Surplus pulled bullets & other types

swampyMO · April 12, 2000, 07:11 AM

to All,

Question: Has anyone tried any of the military surplus "pulled" 30cal 150 or 147 grain 7.62 or 30-06 bullets that are available out there for a real reasonable price?? Is the accuracy potential of these bullets worth the price??

Question: Instead of "pulled" bullets, how about the IMI .308fmj bullets that are available in bulk?? These are priced nice, but are the decently accurate??

Please note that I'm not looking for max. target accuracy (have better bullets for that) but just for some less expensive ammo for tactical-blasting use in my M1-A.

Any input would be appreciated.....

thanks,
Swampy

k in AR · April 12, 2000, 07:40 AM

I can't answer for pulled military bullets, but a local dealer, Blue Star in Searcy, AR, sales pulled Remington factory bullets. They pull them when a lot of ammo fails inspection. Nothing wrong with the bullets themselves & they shoot just like the ones in the box, only at about 1/2 to 2/3 the price. k

Hutch · April 12, 2000, 08:54 AM

K, do you have a phone number or email address for your source? Can you give us a sample of their prices?

Thanks....

k in AR · April 12, 2000, 09:21 AM

Hutch, Sure be happy to.

Blue Star Cartridge & Brass
914 E. Lincoln
Searcy, AR 72143
501-268-6443

Owner is a great guy, retired police officer, and former ammo mfg. Now he just sells all kinds of reloading components. "New" factory brass & and factory "pulled" bullets seem to be his primary lines.
(exsp. Remington, which makes since because there is a big Remington ammo plant 45 mim. down the road)
Give him a call, he is usally there from 8AM on, CDT, M-F.
K

Hutch · April 12, 2000, 06:31 PM

Thanks, K. I'll call soon.

HankL · April 12, 2000, 07:00 PM

swampyMO, Funny you should ask. I picked up a few thou. of the IMI 150 gr. .308 bullets and have been loading them using surplus powder in my RL 650. Like you said, just for "tactical-blasting". They did very well on one of my favorite courses of fire. Targets of unknown size at almost unknown ranges. Range distances can be from 200 yds to 1 mile. Of course, we usually stay at ranges at 1000 or less yards. Targets can be a bit of wood or a cottonwood log. You can see where the use of inexpensive homebrews comes in handy here. The rifle and scope were set up for 168 gr. bullets moving at 2600 fps. but with the IMIs many a first round hit or "kept his head down" were made. Save some bucks and have fun!

[This message has been edited by HankL (edited April 12, 2000).]

Patrick Graham · April 13, 2000, 06:37 PM

Swampy,
You do the same thing I do, post on both ar15 and here. Between the two boards exists all the firearms knowlege in the world.

I've tried the pulled 150 grain, 163grain AP and 173 grain match 30 Cal bullets. The 150 and the 173 grain are still are still fairly accurate in my Garands. I will be shooting CMP matches with my Garands and the pulled 173 grain.
The 163 grain wasn't as accurate as the rest but not bad. I got a feeling that the AP stuff was just for machineguns anyway. Just thinkin outloud there

I've also tried the pulled M855's, the green tip stuff. It worked out ok, they aren't match bullets but they work great for blastin. I got a 1-3/4 inch 3 shot group from my scoped 1 in 9, 20 inch bushmaster from a rest at 100 yards. The same gun will shoot sub moa with the IMI 62 grain lead core, which are no longer available.

One thing I did learn is that pulled bullets may not be the same from one "vendor" to the next. I've never got a nicked or deformed pulled bulled from Jeff Bartlett, and sometimes the bullets even appear to be tumbled clean. I've seen some fairly dinged up and cruddy pulled bullets that others have purchased from other sources, I never asked what those sources were. The pulled bullets could be drying up and it could be that there is nothing but dinged pulled bullets left.

Yours in pulled bullets

Patrick Graham

Bill Hebert · April 14, 2000, 10:34 AM

I bought the 147gr 30 cal NM pulls for the first time. The package was absolutely covered with the tar sealer used in military 30 caliber rounds. There were several different weight and stlyes of bullets in the package - some had cannelures/some didn't. There were about 11 non boatails. One bullet had the jacket torn(split) from tip to base. There were two 223's - one armor piercing. Two 30 cal tracer rounds. I will not use the bullets without weighing each bullet because there are obviously different weight bullets in the package. It took two days to dissolve the tar in diesel. Then I tried mineral spirits and it dissolved almost immediately. I thought the total package count would allow for the defective/non-boattails 223's etc. Nope -exactly 1000 pieces. I still think I came out ok overall. Has anyone had thesame experience?

