Newbie bore sights his rifle! and a new idea???

[bfskinnerpunk]

Alright... I've been singularly focused on how I'm going to zero this ACOG scope on my AR for the past few days. My genius idea is further below.

The problems goes like this:
The rifle range has insanely bad spotting scopes, so I couldn't see much at all... totally annoying. It was clear that my scope was way off, though. I was only just hitting the circle at 50 yards. (and that was tough to spot, too!).

I ordered a $300 bushnell to solve the spotting scope problem...and to dual purpose it as a bird watching thing.

OK... so I want to bore sight the thing. Through casual conversation at the range, I get the idea of the basic principles involved... it seems pretty obvious although primitive.

Problem:
That 223 barrel is a narrow sucka! It's not like looking through a paper towel tube. It is more like looking through an 18" straw!
So problem #1 is finding a target that shows itself easily through that tube.
Problem #2 is finding a distance that is sufficient for the job. Something over 25 yards preferred.

I read about the laser spotting "bullets" that fit inside and shoot a beam. There are lots of complaints about those things. And if you don't get it set up quickly enough, the battery in those things runs out quick (1 or 2 hours if it is a fresh battery...often not)! But I get the idea. My idea is similar, only in reverse... and avoids the battery problem.

I strolled around the yard.... looked for appropriate spots... thought about the "target".... a white sheet of paper? ... an orange paint spot?.... and what about the background? the target is going to have to contrast smartly against the background just so that I can find it.

Also, what do I use to support the rifle?...keep it stable, keep it from getting off the mark, and have it situated so that it is pointing at the target handsfree etc.

And it's hot and buggy out! Dripping sweat as I bumble around outside is no good.

Here is what I did.

I have a classic folding ladder. I guess it is about 12' tall when it is set up like a TeePee.

I set the ladder at the far end of my yard.

I climb to the top of the ladder and affix my tactical LED flashlight...making sure to aim it right at my rifle. At 25+ yards, it doesn't have to be perfect, though...it sparkles nicely even if it is off target at that distance. (I used a FENIX flashlight...about the diameter of your finger type design.) I'm thinking almost any flashlight with decent brightness would do the job.

Now, I have a step ladder in my house. Yes. Inside! Nice and cool.

The AR's upper has plenty of flat surface along the bottom. The lower is off.

Using books and some playing cards to make adjustments to the height, I get that upper/barrel sitting on top of that indoor stepladder pointing out of my window and toward that flashlight.

That beam of light shows up like a bright little star!

Even when the barrel was off by a foot to the left or right (downrange), there was a nice glimmer-reflection in the barrel that very much helped to bring the barrel back to being spot-on with the light.

I think it worked!

Just by feel, it seems that I'm bringing that ACOG adjustment knob to the end of it's adjustment range (the up and down adjustment knob).

This was a little disconcerting. There is a warning about the possibility of breaking it if you torque it too hard.... I don't know what "too hard" is, but I was gentle as I felt the tension gradually increase. There aren't too many clicks left... I think.

Now, I feel pretty darn certain that I'll be hitting the paper once I'm back at the range.

The scope was way way off.... Through a comedy of errors and the unwanted help from a staff guy at the range a few days ago, I threw that scope way out of zero. Once I began missing the paper entirely, I had no idea how to bring it back to zero...or even close... while still out there. Those lousy spotting scopes were no help, the blazing heat, ... oh man.

So anyway, my stroke of brilliance was the flashlight-outside-idea and the you-and-rifle sitting comfortably inside idea.

I did this all in very, very bright sunlight conditions.... and as long as you have a flashlight, all you need is something to strap it to...like a tree, pole, whatever.

It will be interesting to determine the final result...at the range. Hopefully, it will tell me to click it back down a few notches.

BF

[thesheepdog]

You can actually boresight a rifle by removing the bolt, mounting the upper to something sturdy, and looking at a certain object through the bore, then wherever the bore is pointing, is where you align your crosshairs.

I don't know why you're having to max out the turrets on the ACOG, that doesn't seem right at all. I would double check your "eye-balled" zero before making such a huge adjustment.

[smoakingun]

sheep dog speaks wisdom. bore sight at 25 yards using his method (providing yours did not achieve the desired results) A sand bag works fine, the rifle will hit paper at 25 yards using his method. fire a group. adjust the scope. fire a group, adjust again if necessary. once the rifle prints a group around the middle of the target, you can move out in 25 yard increments, verifing and adjusting zero at each range, or jump straight out to 100 yards, your call. should only take a box of ammo and 45 minutes to acomplish this task

[bfskinnerpunk]

Thanks.

