Remove barrel from a Super Blackhawk

[ShovelheadDan]

Sirs,
I want to replace a barrel on a Super Blackhawk and was wondering how to remove the old one. This is a stainless pistol if it matters.
I can't see a pin. To buy the barrel vise and receiver wrench etc. would cost several hundred dollars and I'm only going to do this once so I need a low-buck approach. What about using wood to protect the frame from the vise jaws (sand hollows in them to fit around the round rear part of the frame and the ejector rod boss) and wrap a loop of rope around the barrel, stick a pry bar in the rope loop and unscrew it that way? I read that somewhere years ago.
What I'm wanting to do is make a rifle out of it. Have a 20" barrel made and either cut the curved grip tangs off of the grip frame and weld straight ones on or have a new grip frame machined with straight tangs and fit it with a stock like on the old Winchester repeaters.

[DnPRK]

I would make a close fitting receiver fixture out of JB Weld and 3/4" plywood. Use paste wax as a release agent for the receiver. Then trap the front of the receiver between 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood and fill the gap between the plywood and receiver with JB Weld. You can keep the JB Weld from running by making dams of modeling clay. Once the JB Weld sets up, you can clamp the plywood/JB Weld assembly in a large bench vise. If done properly, it will not allow your receiver to twist and should only cost a few $s.

You realize, of course, that the gas from the cylinder/barrel gap will cut any body part in it's way? Fingers, hands, wrists and forearms especially...

[Dfariswheel]

This is one of those questions that makes a gunsmith cringe.

Revolver barrels are NOT just pieces of threaded pipe you can just screw on and off at will.
They require A LOT of fitting and adjusting.

Revolver barrels are torqued on TIGHT, especially Ruger barrels.
You MUST have a gunsmiths hydraulic barrel vise to grip the barrel.
NO shop vise, no matter how big it is can produce enough pressure to prevent the barrel from just turning in the barrel clamp.

IN NO WAY will you get the barrel off with the rope around the barrel.
That old shade tree trick of wrapping rope around the barrel only worked on the old S&W revolvers that were pinned. The early models weren't torqued on tight and the rope "could" work.

Lock the frame in a vise, and there's no way to get a good grip on the barrel to unscrew it without springing or cracking the frame.

A new barrel will NOT screw on with the front sight properly aligned at 12:00 o'clock.
The barrel shoulder will have to be cut on a lathe to allow the barrel to torque up properly and still have the sight at 12:00.
HOW MUCH torque is an educated judgment call.
Too tight and you can crack the frame or pressure dimple the barrel leaving a constricted bore with a tight spot.
This happened to a lot of S&W revolvers after S&W stopped pinning barrels.
Too loose, and the barrel will vibrate loose under recoil.

After the barrel is on, then you have to use a special cutting tool to cut the proper barrel/cylinder gap.
This tool works down the bore, and it ain't cheap.

After that, the same tool is used with a special cutter head to cut or re-cut the forcing cone.
The cone is gaged with a special plug gage.
After the cone gages OK, another head is used to lap the cone smooth.
The forcing cone is one of the most critical parts of a revolver, and THE most important spec is the size of the outer mouth of the cone, NOT the taper of the cone.

There's only one way it can be set and that requires the plug gage. You cannot "eyeball" it.
If the mouth is too big, the gun is inaccurate. Too small and it's not only inaccurate, it spits bullet metal.
The difference between too small and too big is TINY.

This is a lot of stuff that people just don't want to hear.
They want to hear that revolver barrels are no big deal and they can be switched out by a do-it-yourselfer with no problem.
They want to believe that gunsmiths are just ripping people off for shoving a hammer handle through a frame and twisting the frame off, screwing the new barrel on and charging a lot of money.

Given the way Ruger assembles their revolver barrels, I can pretty well give you a guarantee that what you're about to do is ruin a nice gun.
Over a 30 year career I saw a fair number of home shop re-barrel jobs. Most of them had sprung frames, cracks through the threads on the frame, or were guns that just never seemed to shoot well again.
A lot of them turn up on gun shop shelves or at gun shows after being dumped by the owner.

Bottom line: It's your gun, you can do what you want.
Just don't be shocked when things go bad.

