Aint that a nifty looking rifle - "German Schuetzen" Rifle on Gunbroker

drobs · August 10, 2016, 10:15 PM

Not mine, but could be, or could be yours...
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/575186453

"German Schuetzen 1840-1870 Target Set Triggers"

Wondering if the parts and pieces on it are made from silver? Any guestimate on caliber?

I'm kind of tempted but don't know anything about it. What say the experts here - bid or pass?

Savage99 · August 10, 2016, 10:40 PM

That's really old, a muzzleloader.

I have a few Schuetzen's including falling blocks.

One is a Remington Hepburn, a Winchester Highwall and the other an Aydt.

drobs · August 10, 2016, 10:52 PM

I like yours better Savage99. Real nice looking gun.

**4V50 Gary** · August 10, 2016, 11:24 PM

I wonder if the rear aperture is included. More importantly, what of the bullet mold for it?

Hawg · August 10, 2016, 11:51 PM

Nope and nope, you have to supply your own on both counts. The hardware is German silver.

**4V50 Gary** · August 11, 2016, 08:07 AM

No bullet mold sucks. It's easy enough to find the twist, but then you have to do a lot of experimenting to find what bullet will work best in it. Bet it was some type of conical.

the other rifle seems more appealing to me.

Pahoo · August 11, 2016, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Any guestimate on caliber?

My SWAG on this would be in the sub.45 range; Say a .40, as they were mainly for target shooting or PoppinJay. A friend of mine, is currently building one and has been working on it for about six months. He intends on shooting competition with it. Ever time I run into one of these, I have to marvel at the Craftsmanship. Mot are absolutely beautiful. ......

Be Safe !!!

T. O'Heir · August 11, 2016, 01:37 PM

No silver in German Silver. Called that because of the colour. German Silver is alloys of copper, zinc, and nickel, sometimes containing lead and tin.
Schuetzen rifles were kind of the Palma rifles of the 19th Century. 12 to 15 pounds while standing on your hind legs and shooting at 200 yards. Chambering varied, but .40 was the max. As in .38-55 or .32-40.

Jim Watson · August 11, 2016, 03:02 PM

I wonder why he thinks it is German, what with no maker's or proof marks.
I wonder why he thinks it is then American history maybe with a Remington barrel.
A confused vendor.

I have no way of knowing origin, but the trigger guard is flat faced for a Swiss style of offhand shooting. If it is Swiss, the caliber is likely .41 like the famous Swiss Federal.

The deep muzzle crown fits the description of the Wild System used on the Swiss Federal:
"Look at your muzzle and you will see a rebate. The rod for this barrel would have had (for want of a better word) a "flange" just in from the true end of the rod (these positions varied) to fit exactly inside this recess. This was called the "Wild" system of loading. The powder was deposited, the bullet, which was wrapped in cloth, and tied around with string, was then pushed into the barrel with a separate short rod. As the bullet was pushed below the muzzle, the string holding the cloth patch slipped off. The flanged ram-rod then pushed the bullet down to the powder, but the flange stopped the bullet from crushing the powder, thus improving accuracy. Variations were also tried as to the position of the bullet against the powder; either just against it, or a millimetre or two away from it, to create a very small air-space. "

That is from a Swiss rifle board. There is more discussion of the many types they worked with in the years between development of the Minie and other cylindro-conical bullets for muzzleloaders and the introduction of breechloaders at:
http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo...-puzzle?page=1

Tidewater_Kid · August 11, 2016, 08:51 PM

I found this. Very similar. At least you get an idea what the rear sight should look like.

http://www.gatling-gun.com/SchuetzenTargetRifle.htm

TK

Pahoo · August 12, 2016, 10:09 AM

In many Midwest communities, there were places where German American families would get together, for a Sunday afternoon and the men would go to the range area and shoot these beauties. In my home-town is was called; Schuetzen-Park. My stepfather shot there, in his youth and have seen a number of old photographs with groups of shooters. Needless to say, the photos were very impressive. Later in years the location of the range was lost to local historians. From growing up in the area, I knew of it's location and pointed it out to them. .......

These folks were pretty much German-American and do not recall any other ethnic groups. .

be Safe !!!

Hawg · August 12, 2016, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Later in years the location of the range was lost to local historians. From growing up in the area, I knew of it's location and pointed it out to them. ...

I'd be out there with my metal detector digging up the fired bullets.

bedbugbilly · August 13, 2016, 06:03 PM

I owned a bolt action German Schuetzen for a long time but sold it about five years ago. Mine did not have the rear peep sight either. I once had a fellow stop many years ago that heard I liked guns. He had an original German Shuetzen percussion rifle that was valued at 60K - gold and silver inlay all over it not to mention engraving - that he had brought to show me. Mind you, this was back in the 1960s. Before he let me handle it, he handed me a set of white cotton gloves to put on. It was probably the most expensive firearm I've ever handled and the most ornate Schuetzen I personally have ever seen. It was a WWII "bring back". In talking with him . . . and I have heard this a number of times since . . . it is not uncommon to find Schumetzens without the rear peep. In Germany (and I think I remember this correctly . . if not . . chalk it up to being old) the rifles were kept at the shooting ranges and the rear aperture sighs - which were often delicate in nature, were taken home - thus the rifle and the sight were separated.

A number of the Schuetzens that made it to this country were brought back by returning GIs

If any of you have a hankering to have a percussion one - Pecatonica River does sell kits to build one . . . and you can "gussy it up" as much as you like!

drobs · August 13, 2016, 11:57 PM

A general search of Schuetzen on GB brings up a percussion Pedersoli Schuetzen. Thinking one might be able to obtain a rear sight from them.