Well... with the "crappy range spotting scope" problem, I was unable to see the darn target... making it very tedious to wait for the signal to go downrange and personally inspect the target.

I just put up a video of my slummy system. Take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LHCGjJS2ww

With the problem of reaching the end of the adjustment... or at least thinking I have reached it...

...There could be a problem with the basic mounting of the scope. I have not touched that aspect of it. You can see the configuration in the video.

I don't know, maybe there needs to be a shim?...or some other way getting it pretty much zero'd right close to the middle of it's elevation setting?

Also, if my distance is close in... like 25 yards... I understand that I should have used the top of those distance cross hairs (underneath the red chevron) as my "on target" sight picture. I didn't do that... lapse of memory... and just used the chevron.

I'll do a rough check on my distance, and if it is close to 25 yards, that will allow me to turn that dial a number of notches back the other way.

Thanks
BF

[Hoskins]

Is your AR a full sized AR? If so, a 36 yd Zero is the same as a 300 yd zero. The line of the trajectory is the same at 36 yds as it is at 300 yds, however, that is with military grade 55gr green tip FMJ ammo.

Aditionally, when you make an adjustment to the ACOG, make sure you give it a couple of taps to seat those adjustments. Seriously, this is common knowledge & common practice in the USMC. I personally know that if you don't do this then the adjustment will not take.

I have done a poor mans bore sight on my guns for a very long time before I picked up a budget bore sight kit. I simply just braced the rifle with books, blankets, & pillows...placed a piece of paper with a black dot in the center on the wall at the end of my hallway...removed the bolt...looked down the barrel to line everything up...adjusted the bore to the dot...secured the rifle...and then made my adjustments. It has always done fine for me & puts me on paper right out of the gate. Definately worth it & saves alot of ammo when zeroing.

A suggestion, if you aint already doing so. When initally zeroing your rifle, make sure that you have a big target back drop. Basically what I mean is use something like a posterboard, disassembled cardboard box, etc... so that if you are 2' off target, you are still hitting something that you can see the bullet hole. If you are using a small target & completely miss it, it is going to be hard to determine if you are hitting high, left, right, etc... Also, it gives you a way to measure just how many inches you are off & gives you an actual # of clicks to adjust...just use a plain ole tape measure if you are that far off.

What type of reticle do you have in the ACOG? Is it the triangle type reticle with the horizontal range lines below it? Are you familar on how to utilize the reticle? Not being condesending, cocky, arrogant, or questioning your knowledge or abilities...just wondering, because I can offer knowledge on the reticle. I & my Marines used the ACOGs in Fallujah, Iraq & Afghanistan. I have personally laser bore sighted them as well...even though our so called "weapons specialists" said that there wasn't any data for bore sighting them. Now, they said that when we first started getting the ACOGs...I did it & it worked great, most of my Marines were on target & only needed to make minor adjustments to dial it the rest of the way in.

[Hoskins]

Ok, you posted as I was typing. Sounds like you have the Triangle/chevron style reticle. Here is the appropriate use of the reticle; details below:

*Top Tip of the chevron: 100 yds & less

*Entire Chevron: 200 yds (Basically the tip should be an a human targets head & each horizontal end of the chevron on each shoulder, this is the proper alignment)

*Tip of the orange portion of the verticle line below the chevron: 300 yds

*First horizontal line on the verticle reticle line: 400 yds

*Each horizontal line below that is in 100 yds increments.

Hope this helps.

[FoxtrotRomeo]

I sometimes have issues with getting to my target to verify what I did with the group in question. I go to a busy range and I understand no one wants to stop shooting because they're having a good time. So I pulled another trick I found out from a sniper. Aim for a very small part of the earthwork backstop and watch through your optic for the dirt to kick up. At the base of the ploom of dirt and dust that kicked up is pretty close to your actual POI (Point of Impact). Try using that trick through your optic and adjust according to what your grouping indicates. Then repeat till you got it. I also use a friend of mine for a spotter too. He is all around a more experienced shooter than myself so he's your sterotypical spotter. We zeroed in my red dot recently using the earthwork backstop for my AR.

I don't like using a laser bore sight unless I have a dark back ground to shine it on. A light colored one it's harder to see the dot.

The one I use for my firearms, I bought at Wal-Mart. It goes in the bore at the muzzle and has attachments from .22 to .50 so I'm good to go.

[James R. Burke]

If you new were it was hitting, I just would have made a adjustment, and went on from there. Done.

