45 ACP weirdness

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 07:39 AM

Hello all,

New here and new to reloading, hope everyone is doing well.

I'll just jump right in.

I have successfully reloaded 200 rounds of 45 acp and had a few FTF that were cleared quickly but all went down range.
Now all of a sudden after I size and de-prime, prime some brass the brass drops into the barrel and seats fine (I have the pistol barrel out.) I loaded up 100 rounds and didn't check, but none of them fit. I can crimp some of them more and get them to fit in with a little push but they don't drop in like the brass above, the push is gentle it pulls right out.

I have taken the brass mentioned above and expand, seat and crimp with a very light crimp but I end up with the cartridge not seating all the way and having to crimp a lot more. This worries me as I may be crimping to much.

I have a bullet that I made in my first 200 that drops in and the COL 1.256
One that won't fit COL 1.258 I have some that are COL 1.62 the drop in.
the two brass are the same size. the crimp on both is .469 I have mixed head stamps and there doesn't seem to ties to any one of them.

I have tried tampering with PTX and the tamper die that came with the die set.
I have done the crimping with the Seat/crimp and the Lee factory crimp die all the same results.

Bullets Reminton, Hornady and . RMR Hardcore Match all are 230 FMJ or TMJ RN.
Kimber Custom II 1911
Hornady LNL
dies hornady

Thanks

Tony

Handloader109 · June 14, 2015, 07:59 AM

You need to go back and read more in your loading manuals, and either get a case gauge, or pull the barrel and check each round to insure that they fit. Your terminology is deficit also, COL is Case overall length, that is just case or brass only length. Use that when checking your brass prior to loading....OAL would be overall length of loaded rounds. And if you didn't make error in your post, you have a lot of variation there. You need to insure that you are sizing the brass also. Now I have problems occasionally with a "plunk" test, but I am using powder coated bullets in every one of this cases and coating gives me issue due to added thickness.

Slow down, be careful, read and LEARN what you are doing and what happens when you vary things.

Another suggestion is to only use one powder and one bullet for a while to get your feet on the ground.

4runnerman · June 14, 2015, 08:09 AM

Handloader-COL- Is Cartridge Overall Length

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 08:10 AM

Thanks for the reply,

As stated in my post I am using the barrel to check and the different OAL was me testing different OAL to see if that was the problem. As stated in my post after resizing all them fit in the barrel it is only after the crimp that I have issues.

Tony

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 08:11 AM

"Handloader-COL- Is Cartridge Overall Length " this is what I thought but I am new to this soooooo.......

Nathan · June 14, 2015, 08:30 AM

If I hear you right, your OAL is a bit long. Try shortening .25 turn at a time(on the seater), until they pass the "plunk test".

Just to clarify....Every bullet will have it's own unique OAL where it passes the plunk test.

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 08:50 AM

Nathan,

I have tried 1.200 to 1.168 at all these lengths some would seat some wouldn't

Thanks

mikld · June 14, 2015, 11:25 AM

You will need to determine what exactly is preventing the round from chambering. Where does the round hit? Is it the bullet? Mark the bullet and end/mouth of the case on one of the "bad" cartridges (smoke or I use a sharpie) and try to chamber it, and see where/if the bullet hits the rifling/end of chamber first. If the bullet shows marks, then deeper seating will prolly help.

Also when there is a fit problem, measure. Perhaps you are already over crimping and slightly bulging the case...

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 11:39 AM

Hi Mikld

I ran a test of 10 rounds.

All federal brass.
All case mouths were after de-prime and size .468 all dropped right in to the barrel and seated perfect.
All cases were expanded to .474 this is the point were I could get the bullet started without to much trouble.
All cases were seated to 1.25
All cases were crimped to .468 measured at the mouth.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

I have two that will not seat.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

The one on the left will not seat correctly this is one of two

[IMG]

[/IMG]

The other 8 seat correctly

[IMG]

[/IMG]

As far as I can see they are the same, they all seated correctly after the sizing.

I will try the sharpie thing and let you know.

Tony

g.willikers · June 14, 2015, 12:28 PM

The reloaded cartridge on the left appears not to have been resized as far down as the other one.

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 12:55 PM

Hey G,

They both seated fine after sizing, not sure it that means anything.

I ran another ten, this time with 5 different head stamps 2 of each.
Had one that would not seat not matter how much I crimped.

