace seems to be a SBR stamp not sold, they are the regulatory agency that not only says what is legal but also sells the stamp to make it so.

Telling businesses on one hand it's ok and then at the last minute before a national sales event to offer the products to buyers, no, is being arbitrary and capricious. And there is likely a Federal judge who would have no problem with establishing to the ATF that once again they, the judge, can make the final decision.

It's happened before, and likely a hot topic of conversation in the convention halls right now.

So crying "the sky is falling the sky is falling only one guy has to be prosecuted!" seems to be doing the ATF's work for them free. The odds of being 'that guy' is very much less than being in a traffic accident tomorrow. And the ATF looking to punish just that one guy is only going to accelerate support for him.

Which is it supposed to be - citizens afraid of their government, or a government who is obedient to the citizens who formed it? Frankly, I don't much think of those who are afraid of their government. They have already given up - which is exactly how an oppressive government stays in power.
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Old January 19, 2015, 11:51 PM   #36
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ugh.....I never really wanted one of these, but I better hurry up and get one in case I feel the need in the future. surely it wo't be long before they are banned for sale completely, hopefully the prices don't immediately reflect the new ruling

anydifference between the gen1 and gen2 braces besides looks and 20$
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Old January 20, 2015, 12:36 AM   #37
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Since we have two threads and the other closed... I will reply here, and just pick up where I was.

9X19:
Quote:
But that letter was in regards to a pistol that had a device added... not about a Glock with no additions.

Again, firing your Glock with both hands while held.against your shoulder... no problem... add a second vertical grip to the rail, or a stock-shaped "brace" to the rear... and do the same...ATFE NOW sees either addition as subject to NFA regulation.
What about pistols that have the brace installed at the factory?

They come equipped as pistols with this brace. It came as part of the design. Sure, AR pistols came before the brace, but we don't say that extended beavertail grip safeties on 1911s are not part of the pistols design when you get a factory pistol with one... just because the original design had no beavertail.

So we can establish that any AR pistol or similar setup, that comes equipped with a brace from the manufacture is set up and designed as a pistol and is legally a pistol in that configuration.

So now, simply holding that pistol incorrectly by placing the arm brace against your shoulder is illegal.

The ATF made no such distinction between assembled and factory equipped...

By their logic, taken at its face value... simply holding a pistol against your shoulder makes it a SBR. It "redesigns" the firearm, simply by the manner in which you hold it.
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Old January 20, 2015, 12:56 AM   #38
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/SIG-SAUER-SB...43173924?rt=nc

just ordered the gen 2, have no use for it. I hate "panics"....I fall for them everytime'

can throw it on the 300BLK pistl, but I actually like the padded tube. maybe i'll save it for my 9mm build for the wife. looks cool anyway, kinda like the minimalist type sttocks
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Old January 20, 2015, 01:24 AM   #39
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I've been following this story quite closely over the past week and it seems like there is really no consensus on the interpretation of the letter released just before SHOT Show but a very clear interpretation of the two private letters that came before it. Of course, the speculation that the ATF acted on the most recent letter is because of the overwhelming applications they are getting for new devices seems accurate to me. I've seen all sorts of devices, some even for short barreled shotguns. Clearly, the creator of the brace device was not aware that short smoothbore ANYTHING is an AOW per the ATF already.

My take from all of this after the smoke clears is that there had to be some sort of response to the outpouring of new devices and to address the rising popularity of the Sig Arms Brace. People are rabidly building what would otherwise be SBRs with the intention of creating a legal SBR without the restrictions of NFA. Your "Get Out Of Jail" card is that your "intention" was to manufacture a pistol and use the brace as intended. I did not take the letter to interpret with a blanket statement that shouldering a pistol or any attached device would constitute an SBR, just that you should be warned against manufacturing an SBR that you intend to shoulder. The ATF's letter is telling you that if you just intend on getting around the tax stamp, you are in violation of the NFA. How they will establish your intent is, quite fortunately for you, up to them to prove.

They will not be hauling people off to court over shouldering a brace-equipped pistol but it would be a smart move not to poke the bear on the issue. After all, they won't have to enforce it as no public range with a range officer will likely let you shoulder any pistol after this letter. They wouldn't allow it because they are either ill-informed or it is a liability issue. If you build a brace pistol and never talk about your intentions with it, then I don't see any laws being broken. There is no law against the misuse of your firearm whether it be shooting it sideways, upside down, or braced against a body part or piece of furniture. For the unfortunate few of us who don't have the time or facilities to shoot our guns that much anyways, the letter doesn't change anything. If you wanted to build one to show off at the range, you may want to look into something else.