[L_Killkenny]

If you new were it was hitting, I just would have made a adjustment, and went on from there. Done.

I agree. Folks make too much work outta sighting in a gun. I start at 25 yards with a big chunk of cardboard and get my gun zero'd there, maybe a touch low at that range. Then move to 100 yards. Never bought or used a bore sighter but give me 10-15 rounds and I'll have a gun sighted in. Not brain science.

LK

[Beentown71]

Not brain science.

Classic TFL line.

Beentown

[bfskinnerpunk]

Thanks folks...

I'm un-insultable at this level of newbie-ness.... so no worries.

The use of a flashlight shining back at the rifle was my big idea. I've never heard the suggestion, but it solved my problem of seeing over 25 yards through that tiny hole.

The range was impractical and I don't have a field where I can just go shoot.

After screwing around with no strategy, I (with the help of a dude at the range) did exactly the wrong things... the comedy of errors part. There were only three of us at the range, but a little boy kept shooting at my targets, too... that was part of the comedy and confusion problem.

Once the scope was way, way out of zero... I was out of usable targets. The rest of the time was just spent going through rounds to check for reliability on this new (used) rifle.

That I needed to bring the ACOG to the limits of its adjustment hopefully won't be a problem once I get to the range.

To the Marine..
My understanding is that the 300meter line is supposed to be used at the 25 yard mark as well.

My ACOG might be a slightly older design. I don't think there is a horizontal "yellow" line. It is just black.

BF

[bfskinnerpunk]

I paid 1,300 for the rifle used.

The guy told me he paid $2,700 two years ago.

It was kinda hard to pass up. It is overkill for a guy like me, but it seems to be of pretty darn good quality for a reasonable price.

I might sell it... or sell parts of it.

I'd like a smaller/lighter AR.. with maybe a 14.5" barrel... and a less expensive scope.

BF

[Buzzcook]

There are targets that indicate where you hit by turning color.

If you are on paper at fifty yards, then you don't have to bore sight. Just zero from there.

[TXGunNut]

I've been using a method I call "redneck boresighting" for a few years with good results. Used it recently, hit within 5" of POA @ 100yds first shot. Guy next to me had his rifle boresighted but skipped the 25 yd line and burned up several rounds trying to get on target, wound up off the paper. I bagged his gun, picked a bright-colored target down range and centered it in the bore. I then brought the crosshairs to the center of the target. First shot a tad low, second in the bull after correcting. Even the RO thought it was magic. Doesn't work that well every time but so far I'm on paper every time. Even works with peeps and a BPCR. That's more than I can say for the average boresighter, even some of the better ones.

[casper_au]

As has already been pointed out by previous responses bore sighting does not require expensive equipment. Every time I mount a new scope I put the rifle in a vice in the workshop. Then, mount the scope and ensure it is centered (this means wind the windage and elevation knobs all the way one way, then all the way the other way counting the clicks. Halve the number of clicks and wind both to center).

Next, I open the workshop door and find an aimpoint in the garden (around 25 yds away). Look down the barrel to see this aimpoint. Now look through the scope and make any minor adjustments. If you have to wind either knob excessively you may need to shim the mounts. Get it aligned so you can set the cross hairs on the same aimpoint you can see through the barrel.

You are now boresighted! Take it to the range and fire three round groups at a target around 50 yds away. The initial boresighting should make it easy to get on paper at that range. Aim at the center of the target for each shot in the group. The point here is to get a tight group wherever on the paper you are actually hitting. Once you have your group (assuming its a good one) make the necessary adjustments to the scope windage and elevation and shoot another three round group. Keep doing this until you are on center of the target. This should not take more than 3-4 groups with some practice. Check your scopes manual - it'll tell you how many clicks you need at a given range to move a certain number of inches. Remember - when adjusting the scope you move the knobs in the direction you want the shot to fall. This means that if you are shooting to the RIGHT by an inch, you need to adjust the scope windage knob to the LEFT 4 clicks (or however many you need for that scope/range). Think of it like 'I want to drag the shot to the LEFT to bring it onto target'.

Once you've got it zero'd at 50 yds move it out to 100 and do the same. If you have a rifle that's pretty flat like a .223 you should find this exercise much quicker. Keep moving out until you are at the desired 'zero' range.

[bfskinnerpunk]

Well, I'm a little under-equipped compared to the serious shooter.

I have no gun vice (nor regular vice)... no workshop per-se either.

The vice is yet another issue, really.

As I bumble about, I can never really exclude "shooter error" from any given shot....even with the bipod and sandbag.