There are some gunsmithing jobs that can be done with expedient tooling on the cheap. Re-barreling a modern revolver AIN'T one of them.

[ShovelheadDan]

Well, Sir, I appreciate your answer and your knowledge.
I'm not a shade tree mechanic (and I'm obviously not a gunsmith) and I'm not about to ruin a good gun.
I'm going to create a beautiful rifle.
It was a simple question.
I will take it to a gunsmith.
I can afford it.
Thank you.

[Harry Bonar]

Sir,
Over the years I,ve removed dozzens of Super and blackhawk barrels, I use a one inch solid steel bar after the gun is disassembled and put it in the frame against the rear of the barrel, kind of lightly bump it and have never had the slightest trouble,
Barrels have always come right loose very quickly and with no dammage, I install the new or modified bbl, the same way,
Tightening the bbl, too tight will produce a ring at the frame barrrel joint,
Of course, the barrel must be held in a barrel vice,

Now, a Smith / I,ve never done one abd I suppose that would be a different matter,
Ruger used to be plagued with barrel gaps of uneven dimensions and I,d remove the bbls turn off one thread and correct that cutting a new forcing cone in the process, set at about ,004,
Ruger, is a different animal that Smith and I,d not try this universally,

Harry B,

[ShovelheadDan]

Sir,
A local gunsmith told me that Ruger barrels were, in his experience, not torqued very tight which is one of the reasons I was thinking of doing it myself.
The other reason was that I thought it was a simple matter of unscrewing the old barrel and screwing on the new one.
But Dfariswheel set me straight on that score. He obviously thinks I'm an idiot since I'm not a gunsmith. So be it. He has most certainly forgotten more that I will ever learn on the subject.
I have contacted a smith who is nationally known and he found it interesting and has graciously agreed to take on the project.
You are another one who obviously knows what you're talking about and I thank you for your input.
I have a stainless Super Blackhawk that went through a house fire last summer ( I lost almost 40 guns) and I may try your barrel removal technique on that one. I don't know if it is still shootable or not. The hammer spring is still good so I may try it. It needs a new barrel anyway. I only paid $200 for it because some OTHER idiot buggered the ejector housing threads on the barrel (which is why it needs a new one) and if I twist it into a pretzel, it won't be the end of the world.
I have a brand new stainless one that I will be converting into a rifle.
In the meantime, I'll get another new stainless one and have my matching .44 mag pistol and revolving rifle.

[Dfariswheel]

He obviously thinks I'm an idiot

I Don't think you're an idiot.
I just cringe every time I hear someone asking about doing their own revolver barrel change.
I've seen way too many good guns ruined by "expedient" methods.

When someone asks, I assume you simply don't know what's involved. So, to save you from destroying an expensive gun I tell you what's involved, and why you shouldn't try it without the right tools, and the knowledge of HOW to use them.

[RsqVet]

Dan --

Dfaris is a great resource here are TFL and I'm certain did not imply judgement on you in anyway.

Please understand when trying to explain to someone why something is not a good idea sometimes it helps to spell it out in very explicit and graphic detail otherwise one ends up with a long exchange of posts that begin with OK, well I can't do it that way, but what if I do this instead, or people simply think that the pro giving the advice is stuck up or want to do the job themselves fifthey don't explain exactly what is involved and why it's not going to work out well. If you hand around here for awhile you will see that Dfaris is more than helpful when it comes to things that one can take on themselves.

[ShovelheadDan]

Understood, and I apologize if I took it wrong.

[machworx]

Concerning the above I don't have a hyd. barrel vise would a large 3 jaw lathe chuck w/ aluminum shims to avoid scratching barrel work? Why does Harry Bonar use a one inch solid steel bar after the gun is disassembled and put it in the frame against the rear of the barrel, kind of lightly bump it? Is it to sorta just break it loose? When reassembling is it acceptable to loctite the barrel back in to keep it from loosening during firing?

[Dfariswheel]

"Expedient" methods just don't work out.
Lathe chucks are designed to hold metal while being turned on the lathe, not unscrew a torqued barrel.