I set the crimp up with the adjustment backed all the way out put a sized bullet in the press and went to the highest point then lowered the crimp adjustment to were it touched the bullet. I then started the process of small turn ram up checking each time to see if it would seat in the barrel. It started seating at .469 to
.468 I ran the rest and ended up with one that will not seat. I tried crimping more until I thought it was just way to much compared to the others.

I pulled the bullet on the one that would not seat, re-sized it and it seated fine.
I ran it again starting with no crimp eventually get down to where I crimped the others and it seated. I then pulled the bullet again as I wanted to see if there were any crimp marks on the bullet. There was some marks very light though. I sized it and ran it again, with a new bullet like the other times and it would not seat.

Funny thing is I ran the first 200 rounds no problems at all. Wonder if I have a bad die?

Tony

WVMountaineer · June 14, 2015, 01:19 PM

I didn't read the whole thread. This may or may not be right or, it may have already been stated.

I'd see if the rounds that won't chamber are particular with head stamp first.

And, I'd check to make sure I had the dies set up right in the press. Meaning the press is bottoming out the same so they are consistent.

Finally, I'd measure bullets if these weren't the problems. God Bless

**Unclenick** · June 14, 2015, 04:25 PM

IT1911,

The Magic Marker paint job will tell the tale. I would take your calipers and go up and down the length of difficult cartridge and around it. Unfortunately your photo of the two loaded rounds side by side is blurry, so I can't see clearly, but it appears to have some light evenly space marks around it about 0.08 inches forward of the case mouth. I would check those to see if they are rifling marks. That would account for failure to seat. I could be caused by the bullet being bulged by over crimping, as some softer bullets can be. Marking the bullet with Magic Marker and dropping it in will tell the tale. The over-crimping could occur if you are getting a case that's a little longer than the others.

Rather than crimp to a specific diameter, try adjusting the crimp die so it just barely removes the case mouth belling and makes the case straight along the sides of the bullet. As long as that diameter doesn't exceed 0.473", you should be good to go. Anything with a copper jacket should have enough friction with brass that is adequately resized to keep it in place, and do so well enough that it doesn't need a crimp.

Handloader109,

You got tripped up by a usage change. Before the 1950's, dictionaries had two forms of overall. The compound word, overall, meaning taken altogether ("overall, he had a good life."), and which had been in use since Chaucer's day, and the term over-all, which meant total length ("the boat was 13 feet over-all"). The initial for overall is 'o'. The intials for over-all are 'oa'. This is how the two terms are in my 1948 printed Webster's Second Edition.

By the time my Webster's 3rd edition was published in the 60's, the hyphenated form of overall had disappeared, and overall was used to express length as well as collective inclusion. Webster's editor says English usage has generally been tending to drop hyphenation.

So, the term Cartridge Over-all Length was invented before WW II, and its initials, COAL, had begun to be used at that time. Many later shortened it to just OAL. However, the same term in 1960's and later English is Cartridge Overall Length, whose initials are COL. I even occasionally see someone use "OL" for Overall Length, but not too often.

Cartridge case length is, AFAIK, Case Length, or CL. The work overall is not needed for that because it is a solid single thing, and not an assembly whose combined length results from the assembly of contributing elements (case and bullet) to be assessed overall.

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 06:28 PM

Unclenick,

That is what I did on the crimp, started with none then keep turning it down, checking every pull until it seated in the barrel and it ended up being around .468 to .469.

I just bought two boxes of the Herters and Federal Range ammo. I have shot both of these through my gun with no issues at all. Both are very close to what I am trying to make. COAL 1.258 Crimp .467.

I also bought some Hornady 230 FMJ RN to see if is the RMR bullets. I will reset the expander and crimp dies and see how it goes.

Tony

mikld · June 14, 2015, 06:58 PM

Check/measure the diameter of the cartridge in three places at least, near the mouth (not the crimp), mid way, and near the case head. Bulges?..

IT1911 · June 14, 2015, 09:49 PM

ok it turns out to be the bullets

I was out and about so stopped and picked up some Hornady 230 FMJ RN which turned out to be much tighter tolerance's than the RMR ones. I just ran a 100 through and 8 did not seat right, I re-crimped just a tad tighter they seated.

Thanks everyone you all we a great help.

Tony

Jeffm004 · June 14, 2015, 10:02 PM

I once had a .45 problem that required the marker trick and a case gauge. I think they are worth the money.

mikld · June 15, 2015, 12:36 PM

Did you measure anything? If not what exactly was the problem? Bullet diameter too big? How much and where? Different bullet shape/ogive?