Once I get this darn spotting scope, I'll be able to work this out. You've got to, at a minimum, see what is happening downrange.

I don't mind wasting bullets as I work through the learning curve on this.

I need to make a few more classic mistakes before my skills and thinking get it together! That's usually how I learn...and I suspect the same for others.

Today, I re-sighted the scope with that flashlight technique. First, though, I turned the elevation screw way back ...many many clicks.... to get away from the limit of elevation that it was currently at.

I tried to count clicks and then divide by half, but as I was turning the knob it felt like I was sort of unscrewing it. If I kept going, I had the impression that I would be removing the screw (or whatever it's called)... so I stopped. I counted like 80 something clicks and stopped there.

So, I turned back to what seemed like midway and started from there.

Interestingly, my bore zero wasn't nearly as close to that upper limit as before. It was close to that limit... but not as close.

I do need to build-up a workshop in the garage area.

BF

[Stephanie B]

I did basically what Hoskins said in order to sight in a Mosin with a PU scope, except that I used a large corrugated box with a "V" cut into opposite sides of the box. I had to be very careful not to move it and it took a lot of time to do (because I was filing down the feet of the PU mount), but it got me within a few inches of the center at the first shot.

[Speedy Warrior]

What I've done to get close is to put the lower off and hold a $3 laser pointer in the breach and set my scope to that (works well for ar's and bolt action rifles). This will get you colse so you will hit paper and can adjust zero from there. Without a good spotting scope you just have to wait. It sucks but you could walk up and down the range looking at the other guns other people are shooting. That's what I do.

[ndking1126]

at this level of newbie-ness....

The use of a flashlight shining back at the rifle was my big idea.

Great problem solving.. I congratulate you for your solution to your problem. Now-a-days all to many people think throwing money into the latest gadget is the solution. I'm not knocking technology or trying new things, but bore-sighting is not a hard thing to do.. I can't imagine putting money into the process. You might have over-engineered just a little though

My personal preference is using the table and my gun rest (super solid) lined up with either a door knob or a lamp. Which one depends on how much room I have to work with and also how big the bore is (I've done from .223 to .30-06). Before I got a gun rest, I got behind the couch and rested the rifle on the back of the couch.

If I'm close, say 10 feet or so, I'll look at something small (doorknob) and put the cross hairs about 1.5-2 inches high. At 25 yards the point of impact is going to still be a little low, but if I do it right it's never more than a few inches off at 100. Again, assuming I am not careless, I can sight in a rifle in 5-6 shots.

[thesheepdog]

bfskinnerpunk,

I bore sighted my AR 6.5, just for kicks, and looked down the bore, and then through the sight at a predetermined object, and both line up perfectly. Just proves my theory works.

[bfskinnerpunk]

The laser sound like the ticket... but didn't want to wait for it to come through the mail.

What surprised me is that so many people just eyeball right down the barrel. When I first looked, I though, "I'm supposed to see stuff through that long dark hole?". {ok... nobody say "that's what she said"}

That's what motivated me to think up a "bright" solution to that problem.

So now, I wait for ammo and that spotting scope. I'm really looking forward to that scope. How have a gone so long without knowing what my neighbors are doing?

BF

[dzavoina]

Have you tried using the "dirty Bird" targets that you can see the impact points easier?

[orionengnr]

I did it the way TXGunNut and CasperAu did it...but I did it about 30 years ago with my first AR.
Took the bolt out of the AR, balanced it on an ammo can on the counter, pointed it up the street at a car ~ 100 feet away. Looked through the barrel, pointed it at the car's front door. Looked through the scope, and adjusted until the scope pointed where the barrel was pointing.

Worked great. I've used the same technique many times over the years. Works great with ARs an bolt rifles.

I have used a "modified technique" for .22s, air rifles and Mini-14s. Look through the iron sights, then look through the scope. The iron sights are *generally* well-regulated enough to get the scope to sight on paper. I have also used the "modified technique" to pre-sight a Crimson Trace, albeit at shorter range. Works just fine.

[TXGunNut]

+1 on the spotting scope. Best piece of shooting equipment this old fat man ever bought.
Orionengnr? Al Gore just called, he says he invented this method of bore sighting.
Thanks for the iron sight tip, I'll be swapping/installing a couple of scopes on leverguns this weekend. Not too thrilled about taking the bolts out.

[ndking1126]

2 hours per scope saving you 100's of $ an hour over a lifetime.

I don't even know what to say. 10 minutes tops, and that includes pulling the gun out from underneath the bed and putting it back when you're done.