Tried my 230 grain Truncated Cone bullets today

maillemaker · April 27, 2011, 09:09 AM

So some of you may remember my post about the problems I was having with failure to extract with the Lee 230 grain LRN bullets I had reloaded:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...s/problems.htm
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...s/problems.htm

Well, last weekend I took about 40 rounds loaded up with Lee 230 grain Truncated Cone bullets. These have the advantage in that there is no shoulder around the base of the bullet nose - the cone goes right up to the maximum diameter of the bullet.

I figured this would eliminate the "step" from the base of the bullet nose to the outside edge of the brass, which was measuring about .027" with the Lee RN bullets.

I had one hang-up out of 40.

http://forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/s...10424-1655.jpg
http://forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/s...10424-1655.jpg
http://forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/s...10424-1656.jpg

Sorry for the blurry pictures.

In this single case, it appears the extracting case rim dug into the lead of the bullet nose beneath it. However, the extractor did not gouge the rim badly.

I was using 4.6 grains of Bullseye. No signs of overpressure on the cases.

Steve

maillemaker · April 27, 2011, 09:12 AM

One thing I just noticed.

Notice how the top round in the magazine is pulled forward. This is exactly how it was when I dropped the magazine.

I wonder if during the chambering of a cartridge if it is somehow dragging the cartridge below it partially out of the magazine? Not sure how that could be possible though.

Steve

Slamfire · April 27, 2011, 10:20 AM

I looked at your previous posts and you have been at this for a while.

In one post you said your P90 works fine with factory ammunition and one brand of aftermarket lead bullets.

Some have suggested magazine issues. Others have given you sizing and depth advice.

I don’t have these issues with any of the commercial cast LRN or LRN (truncated cone) 230’s I have used in my M1911’s

I taper crimp my 45 ACP with an RCBS taper crimp die, and I taper crimp to 0.469”. I am not certain that a Lee taper crimp die really puts on a taper crimp, or is some sort of a taper crimp. The mouth of my cases is close to flush against the bullet. No particular edge for anything to catch.

Don't worry about "headspacing" on the mouth of the case. While headspace may be measured that way, my M1911's work fine with my reloads which have nothing in particular to headspace up front. I think I get good ignition due to the rim being held by the extractor.

Your pistol should not be having these issues. I am of the opinion that what you have is a mechanical issue. Something is out of tolerance in your pistol. It may be as simple as the magazine seating too high inside the pistol. Maybe some M1911 smiths can chime in on this, but I don’t think the extracted rim should be rubbing against the next cartridge coming off the stack. It is likely that small differences in the diameters of factory ammunition and your bullets is enough to cause a failure to extract.

pstrlipscomb · April 27, 2011, 11:04 AM

I shot about 150 of these without a hiccup from my Kimber 5" with Kimber mag last week. They were very lightly crimped. Sounds like a mechanical problem to me too.

CherokeeT · April 27, 2011, 12:42 PM

If you are using the Lee 230TC (not TL), sized .452, I seat mine at 1.185" OAL and have 100% function in several different 1911's and other 45's. Try different mags or have your local gunsmith look at the gun. Cartridges moving toward the front of the mag is not unusual and should not be a problem.

mikld · April 27, 2011, 12:49 PM

Perhaps your magazine is causing the problem. The top round too high in the magazine so the extracted case hits th bullet of the top round?

My P90 has fed everything I've put in the magazines, but I don't have any TC rounds loaded up; I'll have to try them in my P90...

After looking at some more of your pics, how does the extractor look? Could there be grunge under the extractor so that it doesn't get a good grip on the rim? Or perhape not enough spring tension? Just some thoughts, 'cause my Ruger has been almost flawless.

Poodleshooter · April 27, 2011, 01:45 PM

Take a caliper to a sampling of your bullets: two measurements of the diameter,taken at 90deg offset from one another. Let us know the dimensions. They should be .452" consistently.
Measure the case mouth width at the highest point, on a crimped,loaded round. Let us know the dimension. It should be .471-.472,IIRC.

That might help us diagnose the "bullet vs load vs gun" question.