Loctite is not acceptable.
Again, when you screw the barrel on, the front sight won't align properly, so it has to be fitted.

Here's something I wrote on how revolver barrels are changed, and WHY you don't try expedient methods unless you want to trash out a gun.
If you can't find a gunsmith you trust, send it in to the company to have it re-barreled.
This might be over kill, but it explains the hazards of home attempts to change a barrel.
===================================
Barrel work is a MAJOR pistolsmithing job and requires a considerable amount of very expensive equipment.
It involves a lot of steps that most people, including a surprising number of gunsmiths, don’t even know is required.
Failure to do the job correctly insures an inaccurate revolver at best, and a destroyed frame at worst.

The common do-it-yourself technique is to use “expedient” tooling techniques that are found in old gunsmithing books, and can still be found mentioned occasionally in gun magazines.
These methods range from wrapping rope around the barrel and using it with a stick to form a sort of tourniquet to unscrew the barrel, to the most common, which is to use a hammer handle through the frame window as a “wrench”.

The hammer handle method is to make up a pair of wood barrel blocks for the barrel.
The barrel is sandwiched between the blocks, and are locked in a shop vice. One writer said to “Tighten the vise until your eyes bugged out”.
A hammer handle or a shaped wooden 2x4 is shoved through the frame and is used as a “wrench” to twist the frame off.
The new barrel is fitted by hand filing the barrel shoulder until the front sight is at 12:00, the rear of the barrel is filed, if necessary, to provide a small gap between the barrel and the cylinder, and you’re off to the range to shoot your fresh re-barrel.

At least that’s how it’s touted as working.

In reality, when the hammer handle is used to turn the frame, one of two things happen:
Either the frame bends, or it breaks.
Revolver frames are a lot softer and easier to bend then most people suspect, and when the frame itself is used as a wrench, the frame will almost always bend.
Once bent, the frame is ruined even though it may still be shoot-able.
A bent frame will often have timing problems, and always has alignment problems. All of which cause inaccuracy and possible spitting of bullet metal.
Some owners who’ve tried this method of barrel work, are surprised that the factories do not have some kind of machine or device that will straighten the frame like bent car frames can sometimes be straightened.
The fact is, once bent the frame can never be repaired, and the best a factory can do is replace it.

The second thing that can happen is the frame will break.
If you look at a revolver frame just under the area where the barrel screws in, you’ll see that the frame is very thin in this area.
When the unsupported frame is unscrewed with the handle, it can crack right through the threaded portion.
While there are ways to weld the crack, the very high expense of having a top level custom pistolsmith/welder do it is very prohibitive, and is reserved for repairs to revolvers of high historical value, with NO guarantee that it will work.

The advice to hand file the barrel shoulder to align the barrel and to file the end of the barrel to provide the barrel/cylinder gap always ruins the barrel, since it’s near impossible to keep the surfaces perfectly square.
The result is tilted barrels due to uneven shoulders, and the end of the barrel not square with the cylinder.

When re-barreling a revolver, the first thing you need is a USABLE barrel.
This is much harder to get then you’d think, since a good percentage of barrels for sale at gun shows and on eBay are defective.
Major reasons for selling a used barrel are, the barrel was defective to start with, or it was damaged during removal, using the hammer handle method.
This damage may not always be readily apparent, and sometimes isn’t revealed until the pistolsmith attempts to install it.
Damage can run from tiny cracks in the forcing cone to pitted bores, to bent barrels.
I once saw a Diamondback barrel that someone had TWISTED, probably by attempting to unscrew it from the frame the wrong way.
This wasn’t apparent until, suspicious, I checked it with a straight edge.

Cracks in the forcing cone are common, and contrary to popular opinion, a cracked barrel is almost always toast.
Cracks in steel tend to continue to spread, even if you cut the cracked end off, since cracks are a sign of metal fatigue caused by blast damage.
Some gunsmiths will attempt to save a barrel with a cracked forcing cone by setting the barrel back, but this almost always fails, and the crack continues to spread forward.

