French rifle ?

[eric21]

Hi i am new to this site and i was hoping to get help identifying a rifle that a friend has it may be french it is stamped on the side ET'ts Continsowza Mle-M-16. It is bolt action with a deep internal mag. It is a very small unknown caliber (he does not remember) It is dated on the stock 1921 wtih the letters C. Derembre. C. The barrel is dated on the right side 1918 it has the serial # bc 33074. we are looking to learn a little info about it such as caliber,make,age
and the value any help with this will be greatly appreciated.
Also wanted say that i love this site

[James K]

Hi, eric21,

There was a French military rifle designated as the Model (Mle) 1916, used in WWI, and still in reserve in WWII for what part the French had in it. It is a 5 shot, bolt action, loading with an "en-bloc" clip that enters the magazine, in the Mannlicher style. The cartridge is the 8x50R Lebel, which is large at the base and so takes a lot of room, requiring a deep magazine which extends well below the wood stock. There is no safety, but there is a deep round cut in the cocking piece with knurling.

The markings, though, I don't recognize. The "ET'ts" could be "Etats" ("states"), possibly a marking put on by some government that acquired the rifle after WWI (though who would possibly want a Mle. 1916 I don't know). Can you take a better look and see what other markings might be on the rifle.

HTH

Jim

[eric21]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Keenan:
Hi, eric21,

There was a French military rifle designated as the Model (Mle) 1916, used in WWI, and still in reserve in WWII for what part the French had in it. It is a 5 shot, bolt action, loading with an "en-bloc" clip that enters the magazine, in the Mannlicher style. The cartridge is the 8x50R Lebel, which is large at the base and so takes a lot of room, requiring a deep magazine which extends well below the wood stock. There is no safety, but there is a deep round cut in the cocking piece with knurling.

The markings, though, I don't recognize. The "ET'ts" could be "Etats" ("states"), possibly a marking put on by some government that acquired the rifle after WWI (though who would possibly want a Mle. 1916 I don't know). Can you take a better look and see what other markings might be on the rifle.

HTH

Jim


[/quote]
THanks for the info on the rifle the only other markings other than what we assume is the serial # (33074) are on the top of the barrel it is stamped with the letter n,on the bottom of the mag well there is a boxed in MAC , And the last markings are on the left side of the barrel these are cc circle j, circle c followed by the serial #
again thanks for the info Do you have an idea of the value ? He thinks it might be worth 30 bucks i think it might be a little higher at least fifty.

[fal308]

You might try www.gunsworld.com then click on French guns. The Mle 16 was also called the Berthier. Go to the Berthier page for some photos for comparison.

[Harley Nolden]

eric21:
From your description you do have the Berthier French rifle. The following may help you identify it also.

BERTHIER
Country of origin: France


When the Germans adopted the Mauser and the Austro-Hungarians the Mannlicher, the French realized that the Lebel was inferior to the rifles of their enemies. After deliberating they
sanctioned the issue of a small number of a cavalry carbine designed by a committee headed by Andre Betrthier. The carbine continued to use the bolt action used on the 1886 rifle and its
derivatives, but adopted a magazine similar to the Mannllicher. The carbine Mle 1890 was loaded through the action with a clip containing three cartridges.

A modified model of the carbine came about in 1892, these carbines were almost identical to the 1890 models. Various other rifles followed, similar in action to the carbines and differing
only in dimensions. This included the 1902 and 1907 models.

The Berthier action was a modified Lebel with the locking axis changed from horizontal to vertical and the substitution of a clip loaded magazine for the fore end. Though elegant and
quite popular in France, the Berthier action was awkward, and a gap between the bolt and the right side of the magazine above the receiver allowed dirt to enter. Rigorous service during WWI
soon revealed the weakness of the slender rifle stock, and also that accuracy was generally inferior to that of the Lebel. Consequently, small numbers of the sturdier and more durable Mle.
86/93 rifles were retained after 1918 for grenade launching and sniping.

In 1937 this rifle was the transformation of the old Mle 1902 colonial rifle to approximate the New Mle 07/15 M.34. it retained the original turned down bolt handle, but displayed a
mark such as Type SE-MAS 1902M37 on the left side of the receiver.

I also have the dimensional data on the rifle and ammunition if you would like to have it.

HJN

[eric21]

THANKS FOR THE HELP. You guys answered alot of questions for us.

[James K]

FWIW, MAC is Manufacture d'Armes Chatellerault, one of the two big French arsenals; the other is St. Etienne (MAS).

Jim