If you live in Illinois like I do, you have even less to fear. Generally, gun crimes are never charged against victims of legitimate self defense within a domicile. There is probably numerous case law supporting this, but I can recall that there is a specific court case in the eighties or nineties where a FOID violator was not charged at the behest of the Attorney General and the precedent set. I'm not a lawyer but my advice is free. Build your pistol, enjoy it, and for Kris Kringle's sake, don't post on Facebook about it!
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Old January 20, 2015, 02:07 AM   #40
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They will not be hauling people off to court over shouldering a brace-equipped pistol but it would be a smart move not to poke the bear on the issue.
This whole situation is the result of folks who couldn't resist poking the bear. I'm not confident they'll stop now.

Quote:
If you live in Illinois like I do, you have even less to fear. Generally, gun crimes are never charged against victims of legitimate self defense within a domicile.
A general lack of enforcement in the past doesn't guarantee a lack of enforcement in the future.
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Old January 20, 2015, 06:46 PM   #41
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I agree, you don't hear about ATFE "trolling" for people who add a second vertical grip to their handgun (which has been subject to NFA for a long time)... but that doesn't change the fact, they will prosecute you for it, if they do catch you using one.

If the downward direction of these opinions does lead to a new RULE, then the Brace may very well become like the vertical grips, with POSSIBLE exceptions for the (documented) disabled.
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Old January 22, 2015, 07:54 AM   #42
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I'm reminded of a similar situation - many states have laws requiring vehicles to have their tires covered by the fenders, to prevent debris from getting kicked up onto following cars.

And yet many states have owners of 4WD vehicles with large tires exposed which throw mud all over the exterior and behind them, anyway.

No enforcement.

Same for muffler laws, the motorcyclists in my town are under the impression that loud pipes save lives, and the police do nothing about their open exhaust. But a hot rod or motor vehicle with straight headers gets pulled over.

Sure, there is some enforcement, it's selective. And not every range even has an RO enforce local rules, or wants to act as an employee of the ATF on an issue that is far from decided.

This is far from over.

Ten years ago if you had built an AR pistol and then pinned a long flash hider on it to make the barrel 16"+, it would then be a rifle. But if you removed the flash hider, woe unto you, it was redesigning it as an SBR and you better have applied for the stamp or face prosecution.

Now you can - because the ATF was taken to court on that issue and lost. A firearm that could have both a short and long barrel on it, with either a pistol or rifle stock, which could be changed back and forth was deemed an exception, and the trickle down rule is that now, if you build the AR as a pistol first, you can change it back and forth.

And of course, no, nobody recommends building it as an SBR and then going out in public. Not without the stamp. Nobody publicly advocates breaking the law, especially in print on the internet.

On the other hand, what enforcement will there be? As said, the ATF isn't hauling VFG violators into court. I won't expect brace users to be arrested any time soon, certainly not in any significant numbers.

Maybe one guy? Ruin his life with legal fees? Lost job, family estranged, oh noooo, the horror, the horror, who could stand up to that? The poor guy needs to be put on suicide watch because his life will be ruined!

Life happens. Accept the risks or don't play the game.
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Old January 22, 2015, 12:09 PM   #43
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Because it's up to the individual officer to decide to bust them for it, or not. The ATF seems willing to go after everyone, and even go so far as to stack the deck for prosecution, like making ammunition with soft, exposed primers to make a gun burst fire when they couldn't do it with production ammunition.
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Old January 22, 2015, 05:21 PM   #44
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tirod ......Ten years ago if you had built an AR pistol and then pinned a long flash hider on it to make the barrel 16"+, it would then be a rifle. But if you removed the flash hider, woe unto you, it was redesigning it as an SBR and you better have applied for the stamp or face prosecution.
Absolutely not true.
The definitions of "Rifle" and "Handgun" under Federal law has not changed since 1934.
Pinning a long flash hider on a pistol doesn't make a rifle.........a "Rifle" must have a shoulder stock AND a barrel of at least 16" and OAL of 26".


Quote:
Now you can - because the ATF was taken to court on that issue and lost. A firearm that could have both a short and long barrel on it, with either a pistol or rifle stock, which could be changed back and forth was deemed an exception, and the trickle down rule is that now, if you build the AR as a pistol first, you can change it back and forth.
You are confused. What you describe in the first paragraph above is not at all related to the Thompson Center case.