Here’s a brief description of how a revolver barrel is changed correctly:
First, the barrel is locked in a special barrel vise.
I had two, one was a small scale copy of the larger hydraulic jack type vises that gunsmiths use to change out rifle barrels.
I used this one for older round barrels like the Colt Official Police.
The second vise was large Wilton vise with heavily modified jaws.
I had sets of custom machined brass or aluminum barrel inserts that were fitted to specific makes and models.
As example I had sets for Pythons, Trooper Mark III’s, King Cobras, shrouded Detective Specials, etc.
These inserts are installed around the barrel, then clamped in the barrel vise.

The action, or frame wrench, is installed on the frame.
This wrench is a universal revolver wrench that fits around the front of the frame. It is fitted with brand and type specific hard plastic inserts.
These inserts very closely fit the front of the frame around and below the barrel area to fully support the frame.
Again, I had inserts for specific guns. I had one set for Colt “E & I” frames, another set for “J” frames, another set for “D” frames, etc.
These inserts support the frame and spread the torque over a wider area to allow unscrewing the frame without over stressing the frame and damaging it.

With the frame and barrel tightly locked up, and with no “spring” to the setup, the barrel is unscrewed.

With the barrel off, the frame threads are cleaned up with brass brushes, solvent, and if necessary are “chased” with a tap to insure clean, uniform threads.
The replacement barrel is closely inspected and it’s threads are cleaned and chased with a die if necessary.

The barrel is test fitted to the frame to determine where the front sight is and how much material has to be removed to allow the front sight to be at 12:00 top-dead-center after being torqued in place.
How much to remove is largely a judgment call based on experience.
Using a lathe or a bench trimming device, that amount of metal is removed from the barrel shoulder.
The barrel threads are coated with anti-seize compound and the barrel is threaded on the frame, everything is relocked in the barrel vise and frame wrench, and the barrel is torqued in place.
If the barrel is torqued with insufficient torque the barrel will vibrate loose.
Too much and you run the risk of pressure dimpling or constricting the bore in the thread area, or even cracking the frame.

With the barrel in place, the barrel/cylinder gap must be set.
This is done with a special cutter tool that works down the bore.
A Tee-handle rod is put down the bore and a cutter tool is attached on the end. The rod is pulled outward and rotated, trimming the end of the barrel.
Care has to be taken to insure the end of the barrel is not scalloped from uneven pressure.

With the barrel/cylinder gap set to an ideal .005”, the forcing cone has to be re-cut.
The forcing cone is very misunderstood, and even some gunsmiths have no idea it has to be re-cut and gaged or that it must be gaged at all.
The critical dimension of the cone is not it’s “length” or taper, but the outer diameter of the mouth.
If the outer mouth is too big, the gun will be inaccurate. Too small and it’s inaccurate AND will spit bullet metal.

The same Tee handle tool is inserted down the bore, but this time a cone-shaped cutter head is attached.
The cutter heads come in various tapers, and you can set a barrel for exclusive use with lead bullets by using a longer taper, or for jacketed with shorter tapers.
The factories use a good compromise that works with everything.
The Tee handle is pulled outward, pulling the cutter into the forcing cone. The handle is rotated and the cutter head cuts the cone.
Again, care is taken to prevent scalloping and the progress is checked often with a special plug gage.
This drop-in plug gage gages the outer diameter of the cone. The difference between too large and too small is very small, so gauging is done often.
The cone cannot be "eyeballed", it has to be gaged.

After the cone is cut, yet another head is attached to the Tee handle, this time a brass cone-shaped lapping head.
Valve grinding compound is applied to the lap, and the forcing cone is lapped to a smooth finish.

After lapping, the barrel and frame is carefully cleaned of all metal chips and lapping compound, and the revolver is reassembled.
The last step is firing the revolver for function, and to check accuracy off the sandbags.

As you can see, there’s a LOT more involved than first thought, and all steps are CRITICAL.
Unless you’re willing to invest quite a bit of money in custom made tooling and spend the time learning how to properly use it, attempting a do-it-yourself re-barrel job is a very fast way to ruin a good gun.

[James K]

A lot of misunderstanding comes from folks who really are experts in some other area of mechanics, say auto transmission work, and figure that guns are a lot less complicated (true) and don't require any special knowledge (false). They naturally think they have the skills and knowledge needed to work on guns, but guns have their own unique problems and the same skills do not apply. So please, if your skills are in other areas, don't assume you know about guns, or be insulted if someone implies that you do not.