Southla1 · April 14, 2000, 08:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Hebert:
[B] The package was absolutely covered with the tar sealer used in military 30 caliber rounds. /B][/quote]

Bill, try acetone and it will absolutly make that sealant fly off the bullets. Better yet just dip em in it and then wipe em off and you talk about clean!

------------------
Carlyle

Southla1 · April 14, 2000, 08:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Patrick Graham:

I've tried the pulled 150 grain, 163grain AP and 173 grain match 30 Cal bullets. The 150 and the 173 grain are still are still fairly accurate in my Garands. I will be shooting CMP matches with my Garands and the pulled 173 grain.
The 163 grain wasn't as accurate as the rest but not bad. I got a feeling that the AP stuff was just for machineguns anyway. Just thinkin outloud there

[/quote]

I guess its the old addage about different rifles liking different ammo, but many years ago (mid 60's) when I was shooting military highpower we discovered that Cal. 30 M2-AP was more accurate than M2 Ball, and almost but not quite on a par with the 173 grain LC-62 and LC-63 Match for accuracy. Someone suggested that the reason was that possibly the steel core was less likely than the lead core to have minute voids in the core causing it to be not perfectly in balance. If this was the real reason or not I am not sure, but I do know I just got my hands on some 163 grain AP and it is amazingly accurate in my 4 groove 03A3 loaded over 47 grains of IMR-4895.
I am not sure if Cal. 30 AP was loaded primarly for machine gun use or not, but I do know that from research done by myself and others, and speaking to "old timers" when I was in the service (many WWII vets were still on active duty then), they all said that M2-AP was the preferred load in the Garands in the ETO due to the type of terrain that most of the war was fought in (towns, villages, forests, lots of light armored vehicles etc.). Those that I spoke to that were in the PTO said that it was not used nearly as much for the same reason (mostly lightly vegitated areas, and some jungle). I recently purchased some New Winchester 147 grain FMJ and it performs very well, and the price is just a little bit higher if it is bought in bulk than the price of pulled surplus rounds.

------------------
Carlyle

PDshooter · April 14, 2000, 11:16 PM

Hi Swamply. You bet , I shoot a lot of Military ,pulled bullets, Powder surplus Its great!! and cheap to shoot. I"ve got a M1,FN-49 both are 30-06 both like 4895 Mil, surplus Jeff

Cheapo · April 17, 2000, 01:23 AM

Mr. Graham:

Most of the U.S. grunts in WWII, according to my fairly reliable sources (including 1960s published reports) were issued 100% AP bulleted enblock clips, most of the time.

Seems the reason was from two factors: the combination of steel for a large portion of the core (cheaper material than fully lead cores);
and a military doctrine/experience calling for an ability to disable vehicles and light-armor targets.

The non-BTs were probably .30-06 M2 Ball, which have a less ballistically efficient shape than the 7.62mm 147-gr BT. The channelure on the 150-gr M2 also results in too-long rounds if loaded in 7.72 cases.

Accuracy: I can always get 3 MOA out of the US (NOT any foreign stuff) ball bullets, whether pulled or shiny-new. With M72/Match (same non-channelure bullet used in both .30-06 and 7.62), I can always get 2 MOA or better. This is from a US military semiauto design. I've seen many reports of 3/4 to 1 MOA performance from these, out of bolt guns with various degrees of "match" dimensions in chamber and bore.

There was no true "National Match" or NM ammo made with 147-gr FMJBTs. Some selected lots of .30-06 150-gr M2 Ball were issued at Camp Perry's National Matches in distant years past, but this ammp was identified by post-facto testing, not special production.

Does anyone know if any other country devoted similar efforts toward making match-grade ammo available to their military units? It would be interesting to know how they fared, compared to the U.S....

Patrick Graham · April 17, 2000, 10:22 AM

Even more info on the 163 grain AP...

You guys will love this..