FWIW, I don't like guessing or a shotgun approach. "Just the facts ma'am". When I know the measurements, I will prolly not repeat a problem, as I can check before I stick the components together...

IT1911 · June 15, 2015, 05:17 PM

Ok I took some measurements from both manufactures 10 random bullets

RMR Height .632 - .639 Circumference at base .447 - .449
Hornady .636 - .637 .447

Is this what you wanted?

Tony

mikld · June 19, 2015, 12:07 PM

Well, it's been a long time since I tried any 45 ACP bullets under .450" (and my lead bullets go.5415"-.452").

Actually I don't want anything. I was just trying to explain that unless you know the facts (in this case actual bullet diameters and how the measurements relate to you gun) you will just repeat the problem at some later time...

IT1911 · June 19, 2015, 04:38 PM

lol well being new to reloading I might have numbers in front of me and not understand them.: eek:

I am starting to think my calipers are off by 2 or 3 maybe 4 thousands the numbers I come up with seem to be .003 .004 different then other people. I will need to go get another set to test

I will confess to buying the cheaper ones

Tony

Remow2112 · June 19, 2015, 09:20 PM

I had an identical problem and discovered that on my copper washed bullets I was taper crimping to .473 and some of the rounds did not drop all the way. I then measured some factory .45 and they were all crimped to .469.

I switched to a .470 crimp and have not had an issue since. I have seen 0 pressure signs from the tighter crimp.

HTH,
Dan...

McCarthy · June 19, 2015, 10:24 PM

Since you mentioned different head stamps I assume you collected some brass from different shooter. Chances are you got some brass shot in Glocks. They have very wide 'eat it all' barrels and leave the brass with buldges. Your Kimber Custom II 1911 tho is pretty tight. Hence I suggest getting a push through die and size all brass in 2 steps: push through die and then regular sizer die. I also strongly suggest getting the Dillon stainless steel case cage. You'll be able to see if your bullets are hitting, not so much in your barrel. Don't over crimp and crush the case.

June 14, 2015, 07:39 AM	#1
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	45 ACP weirdness Hello all, New here and new to reloading, hope everyone is doing well. I'll just jump right in. I have successfully reloaded 200 rounds of 45 acp and had a few FTF that were cleared quickly but all went down range. Now all of a sudden after I size and de-prime, prime some brass the brass drops into the barrel and seats fine (I have the pistol barrel out.) I loaded up 100 rounds and didn't check, but none of them fit. I can crimp some of them more and get them to fit in with a little push but they don't drop in like the brass above, the push is gentle it pulls right out. I have taken the brass mentioned above and expand, seat and crimp with a very light crimp but I end up with the cartridge not seating all the way and having to crimp a lot more. This worries me as I may be crimping to much. I have a bullet that I made in my first 200 that drops in and the COL 1.256 One that won't fit COL 1.258 I have some that are COL 1.62 the drop in. the two brass are the same size. the crimp on both is .469 I have mixed head stamps and there doesn't seem to ties to any one of them. I have tried tampering with PTX and the tamper die that came with the die set. I have done the crimping with the Seat/crimp and the Lee factory crimp die all the same results. Bullets Reminton, Hornady and . RMR Hardcore Match all are 230 FMJ or TMJ RN. Kimber Custom II 1911 Hornady LNL dies hornady Thanks Tony

June 14, 2015, 08:09 AM	#3
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Handloader-COL- Is Cartridge Overall Length __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

June 14, 2015, 11:25 AM	#8
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	You will need to determine what exactly is preventing the round from chambering. Where does the round hit? Is it the bullet? Mark the bullet and end/mouth of the case on one of the "bad" cartridges (smoke or I use a sharpie) and try to chamber it, and see where/if the bullet hits the rifling/end of chamber first. If the bullet shows marks, then deeper seating will prolly help. Also when there is a fit problem, measure. Perhaps you are already over crimping and slightly bulging the case... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

June 14, 2015, 11:39 AM	#9
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	Hi Mikld I ran a test of 10 rounds. All federal brass. All case mouths were after de-prime and size .468 all dropped right in to the barrel and seated perfect. All cases were expanded to .474 this is the point were I could get the bullet started without to much trouble. All cases were seated to 1.25 All cases were crimped to .468 measured at the mouth. [IMG][/IMG] I have two that will not seat. [IMG][/IMG] The one on the left will not seat correctly this is one of two [IMG][/IMG] The other 8 seat correctly [IMG][/IMG] As far as I can see they are the same, they all seated correctly after the sizing. I will try the sharpie thing and let you know. Tony

