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June 25, 2013, 10:07 AM | #26 | |||
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But maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, since laws can be complex, and, not being a lawyer, maybe the nuances here are not clear to me. So I'm trying to make sure I understand what this ruling actually means. So let me ask you the 2nd part of my question to Fishing Cabin: Now that this opinion has been handed down, is it correct to say I do not have a right to remain silent without first speaking (then hopefully returning to silence) and more, my speech must include some very specific legal verbiage referencing the correct amendment? Last edited by speedrrracer; June 25, 2013 at 10:16 AM. |
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June 25, 2013, 11:35 AM | #27 | |
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The problem with seeing this decision as am imposition on the 5th Am. is that, as Spats notes, the 5th doesn't describe a right to remain silent. Of course, we have a sense that it does from thousands of cop shows, but that isn't in the COTUS itself. In Salinas, the prosecutor appears to have used a hearsay exception, a party admission. The defendant wasn't compelled to testify at all, but the testimony of others about the conduct indicating guilt was admitted. This doesn't strike me as novel ground, even of the plurality reasoning is at odds with some of our ideas about how and why we hold rights.
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June 25, 2013, 12:01 PM | #28 | |
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Now we're fleshing out the boundaries of the "right", as is done with all rights over time, and that's part of the process. |
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June 25, 2013, 12:14 PM | #29 | |
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The peril arises when the link between constitutional text and case law is so attenuated that case law develops primarily in reference to itself rather than to the underlying document. The counter analogy might be Miller and Heller. One could conceivably have resolved the question presented by Heller with some of the ideas presented in Miller, namely that the Second Amendment protects primarily or exclusively arms suitable for militia service. Heller did not do that, and is no mere extension of Miller.
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June 25, 2013, 01:55 PM | #30 | |||
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http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1470.pdf Quote:
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Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; June 25, 2013 at 02:09 PM. |
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June 25, 2013, 02:19 PM | #31 |
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Another way perhaps to look at Salinas is that brings the "silence" issue more in line with the general proposition that evidence of conduct is admissible. Silence can be a subset of conduct or part of a course of conduct. It's long been accepted that conduct can be probative of, among other things, state of mind, and that a trier of fact may draw inferences from conduct.
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June 25, 2013, 07:20 PM | #32 |
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This decision, and the discussion in this thread concerning its implications, just reinforces in me the sense of dread at I have ever being the subject of a police investigation.
I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent individual, but the more I hear about what I need to know to avoid potential legal pitfalls when talking to police, the less confident I feel in saying anything. And now, it seems, even avoiding saying anything can be a mistake. And all of this would in all likelihood be taking place under highly stressful circumstances. I'd like to believe that "the system" is basically benign and forgiving of those that are "just trying to do the right thing" and haven't "done anything wrong", but I just can't muster any trust that that is anything but naive. I have no confidence that I would be able to differentiate in a meaningful way whether I was "in custody", NOT "in custody", or somewhere in between, and to be able to use the proper incantations at the appropriate times to avoid seriously screwing myself over by accident, even if I am "innocent". I think, if this dire situation ever arises, i.e. I shoot an intruder in my home, all I should say is "Officer, I want to cooperate, and I will, but even though I believe I acted appropriately and legally here, I'm really afraid of saying anything at all until I have an attorney to advise me." I can't help but feel there is a problem when the law-abiding realistically need to fear talking to a cop when they've defended themselves. Oh well. |
June 25, 2013, 08:14 PM | #33 | |||||
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I'll repeat what I said earlier. Historically, a defendant was expected to explain himself to a judicial official before trial and the judicial official could infer guilt from the defendant's failure to do so. He simply could not be compelled to testify at trial. And, to my knowledge, truly involuntary confessions have always been inadmissible; e.g., confessions obtained by torture. Speedrrracer, you quoted me: Quote:
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It is indeed frustrating that our laws can seem so complicated. Yet, life is complicated. Since you're an engineer, think in terms of the Chaos Theory. While the overall effect of something may be quantified and predicted, the behavior of individual molecules cannot be predicted with absolute certainty. Individuals are the molecules and there are a multitude of factors which can influence those molecules and how they react. It is up to the law and the lawyers to use general rules and apply them to very specific and, perhaps, unique circumstances. DanF said: Quote:
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June 25, 2013, 10:32 PM | #34 | ||
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1. I am a LEO and while we (LE) are complained about being the "thought police", by remaining silent, the person being question/interrogated/etc, is relying on LE to read their thoughts instead of actually unambiguously claiming their fifth amendment right. If a person actually wanted their right, why would they not want to actually claim it as theirs by invoking it, instead of leaving it to a chance interpretation? 2. By remaining "silent" as in mute, how does LE know that you not only understand the question, language, etc, but also have a level of cognitive intelligence to answer the questions at hand? In all honesty, the folks who claim "don't talk to police" or "remain silent" always puzzle me... After all, if they did not want to be questioned, according to SCOTUS, its simple to end any questioning by just simply invoking your right. I guess I just don't get why folks do not want to invoke their right, but instead want to play the silence "game"... ETA: I know, and agree with this SCOTUS decision. I just would like to hear from the other side who may feel that silence alone is enough, instead of actually invoking their right. Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; June 25, 2013 at 10:37 PM. |
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June 25, 2013, 10:52 PM | #35 |
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Fishing_Cabin -- I think you pretty well answered the question you posed to me. The Supreme Court stated some of the same concerns you did.
I'll also mention that a state court might read read a state constitutional right more broadly than the federal constitutional right. |
June 26, 2013, 05:56 PM | #36 | ||||
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However, that is part of my point, and part of the problem. No one should have to know, say, or do anything in order to enjoy their rights, and piling on extra rulings about when you can and when you can't and what you have to say to whom under what circumstances seems ridiculous, because it creates a system where only some inner circle knows how to effect this right (and even then only if they get it right in a stressful moment). Why should anyone be forced to ever take action to claim their rights? Because it makes LE's life easier? Does anyone seriously believe that the Founding Fathers created this nation to make LE's life easier? Quote:
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so they figure that if they say nothing, then there's nothing to be used against them. Certainly no educational system is informing them of the rules on how to play the ever-changing "effect your rights" game, and in this society, even if such education existed, it would force you to sign a waiver disclaiming any liability for giving you incorrect instructions in that regard! I agree life is complicated, and I can generally stomach therefore that many laws tend towards the complicated, but I'm having trouble believing that this country was founded so that the enjoyment of rights should be so burdened. |
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June 26, 2013, 06:44 PM | #37 | |||||
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On the other hand, silence is a form of conduct, and it's long been the fact that conduct can be evidence and that a jury may draw inferences from conduct.
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June 26, 2013, 09:20 PM | #38 |
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I agree all the cases you cite show examples of behavior, and I agree behavior should generally be admissible, but calling silence behavior to me is plainly wrong.
Behavior implies action, and silence is quite obviously the absence of the speech action. The default condition of the human body is silence, and so to call that behavior is ridiculous. Therefore, corpses can now be said to exhibit legal behavior. Madness. |
June 26, 2013, 09:35 PM | #39 | |||
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"Conduct" means: That can clearly include keeping silent when asked a question. Not answering is in a particular instance is the manner of response. And even behavior could include keeping silent. "Behavior" means:
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June 26, 2013, 09:38 PM | #40 | |
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This sort of evidence has long been admissible in both civil and criminal cases. It's not ridiculous. It's a logical inference based upon common human behavior. |
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June 26, 2013, 09:44 PM | #41 | |
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I see Frank was a bit quicker in responding.