4 years ago my brother and I did some low budget penatration tests in the hinterlands of South Dakota, where he lives. We had some Talon 150 grain 30-06, Talon 163 grain AP 30-06, some Canadian Green tip (M855) steel core 223 and some Winchester usa 30 m1 carbine 100 gr FMJ.

At 150 yards ( yes we are big chickens ), from behind a old brick wall, we shot at 2 3/8 inch steel plates, one behind the other (It was an old 1920's rockpicker).

The 163 grain black tip AP out of my 43 springfield garand waltzed right through the first plate and buried the penatrator half way through the second plate.

The 150 grain ball out of my garand blew a hole on the first plate big enough to stick a pencil through.

The Canadian green tip out of my 20" bushmaster made a 1/4 inch deep crater in the first plate, couldn't find the steel core.

The 30 carbine made a brown smudge on the first plate.

there is no doubt in my mind that the 163 grain stuff would disable a car out to a quarter mile, maybe more.

Southla1 · April 17, 2000, 01:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Patrick Graham:

At 150 yards ( yes we are big chickens ), from behind a old brick wall, we shot at 2 3/8 inch steel plates, one behind the other (It was an old 1920's rockpicker).
[/quote]

Better to be chicken than dumb like I was

. I was testing some 163 AP Loaded over 47 grains of IMR-4895 in my 03A3 against some old used railroad rail and an old steel culvert, and I figured 75 yards or so should be safe. I only fired 6 rounds of AP and 6 rounds of 150 grain ball. No contest what the winner was. The culvert was 1/2 steel in one place.....the ball would crater it but not penetrate, the 163 AP waltzed right through it, and put a good dent on the other side. results against the web of the old rail were essentialy the same. All the time I was testing the door to my pickup was open about 25 yards behind me. The distance was about 100 yards from the target to my truck. As I got ready to leave and was getting into the truck, there was one of the steel cores lying on the floor of the truck right by the brake pedal

! It had done no damage to the truck but it had to have passed within mere feet of me, as myself, the truck, and the target were all in line. Moral.....I will test at 200 yards the next time.

------------------
Carlyle

April 14, 2000, 08:23 PM	#9
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Hebert: [B] The package was absolutely covered with the tar sealer used in military 30 caliber rounds. /B][/quote] Bill, try acetone and it will absolutly make that sealant fly off the bullets. Better yet just dip em in it and then wipe em off and you talk about clean! ------------------ Carlyle

April 14, 2000, 08:40 PM	#10
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patrick Graham: I've tried the pulled 150 grain, 163grain AP and 173 grain match 30 Cal bullets. The 150 and the 173 grain are still are still fairly accurate in my Garands. I will be shooting CMP matches with my Garands and the pulled 173 grain. The 163 grain wasn't as accurate as the rest but not bad. I got a feeling that the AP stuff was just for machineguns anyway. Just thinkin outloud there [/quote] I guess its the old addage about different rifles liking different ammo, but many years ago (mid 60's) when I was shooting military highpower we discovered that Cal. 30 M2-AP was more accurate than M2 Ball, and almost but not quite on a par with the 173 grain LC-62 and LC-63 Match for accuracy. Someone suggested that the reason was that possibly the steel core was less likely than the lead core to have minute voids in the core causing it to be not perfectly in balance. If this was the real reason or not I am not sure, but I do know I just got my hands on some 163 grain AP and it is amazingly accurate in my 4 groove 03A3 loaded over 47 grains of IMR-4895. I am not sure if Cal. 30 AP was loaded primarly for machine gun use or not, but I do know that from research done by myself and others, and speaking to "old timers" when I was in the service (many WWII vets were still on active duty then), they all said that M2-AP was the preferred load in the Garands in the ETO due to the type of terrain that most of the war was fought in (towns, villages, forests, lots of light armored vehicles etc.). Those that I spoke to that were in the PTO said that it was not used nearly as much for the same reason (mostly lightly vegitated areas, and some jungle). I recently purchased some New Winchester 147 grain FMJ and it performs very well, and the price is just a little bit higher if it is bought in bulk than the price of pulled surplus rounds. ------------------ Carlyle