June 14, 2015, 12:28 PM	#10
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	The reloaded cartridge on the left appears not to have been resized as far down as the other one. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 14, 2015, 07:59 AM	#2
Handloader109 Member Join Date: March 7, 2015 Posts: 47	You need to go back and read more in your loading manuals, and either get a case gauge, or pull the barrel and check each round to insure that they fit. Your terminology is deficit also, COL is Case overall length, that is just case or brass only length. Use that when checking your brass prior to loading....OAL would be overall length of loaded rounds. And if you didn't make error in your post, you have a lot of variation there. You need to insure that you are sizing the brass also. Now I have problems occasionally with a "plunk" test, but I am using powder coated bullets in every one of this cases and coating gives me issue due to added thickness. Slow down, be careful, read and LEARN what you are doing and what happens when you vary things. Another suggestion is to only use one powder and one bullet for a while to get your feet on the ground.

June 14, 2015, 08:10 AM	#4
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	Thanks for the reply, As stated in my post I am using the barrel to check and the different OAL was me testing different OAL to see if that was the problem. As stated in my post after resizing all them fit in the barrel it is only after the crimp that I have issues. Tony

June 14, 2015, 08:11 AM	#5
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	"Handloader-COL- Is Cartridge Overall Length " this is what I thought but I am new to this soooooo.......

June 14, 2015, 08:30 AM	#6
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,342	If I hear you right, your OAL is a bit long. Try shortening .25 turn at a time(on the seater), until they pass the "plunk test". Just to clarify....Every bullet will have it's own unique OAL where it passes the plunk test.

June 14, 2015, 08:50 AM	#7
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	Nathan, I have tried 1.200 to 1.168 at all these lengths some would seat some wouldn't Thanks

June 14, 2015, 12:55 PM	#11
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	Hey G, They both seated fine after sizing, not sure it that means anything. I ran another ten, this time with 5 different head stamps 2 of each. Had one that would not seat not matter how much I crimped. I set the crimp up with the adjustment backed all the way out put a sized bullet in the press and went to the highest point then lowered the crimp adjustment to were it touched the bullet. I then started the process of small turn ram up checking each time to see if it would seat in the barrel. It started seating at .469 to .468 I ran the rest and ended up with one that will not seat. I tried crimping more until I thought it was just way to much compared to the others. I pulled the bullet on the one that would not seat, re-sized it and it seated fine. I ran it again starting with no crimp eventually get down to where I crimped the others and it seated. I then pulled the bullet again as I wanted to see if there were any crimp marks on the bullet. There was some marks very light though. I sized it and ran it again, with a new bullet like the other times and it would not seat. Funny thing is I ran the first 200 rounds no problems at all. Wonder if I have a bad die? Tony

June 14, 2015, 01:19 PM	#12
WVMountaineer Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2015 Posts: 330	I didn't read the whole thread. This may or may not be right or, it may have already been stated. I'd see if the rounds that won't chamber are particular with head stamp first. And, I'd check to make sure I had the dies set up right in the press. Meaning the press is bottoming out the same so they are consistent. Finally, I'd measure bullets if these weren't the problems. God Bless