Let me respond to another point: Quote:
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June 26, 2013, 10:54 PM | #42 | |||||
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Frank and KyJim already pointed out other issues as well. I am just trying to answer your questions point to point, and I hope that helps. No offense intended. speedrracer, I do thank you for your thoughts. Im not trying to pick on you either, just trying to better understand the other point of view. Please do not take offense. FC Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; June 26, 2013 at 10:59 PM. |
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June 27, 2013, 10:50 AM | #43 | ||||||
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This is especially true since we're going to continue down this inane path of ever-more complicated legislation, and still maintain the obscene notion that ignorance of the law is no excuse. We need to own up to the fact that due to the ridiculously complicated legal system, ignorance of the law is now the default position, and legal aid is therefore to be provided unless rejected. That requires no input from anyone. Quote:
My taxes shouldn't only pay the bill for people whose sole job is to find evidence to convict me, in fact they should preferentially pay for public servants whose sole job it is to protect me and my rights, since as we all know, the police do not need to protect citizens (at least, according to my understanding of Gonzalez, Warren v D.C., et al) Quote:
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However, I suspect with your experience you can come up with a better / more specific scenario that will perhaps change my opinion. I'd like to hear it, if you don't mind. Quote:
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June 27, 2013, 11:04 AM | #44 | |
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Behaviors, conduct and responses may all indicate a guilty state of mind. If I am wearing the shiny badge and the magic blue shirt and I ask you "did you shoot John Smith?" and you respond with "well, yes. Yes I did.", I will come to a conclusion based on that response. If I pose the question and you turn around and run away as fast as you can, I will imagine that you have chosen a course of action that reflects your interests and your state of mind. The same may be said of the affirmative act of deciding to go silent.
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June 27, 2013, 11:29 AM | #45 | |
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June 27, 2013, 12:42 PM | #46 | ||||
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Second, as more of a policy matter than anything else, why should we not expect people to speak up and say that they'd like to exercise their rights? Should we not expect and encourage them to take some minimal steps to exercise those rights. Saying "I want a lawyer," or "I'm going to exercise my Fifth Amendment right now" hardly seems burdensome. Quote:
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Officer Friendly: What's your name? Spats: Spats McGee Officer Friendly: Where are you headed today? Spats: To work. Officer Friendly: (pauses briefly to listen to his radio) Do you know why I stopped you? Spats: No. Now, in that conversation, could it not be said that I made a "transition to silence" at the end of every one of my sentences? What about the pause that the officer took to listen to his radio? Is that a transition to silence, such as to trigger the Sixth Amendment right to counsel, just because I was polite enough to not talk while he was trying to listen? If the ends of the sentences were such transitions, did I then waive my Fifth Amendment right not to be compelled to testify, just by answering the next question?
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June 27, 2013, 03:42 PM | #47 | |||||
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(I continue to enjoy, learn from, and appreciate all answers in this thread)
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Oh, you say, but couldn't your silence be used by a prosecutor to turn that jury against you? Probably, and that's at the feet of the lawyers I was complaining about earlier. (Presumably) Innocent man, instantly damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, all because of this wonderful system we have. Quote:
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SCOTUS's solution, taken to it's extreme, does what? The destruction of personal liberty via an endless array of increasingly-complicated legal hoops through which we must all jump, only to satisfy an omnipotent LE / govt. I guess I'll take my extreme for $200, Alex. More importantly, which extreme is more likely Constitutional? Quote:
As for asking specifically for 5A rights, again, how many Americans do you really think have any idea what the 5A encompasses? 5%? There's no consideration given for what an average citizen will be going through in such a scenario. Average citizen is likely uneducated, terrified of the cops, terrified of going to jail, terrified of saying the wrong thing. Maybe he doesn't even speak English -- here in CA, that's closing in on a likelihood. These are the people that rights are supposed to protect, but instead we continue to complicate the decision tree such people are supposed to magically know and process, without error, under great duress. For what reason? To make life easier on LE? Last edited by speedrrracer; June 27, 2013 at 04:05 PM. |
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June 27, 2013, 04:11 PM | #48 | |||||
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June 27, 2013, 04:34 PM | #49 |
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The flip-side of this, as Mas has been known to point out in print and in MAG-40, is that for LEO-involved shootings, it is normal for the officers to not be questioned for 24+ hours, and then only with a representative present.
This begs the question, why does it not imply some sort of guilt for the officers to wait to give statements until they have had time to get their nerves under control, and confer with reps? Or the converse, why does it imply some sort of guilt for the rest of us? |
June 27, 2013, 05:26 PM | #50 | |
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