April 17, 2000, 01:08 PM	#14
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patrick Graham: At 150 yards ( yes we are big chickens ), from behind a old brick wall, we shot at 2 3/8 inch steel plates, one behind the other (It was an old 1920's rockpicker). [/quote] Better to be chicken than dumb like I was . I was testing some 163 AP Loaded over 47 grains of IMR-4895 in my 03A3 against some old used railroad rail and an old steel culvert, and I figured 75 yards or so should be safe. I only fired 6 rounds of AP and 6 rounds of 150 grain ball. No contest what the winner was. The culvert was 1/2 steel in one place.....the ball would crater it but not penetrate, the 163 AP waltzed right through it, and put a good dent on the other side. results against the web of the old rail were essentialy the same. All the time I was testing the door to my pickup was open about 25 yards behind me. The distance was about 100 yards from the target to my truck. As I got ready to leave and was getting into the truck, there was one of the steel cores lying on the floor of the truck right by the brake pedal ! It had done no damage to the truck but it had to have passed within mere feet of me, as myself, the truck, and the target were all in line. Moral.....I will test at 200 yards the next time. ------------------ Carlyle

April 12, 2000, 07:11 AM	#1
swampyMO Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 1999 Location: Missouri Posts: 327	to All, Question: Has anyone tried any of the military surplus "pulled" 30cal 150 or 147 grain 7.62 or 30-06 bullets that are available out there for a real reasonable price?? Is the accuracy potential of these bullets worth the price?? Question: Instead of "pulled" bullets, how about the IMI .308fmj bullets that are available in bulk?? These are priced nice, but are the decently accurate?? Please note that I'm not looking for max. target accuracy (have better bullets for that) but just for some less expensive ammo for tactical-blasting use in my M1-A. Any input would be appreciated..... thanks, Swampy

April 12, 2000, 07:40 AM	#2
k in AR Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 1999 Location: Arkansas USA Posts: 436	I can't answer for pulled military bullets, but a local dealer, Blue Star in Searcy, AR, sales pulled Remington factory bullets. They pull them when a lot of ammo fails inspection. Nothing wrong with the bullets themselves & they shoot just like the ones in the box, only at about 1/2 to 2/3 the price. k

April 12, 2000, 08:54 AM	#3
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	K, do you have a phone number or email address for your source? Can you give us a sample of their prices? Thanks....

April 12, 2000, 09:21 AM	#4
k in AR Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 1999 Location: Arkansas USA Posts: 436	Hutch, Sure be happy to. Blue Star Cartridge & Brass 914 E. Lincoln Searcy, AR 72143 501-268-6443 Owner is a great guy, retired police officer, and former ammo mfg. Now he just sells all kinds of reloading components. "New" factory brass & and factory "pulled" bullets seem to be his primary lines. (exsp. Remington, which makes since because there is a big Remington ammo plant 45 mim. down the road) Give him a call, he is usally there from 8AM on, CDT, M-F. K

April 12, 2000, 06:31 PM	#5
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	Thanks, K. I'll call soon.

April 12, 2000, 07:00 PM	#6
HankL Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: The Sunny South Posts: 2,174	swampyMO, Funny you should ask. I picked up a few thou. of the IMI 150 gr. .308 bullets and have been loading them using surplus powder in my RL 650. Like you said, just for "tactical-blasting". They did very well on one of my favorite courses of fire. Targets of unknown size at almost unknown ranges. Range distances can be from 200 yds to 1 mile. Of course, we usually stay at ranges at 1000 or less yards. Targets can be a bit of wood or a cottonwood log. You can see where the use of inexpensive homebrews comes in handy here. The rifle and scope were set up for 168 gr. bullets moving at 2600 fps. but with the IMIs many a first round hit or "kept his head down" were made. Save some bucks and have fun! [This message has been edited by HankL (edited April 12, 2000).]

April 13, 2000, 06:37 PM	#7
Patrick Graham Junior member Join Date: January 18, 1999 Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA Posts: 674	Swampy, You do the same thing I do, post on both ar15 and here. Between the two boards exists all the firearms knowlege in the world. I've tried the pulled 150 grain, 163grain AP and 173 grain match 30 Cal bullets. The 150 and the 173 grain are still are still fairly accurate in my Garands. I will be shooting CMP matches with my Garands and the pulled 173 grain. The 163 grain wasn't as accurate as the rest but not bad. I got a feeling that the AP stuff was just for machineguns anyway. Just thinkin outloud there I've also tried the pulled M855's, the green tip stuff. It worked out ok, they aren't match bullets but they work great for blastin. I got a 1-3/4 inch 3 shot group from my scoped 1 in 9, 20 inch bushmaster from a rest at 100 yards. The same gun will shoot sub moa with the IMI 62 grain lead core, which are no longer available. One thing I did learn is that pulled bullets may not be the same from one "vendor" to the next. I've never got a nicked or deformed pulled bulled from Jeff Bartlett, and sometimes the bullets even appear to be tumbled clean. I've seen some fairly dinged up and cruddy pulled bullets that others have purchased from other sources, I never asked what those sources were. The pulled bullets could be drying up and it could be that there is nothing but dinged pulled bullets left. Yours in pulled bullets Patrick Graham