June 14, 2015, 04:25 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,080	IT1911, The Magic Marker paint job will tell the tale. I would take your calipers and go up and down the length of difficult cartridge and around it. Unfortunately your photo of the two loaded rounds side by side is blurry, so I can't see clearly, but it appears to have some light evenly space marks around it about 0.08 inches forward of the case mouth. I would check those to see if they are rifling marks. That would account for failure to seat. I could be caused by the bullet being bulged by over crimping, as some softer bullets can be. Marking the bullet with Magic Marker and dropping it in will tell the tale. The over-crimping could occur if you are getting a case that's a little longer than the others. Rather than crimp to a specific diameter, try adjusting the crimp die so it just barely removes the case mouth belling and makes the case straight along the sides of the bullet. As long as that diameter doesn't exceed 0.473", you should be good to go. Anything with a copper jacket should have enough friction with brass that is adequately resized to keep it in place, and do so well enough that it doesn't need a crimp. Handloader109, You got tripped up by a usage change. Before the 1950's, dictionaries had two forms of overall. The compound word, overall, meaning taken altogether ("overall, he had a good life."), and which had been in use since Chaucer's day, and the term over-all, which meant total length ("the boat was 13 feet over-all"). The initial for overall is 'o'. The intials for over-all are 'oa'. This is how the two terms are in my 1948 printed Webster's Second Edition. By the time my Webster's 3rd edition was published in the 60's, the hyphenated form of overall had disappeared, and overall was used to express length as well as collective inclusion. Webster's editor says English usage has generally been tending to drop hyphenation. So, the term Cartridge Over-all Length was invented before WW II, and its initials, COAL, had begun to be used at that time. Many later shortened it to just OAL. However, the same term in 1960's and later English is Cartridge Overall Length, whose initials are COL. I even occasionally see someone use "OL" for Overall Length, but not too often. Cartridge case length is, AFAIK, Case Length, or CL. The work overall is not needed for that because it is a solid single thing, and not an assembly whose combined length results from the assembly of contributing elements (case and bullet) to be assessed overall. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 14, 2015, 06:28 PM	#14
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	Unclenick, That is what I did on the crimp, started with none then keep turning it down, checking every pull until it seated in the barrel and it ended up being around .468 to .469. I just bought two boxes of the Herters and Federal Range ammo. I have shot both of these through my gun with no issues at all. Both are very close to what I am trying to make. COAL 1.258 Crimp .467. I also bought some Hornady 230 FMJ RN to see if is the RMR bullets. I will reset the expander and crimp dies and see how it goes. Tony

June 14, 2015, 06:58 PM	#15
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Check/measure the diameter of the cartridge in three places at least, near the mouth (not the crimp), mid way, and near the case head. Bulges?.. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

June 14, 2015, 09:49 PM	#16
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	ok it turns out to be the bullets I was out and about so stopped and picked up some Hornady 230 FMJ RN which turned out to be much tighter tolerance's than the RMR ones. I just ran a 100 through and 8 did not seat right, I re-crimped just a tad tighter they seated. Thanks everyone you all we a great help. Tony

June 14, 2015, 10:02 PM	#17
Jeffm004 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2013 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 255	I once had a .45 problem that required the marker trick and a case gauge. I think they are worth the money.

June 15, 2015, 12:36 PM	#18
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Did you measure anything? If not what exactly was the problem? Bullet diameter too big? How much and where? Different bullet shape/ogive? FWIW, I don't like guessing or a shotgun approach. "Just the facts ma'am". When I know the measurements, I will prolly not repeat a problem, as I can check before I stick the components together... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

June 15, 2015, 05:17 PM	#19
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	Ok I took some measurements from both manufactures 10 random bullets RMR Height .632 - .639 Circumference at base .447 - .449 Hornady .636 - .637 .447 Is this what you wanted? Tony

June 19, 2015, 12:07 PM	#20
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Well, it's been a long time since I tried any 45 ACP bullets under .450" (and my lead bullets go.5415"-.452"). Actually I don't want anything. I was just trying to explain that unless you know the facts (in this case actual bullet diameters and how the measurements relate to you gun) you will just repeat the problem at some later time... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

June 19, 2015, 04:38 PM	#21
IT1911 Junior Member Join Date: June 13, 2015 Posts: 11	lol well being new to reloading I might have numbers in front of me and not understand them.: eek: I am starting to think my calipers are off by 2 or 3 maybe 4 thousands the numbers I come up with seem to be .003 .004 different then other people. I will need to go get another set to test I will confess to buying the cheaper ones Tony

June 19, 2015, 09:20 PM	#22
Remow2112 Member Join Date: May 3, 2005 Posts: 51	Identical problem I had an identical problem and discovered that on my copper washed bullets I was taper crimping to .473 and some of the rounds did not drop all the way. I then measured some factory .45 and they were all crimped to .469. I switched to a .470 crimp and have not had an issue since. I have seen 0 pressure signs from the tighter crimp. HTH, Dan...

June 19, 2015, 10:24 PM	#23
McCarthy Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2015 Posts: 312	Since you mentioned different head stamps I assume you collected some brass from different shooter. Chances are you got some brass shot in Glocks. They have very wide 'eat it all' barrels and leave the brass with buldges. Your Kimber Custom II 1911 tho is pretty tight. Hence I suggest getting a push through die and size all brass in 2 steps: push through die and then regular sizer die. I also strongly suggest getting the Dillon stainless steel case cage. You'll be able to see if your bullets are hitting, not so much in your barrel. Don't over crimp and crush the case.