Tidewater_Kid · August 14, 2016, 10:12 AM

I see several on eBay, but they aren't cheap.

TK

drobs · August 18, 2016, 11:15 PM

Here's that Pedersoli Schuetzen:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/577278034

I shoot left handed so this wouldn't work too well for me.

August 10, 2016, 10:15 PM	#1
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Aint that a nifty looking rifle - "German Schuetzen" Rifle on Gunbroker Not mine, but could be, or could be yours... http://www.gunbroker.com/item/575186453 "German Schuetzen 1840-1870 Target Set Triggers" Wondering if the parts and pieces on it are made from silver? Any guestimate on caliber? I'm kind of tempted but don't know anything about it. What say the experts here - bid or pass? __________________ NRA Life Member

August 10, 2016, 10:40 PM	#2
Savage99 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Posts: 567	That's really old, a muzzleloader. I have a few Schuetzen's including falling blocks. One is a Remington Hepburn, a Winchester Highwall and the other an Aydt. Last edited by Savage99; August 10, 2016 at 10:51 PM.

August 10, 2016, 10:52 PM	#3
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	I like yours better Savage99. Real nice looking gun. __________________ NRA Life Member

August 10, 2016, 11:24 PM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	I wonder if the rear aperture is included. More importantly, what of the bullet mold for it? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 11, 2016, 08:07 AM	#6
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	No bullet mold sucks. It's easy enough to find the twist, but then you have to do a lot of experimenting to find what bullet will work best in it. Bet it was some type of conical. the other rifle seems more appealing to me. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 10, 2016, 11:51 PM	#5
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Nope and nope, you have to supply your own on both counts. The hardware is German silver.

August 11, 2016, 01:37 PM	#8
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	No silver in German Silver. Called that because of the colour. German Silver is alloys of copper, zinc, and nickel, sometimes containing lead and tin. Schuetzen rifles were kind of the Palma rifles of the 19th Century. 12 to 15 pounds while standing on your hind legs and shooting at 200 yards. Chambering varied, but .40 was the max. As in .38-55 or .32-40. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 11, 2016, 03:02 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	I wonder why he thinks it is German, what with no maker's or proof marks. I wonder why he thinks it is then American history maybe with a Remington barrel. A confused vendor. I have no way of knowing origin, but the trigger guard is flat faced for a Swiss style of offhand shooting. If it is Swiss, the caliber is likely .41 like the famous Swiss Federal. The deep muzzle crown fits the description of the Wild System used on the Swiss Federal: "Look at your muzzle and you will see a rebate. The rod for this barrel would have had (for want of a better word) a "flange" just in from the true end of the rod (these positions varied) to fit exactly inside this recess. This was called the "Wild" system of loading. The powder was deposited, the bullet, which was wrapped in cloth, and tied around with string, was then pushed into the barrel with a separate short rod. As the bullet was pushed below the muzzle, the string holding the cloth patch slipped off. The flanged ram-rod then pushed the bullet down to the powder, but the flange stopped the bullet from crushing the powder, thus improving accuracy. Variations were also tried as to the position of the bullet against the powder; either just against it, or a millimetre or two away from it, to create a very small air-space. " That is from a Swiss rifle board. There is more discussion of the many types they worked with in the years between development of the Minie and other cylindro-conical bullets for muzzleloaders and the introduction of breechloaders at: http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo...-puzzle?page=1

August 11, 2016, 08:51 PM	#10
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I found this. Very similar. At least you get an idea what the rear sight should look like. http://www.gatling-gun.com/SchuetzenTargetRifle.htm TK

August 12, 2016, 10:09 AM	#11
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Schuetzen-Park In many Midwest communities, there were places where German American families would get together, for a Sunday afternoon and the men would go to the range area and shoot these beauties. In my home-town is was called; Schuetzen-Park. My stepfather shot there, in his youth and have seen a number of old photographs with groups of shooters. Needless to say, the photos were very impressive. Later in years the location of the range was lost to local historians. From growing up in the area, I knew of it's location and pointed it out to them. ....... These folks were pretty much German-American and do not recall any other ethnic groups. . be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

August 13, 2016, 06:03 PM	#13
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I owned a bolt action German Schuetzen for a long time but sold it about five years ago. Mine did not have the rear peep sight either. I once had a fellow stop many years ago that heard I liked guns. He had an original German Shuetzen percussion rifle that was valued at 60K - gold and silver inlay all over it not to mention engraving - that he had brought to show me. Mind you, this was back in the 1960s. Before he let me handle it, he handed me a set of white cotton gloves to put on. It was probably the most expensive firearm I've ever handled and the most ornate Schuetzen I personally have ever seen. It was a WWII "bring back". In talking with him . . . and I have heard this a number of times since . . . it is not uncommon to find Schumetzens without the rear peep. In Germany (and I think I remember this correctly . . if not . . chalk it up to being old) the rifles were kept at the shooting ranges and the rear aperture sighs - which were often delicate in nature, were taken home - thus the rifle and the sight were separated. A number of the Schuetzens that made it to this country were brought back by returning GIs If any of you have a hankering to have a percussion one - Pecatonica River does sell kits to build one . . . and you can "gussy it up" as much as you like! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

August 13, 2016, 11:57 PM	#14
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	A general search of Schuetzen on GB brings up a percussion Pedersoli Schuetzen. Thinking one might be able to obtain a rear sight from them. __________________ NRA Life Member

August 14, 2016, 10:12 AM	#15
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I see several on eBay, but they aren't cheap. TK

August 18, 2016, 11:15 PM	#16
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Here's that Pedersoli Schuetzen: http://www.gunbroker.com/item/577278034 I shoot left handed so this wouldn't work too well for me. __________________ NRA Life Member

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