If you are the star mechanic at AAMCO, and I said that I planned to tear my transmission apart using a monkey wrench and a screwdriver, you would "cringe" and probably question my sanity. So maybe I had better leave my transmission work to you and you could leave the gunsmithing to folks like Dfariswheel.

Jim

[hickstick_10]

3 jaws dont hold for [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] when your turning metal, they certainly wont hold a gun barrel.

(not a gunsmith, but i am a Journeyman machinist)

And id agree with the fellas here to leave revolvers to the gunsmiths, Ive chambered and rebarelled precisely 1 bolt gun and 2 lever guns, but i dont dare touch my own revolvers. I done some time with none destructive testing so I know for certain my rebarelling jobs were good, no cracks.

Your projects sounds almost exactly like one I've been day dreaming of, but i think il break down and buy one from Uberti

Pick up the book "gunsmithing guns of the old west" IMHO (as a amateur gunsmith) I found it really helpful as far as exploded diagrams. Plus he demonstrates the use of the T handled tools that Dfarriswheel is explaining to you. Plus old man dunlaps book is a must

That being said it sounds like you have a metal lathe if you have a 3 jaw chuck, now if you have a 4 jaw chuck and know how to use dial indicators you have all you need to do the job once you get past the barrel removal, including fitting the barrel so the sight sits at 12 oclock, fitting for cylinder gap and boring the forcing cone. A 3 jaw chucks is USELESS for these operations so use a 4 jaw. Oh yeah theres another book called "precision rifle barrel fitting" and its very good IMHO as an amateur for explaining the setups used. If you have a good metal lathe you do not need the T handle tools.

Gun work is a micrometer and gauge style of measuring, not just grinding something to fit and checking it with a 6 inch dial caliper *shudders*.

If your competent with machine tools (like i mean competent, like +- 0.0002 competent) and are a careful man, you can do much of your own gun work in my opinion.

A lot of misunderstanding comes from folks who really are experts in some other area of mechanics, say auto transmission work, and figure that guns are a lot less complicated (true) and don't require any special knowledge (false). They naturally think they have the skills and knowledge needed to work on guns, but guns have their own unique problems and the same skills do not apply. So please, if your skills are in other areas, don't assume you know about guns, or be insulted if someone implies that you do not.

If you are the star mechanic at AAMCO, and I said that I planned to tear my transmission apart using a monkey wrench and a screwdriver, you would "cringe" and probably question my sanity. So maybe I had better leave my transmission work to you and you could leave the gunsmithing to folks like Dfariswheel.

It is my personal belief that a man can learn anything if he puts effort to it, this intrepid young experimentor may become a great gunsmith who specializes in a conversion like this (I'd know I'd buy one), provided he keeps an opend mind, learns as much as possible and hopefully practices on some old clunker guns first theres no reason he couldn't pull it off.

Some tradesman (especially those who deal with 0.001 or less of an inch) tend to develop a mentality that we are special and others are tape measure workmen, well were not, the gauges do the measuring and the machines do the cutting, and anyone who doesnt fathom the "secrets" can never tinker with whatever, IMHO its not true.

Learn what 0.001 is first and learn how to keep parts concentrc to one another and your 3/4 of the way there!!

I forgot to add, a good practice gun would be an old H&R .22 revolver (or its equivalent) kinda like a miny version *drools* hell thats one I'm gonna try myself (cheap barrels and actions)

Good luck

Mike

[claymore1500]

That just seems like a lot of expence and work, just to remove unwanted facial hair.

Just ask anyone who has fired a super blackhawk at night about the 3 foot ring of fire that blows out around the cylinder face, then figure that, in rifle configuration, that fire will be about 6 to 8 inches in front of YOUR face.

That is one of the reasons the revolving rifle never really caught on.

Please, don't get me wrong, I can appretiate the "look at this, I made it myself" pride you could take in your project, It's just that I thought I should point out the draw backs of the finished project before you spend the time and money to create a very expensive wall hanger.