April 14, 2000, 10:34 AM	#8
Bill Hebert Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 1999 Posts: 180	I bought the 147gr 30 cal NM pulls for the first time. The package was absolutely covered with the tar sealer used in military 30 caliber rounds. There were several different weight and stlyes of bullets in the package - some had cannelures/some didn't. There were about 11 non boatails. One bullet had the jacket torn(split) from tip to base. There were two 223's - one armor piercing. Two 30 cal tracer rounds. I will not use the bullets without weighing each bullet because there are obviously different weight bullets in the package. It took two days to dissolve the tar in diesel. Then I tried mineral spirits and it dissolved almost immediately. I thought the total package count would allow for the defective/non-boattails 223's etc. Nope -exactly 1000 pieces. I still think I came out ok overall. Has anyone had thesame experience?

April 14, 2000, 11:16 PM	#11
PDshooter Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 607	Hi Swamply. You bet , I shoot a lot of Military ,pulled bullets, Powder surplus Its great!! and cheap to shoot. I"ve got a M1,FN-49 both are 30-06 both like 4895 Mil, surplus Jeff

April 17, 2000, 01:23 AM	#12
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Mr. Graham: Most of the U.S. grunts in WWII, according to my fairly reliable sources (including 1960s published reports) were issued 100% AP bulleted enblock clips, most of the time. Seems the reason was from two factors: the combination of steel for a large portion of the core (cheaper material than fully lead cores); and a military doctrine/experience calling for an ability to disable vehicles and light-armor targets. The non-BTs were probably .30-06 M2 Ball, which have a less ballistically efficient shape than the 7.62mm 147-gr BT. The channelure on the 150-gr M2 also results in too-long rounds if loaded in 7.72 cases. Accuracy: I can always get 3 MOA out of the US (NOT any foreign stuff) ball bullets, whether pulled or shiny-new. With M72/Match (same non-channelure bullet used in both .30-06 and 7.62), I can always get 2 MOA or better. This is from a US military semiauto design. I've seen many reports of 3/4 to 1 MOA performance from these, out of bolt guns with various degrees of "match" dimensions in chamber and bore. There was no true "National Match" or NM ammo made with 147-gr FMJBTs. Some selected lots of .30-06 150-gr M2 Ball were issued at Camp Perry's National Matches in distant years past, but this ammp was identified by post-facto testing, not special production. Does anyone know if any other country devoted similar efforts toward making match-grade ammo available to their military units? It would be interesting to know how they fared, compared to the U.S....

April 17, 2000, 10:22 AM	#13
Patrick Graham Junior member Join Date: January 18, 1999 Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA Posts: 674	Even more info on the 163 grain AP... You guys will love this.. 4 years ago my brother and I did some low budget penatration tests in the hinterlands of South Dakota, where he lives. We had some Talon 150 grain 30-06, Talon 163 grain AP 30-06, some Canadian Green tip (M855) steel core 223 and some Winchester usa 30 m1 carbine 100 gr FMJ. At 150 yards ( yes we are big chickens ), from behind a old brick wall, we shot at 2 3/8 inch steel plates, one behind the other (It was an old 1920's rockpicker). The 163 grain black tip AP out of my 43 springfield garand waltzed right through the first plate and buried the penatrator half way through the second plate. The 150 grain ball out of my garand blew a hole on the first plate big enough to stick a pencil through. The Canadian green tip out of my 20" bushmaster made a 1/4 inch deep crater in the first plate, couldn't find the steel core. The 30 carbine made a brown smudge on the first plate. there is no doubt in my mind that the 163 grain stuff would disable a car out to a quarter mile, maybe more.