Do you see how folks get in trouble?
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Old January 23, 2015, 02:33 AM   #45
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Maybe one guy? Ruin his life with legal fees? Lost job, family estranged, oh noooo, the horror, the horror, who could stand up to that? The poor guy needs to be put on suicide watch because his life will be ruined!

Life happens. Accept the risks or don't play the game.
...So you are cool with people losing their life savings and going to prison for 10 years because the ATF recently decided holding an object differently "redesigns" it?
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Old January 23, 2015, 11:45 AM   #46
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The entire thing is just stupid.....as are 98.99999999% of firearms laws

Calling a law stupid won't keep you out of jail if a Federal Agency decides to make an example out of you ..... especially in court, where eveyone there except the accused and the jury makes a very nice living quibbling over "stupid" laws.....
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Old January 23, 2015, 06:47 PM   #47
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I remain somewhat confused on the basic premise of this thread. I have seen an example or two of these arm-braces; are people actually using them as shoulder stocks?

Really? How do we know?

I apologize; I am on a moblie device and haven't looked at any youtube video.

And if someone deliberately misuses an appoved device, we are all on the hook?

Sorry if I sound confused ......I am.
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Old January 24, 2015, 01:12 AM   #48
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Without even checking, the first five image results for "SIG Brace" will probably feature someone shouldering it. Far more than images of it strapped to the wrist, in any case. The ATF used to be cool with this arrangement, until they decided they weren't.

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Old January 24, 2015, 08:17 AM   #49
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Pinning a long flash hider on a 14.5" barrel and making it 16" makes that barrel a legal under the NFA as not being short barreled. The 16" is the line in the sand.

Follow the tracking - pre TC thinking was that an AR built first as a pistol was NFA legal, no stock. Convert by adding a stock and pinning on a flash hider to make it 16" then redesigns it as a rifle. And in the day, once a rifle, always a rifle. Changing it back to a short barrel weapon stock or not required a stamp.

TODAY, build that lower as a pistol, first, it's a pistol. Redesign it with a stock and pinned or otherwise 16" barrel, it's a rifle. Convert it back to a pistol, legal.

Many posters on many other boards have explained it. None were an ATF agent, and no one professes to be one here either, so it's a matter of opinion.

What we are all attempting to do in these discussions is attempting to understand the law by exchanging information and viewpoints - without resulting to letters inquiring the ATF. And they are NOT always right.

Neither is the IRS, and both have been taken to court. They lose cases, too.

Nobody should be advocating a position to evade or break the law, but this issue is clouded with contradictory opinion - even from the ATF. It is not resolved, and the reality is that regulatory guidance never is. What was enforced 5 years ago under the NFA has changed to what we understand is enforced now.

What was legal about the brace just 18 months ago is now cast in a different light. Whether it's one way or the other is a matter of the current trend in enforcement, which is completely lacking in this situation.

It's constantly pointed out nobody should want to be the one test case, we don't even have one yet. That is a major statement about the enforcement of this situation. Without that, it's all sound and fury on the internet signifying nothing.

Most of our divergent legal understanding of what is legal about the brace and what is not will likely never be settled - same as whether a pistol lower remains a pistol lower - because it's all opinion where no case law or court decision stands. And even that can change in the long run - at one time slavery was legal, and motorists had to walk in front of their vehicle waving a flag or red light.

Things change and repressive policies are rescinded.

Whether someone's life is ruined by it may or may not happen, as I keep reminding, you could get hit in traffic tomorrow - it has far more likelihood than being arrested for shouldering a brace.

BTW, I bought a lower to build as a pistol - the rifle lower can't be converted. Once a rifle always a rifle, once a pistol it can be a pistol again. That situation didn't used to exist, but now I'm taking advantage of it. Any future lower I build will be a pistol first - because that is the current interpretation of regulation as the ATF now enforces it.

I guess.
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Old January 25, 2015, 11:18 PM   #50
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I was quite surprised that the ATF cleared these "stabilizers" in the first place.
The main take-away here is that the SB15 was originally designed to assist in firing an AR pistol one-handed, specifically for disabled individuals.

The SigBrace itself is NOT banned. What the ATF did is to regulate its use (which I disagree on and believe to be BS).

They have been and will still be legal for use as designed, if you strap them on your forearm. Before this newest letter it was ok to shoulder it, But with so many people trivializing the brace and making claims on going around NFA laws, the ATF had to step in and make their statement. Some people just can't leave well enough alone...

Each SigBrace ships with the previous letter stating its ok to be shouldered (dated Mar 2014 IIRC). Some people were too dumb to understand this and had to further complicate the issue by poking the ATF and sending other clarification letters and ultimately grabbed the attention ATF.
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