Just my opinion, YMMV

[machworx]

I have held a tight as +/-.0001 before but dont do it typically I do have a 4 jaw (12") & a collet setup + 2 six jaw chucks & several other 3 jaws (& a large mill & tool & cutter grinder as well as other misc tools in my shop). My new jet lathe only has a 3.125 dia thru spindle so I can't put the frame inside & that is one of the reasons I wanted to take the barrel off. For ref I have been machining & welding since 8th grade (almost 40 years ago) & did it all thru HS & college but since then it has only been my main hobby as I typically work as a design, mfg, or tooling engineer in turbine & rocket engines. I will check out some of the book that you mention & see if I can gleam some extra hints from that. I decided to work on this gub cause it isn't stainless which I really prefer so I thought this would be a sort of test bed gun to try some things on.

[mad_jack02]

If you could get the old barrel off with out damaging the frame, fine. But unless you get extremely lucky and the new barrel indexes with the sites straight up and tight you are going to need a lathe to set the shoulder back on the barrel, so the sites are straight up when it is tight. Then you will need to set the cylinder/barrel gap, and cut the forcing cone on breech end of barrel. after all this is done and done right, now you have to figure out how your going to attach the ejector rod housing, amusing you had to set the barrel back even a little bit will miss align the screw hole for it. This is all doable but not for the timid. The tools alone do do this job right will cost more than a hole bunch of Super Black Hawks put together. Taking it to a good Gunsmith will be a lot cheaper, and won't be disappointed with the results.

[Malamute]

The indexing of the front sight isnt an issue in this case, or any rebarrel that's using a blank. You would set up the barrel for cylinder gap (or headspace) then attach the front sight square with the frame.

[Ivan]

This gun is starting off as a common revolver (handgun). I believe there may be legal implications in putting a stock on such a gun. BTW, the typical revolving rifle of the time had a much longer cylinder than a typical revolver.

- Ivan.

[w_houle]

It's funny, because the more I tear into guns... the more I would rather not
Although if someone can tell me if the threads on an ROA are the same as the Blackhawk I would appreciate it. I've seen barrels "in the white" with nothing attached or drilled in some nice barrel lengths... but in Blackhawk threads.

[ShovelheadDan]

Well, guys, I had too many irons in the fire last summer and never got around to my revolving rifle project. Now, I think my gunsmith is busy so is there anybody you can recommend that has the equipment dfariswheel mentioned and the know-how to do my re-barreling?
Thanks
Dan

[Dfariswheel]

I'd recommend either the Ruger factory (best option) or someone like Cylinder & Slide Shop.

[Blondie.357]

If you are the star mechanic at AAMCO, and I said that I planned to tear my transmission apart using a monkey wrench and a screwdriver, you would "cringe" and probably question my sanity.

Heh, that was good.

[ShovelheadDan]

I've contacted Cylinder and Slide. Thank you

[ShovelheadDan]

Dfariswheel,

Sir, the gunsmith I contacted last year, like every other gunsmith I've contacted, is booked up for many months. Do you know of anybody that can cut a forcing cone? I've got a 24" Pac-Nor barrel blank and just need somebody to mount it to my Super Blackhawk. It will not need to be indexed because there isn't a front sight on it yet. There is no ejector rod or housing to worry with as I have had Ruger fit another cylinder to it and reloading will be accomplished by swapping cylinders. I can have the threads cut at a machine shop if need be. I can also mount a front sight if need be. I just need somebody to mount the barrel and cut the forcing cone. SOMEBODY out there ought to be able to mount this barrel for me this summer!
If I can't find anybody, Can a machine shop do it?
Thank you,
Dan

[ShovelheadDan]

Yes, it is legal.
It is illegal to convert a rifle to a pistol but I'm doing the opposite.
I'm surprised at the number of people who thinks it is illegal to convert a pistol to a 24" barrel rifle, complete with shoulder stock (that doesn't detach from the pistol grip)
And, yes, everybody knows that gas (and possibly bullet slivers) escapes between the cylinder and barrel. That is one of the first things I addressed in my design. I certainly don't want that in my face or arm.
It is a do-able deal if I could just find somebody who can cut a dang forcing cone.