I've run the Lee 230grTC (TL version) through a P90, G30 and a 1911 so far. The 1911 was by far the most forgiving, but my issues in the other two were mostly bullet related, and were eventually solved.

maillemaker · April 27, 2011, 01:58 PM

Here are my measurements:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...lems/sizes.htm

I meant to post this in the first post but double-posted my problems page.

I am crimping to .469-.470.

Truncated Cone bullet (Tumble Lube) measures .452 dead on.

chris in va · April 28, 2011, 10:11 PM

Your first Lee boolit was the tumble lube design. Should have gone with the 452-228-1r mold instead. I've had nothing but problems with the TL design in 9mm and 45.

April 27, 2011, 09:09 AM	#1
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Tried my 230 grain Truncated Cone bullets today So some of you may remember my post about the problems I was having with failure to extract with the Lee 230 grain LRN bullets I had reloaded: http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...s/problems.htm http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...s/problems.htm Well, last weekend I took about 40 rounds loaded up with Lee 230 grain Truncated Cone bullets. These have the advantage in that there is no shoulder around the base of the bullet nose - the cone goes right up to the maximum diameter of the bullet. I figured this would eliminate the "step" from the base of the bullet nose to the outside edge of the brass, which was measuring about .027" with the Lee RN bullets. I had one hang-up out of 40. http://forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/s...10424-1655.jpg http://forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/s...10424-1655.jpg http://forth-armoury.com/temp/1853/s...10424-1656.jpg Sorry for the blurry pictures. In this single case, it appears the extracting case rim dug into the lead of the bullet nose beneath it. However, the extractor did not gouge the rim badly. I was using 4.6 grains of Bullseye. No signs of overpressure on the cases. Steve

April 27, 2011, 10:20 AM	#3
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I looked at your previous posts and you have been at this for a while. In one post you said your P90 works fine with factory ammunition and one brand of aftermarket lead bullets. Some have suggested magazine issues. Others have given you sizing and depth advice. I don’t have these issues with any of the commercial cast LRN or LRN (truncated cone) 230’s I have used in my M1911’s I taper crimp my 45 ACP with an RCBS taper crimp die, and I taper crimp to 0.469”. I am not certain that a Lee taper crimp die really puts on a taper crimp, or is some sort of a taper crimp. The mouth of my cases is close to flush against the bullet. No particular edge for anything to catch. Don't worry about "headspacing" on the mouth of the case. While headspace may be measured that way, my M1911's work fine with my reloads which have nothing in particular to headspace up front. I think I get good ignition due to the rim being held by the extractor. Your pistol should not be having these issues. I am of the opinion that what you have is a mechanical issue. Something is out of tolerance in your pistol. It may be as simple as the magazine seating too high inside the pistol. Maybe some M1911 smiths can chime in on this, but I don’t think the extracted rim should be rubbing against the next cartridge coming off the stack. It is likely that small differences in the diameters of factory ammunition and your bullets is enough to cause a failure to extract. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

April 27, 2011, 11:04 AM	#4
pstrlipscomb Member Join Date: March 18, 2011 Posts: 71	I shot about 150 of these without a hiccup from my Kimber 5" with Kimber mag last week. They were very lightly crimped. Sounds like a mechanical problem to me too. __________________ I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me. - Jesus Christ

April 27, 2011, 12:42 PM	#5
CherokeeT Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2008 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 273	If you are using the Lee 230TC (not TL), sized .452, I seat mine at 1.185" OAL and have 100% function in several different 1911's and other 45's. Try different mags or have your local gunsmith look at the gun. Cartridges moving toward the front of the mag is not unusual and should not be a problem. __________________ God Bless America US Army, NRA Endowment TSRA Life, SASS

April 27, 2011, 12:49 PM	#6
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Perhaps your magazine is causing the problem. The top round too high in the magazine so the extracted case hits th bullet of the top round? My P90 has fed everything I've put in the magazines, but I don't have any TC rounds loaded up; I'll have to try them in my P90... After looking at some more of your pics, how does the extractor look? Could there be grunge under the extractor so that it doesn't get a good grip on the rim? Or perhape not enough spring tension? Just some thoughts, 'cause my Ruger has been almost flawless. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees... Last edited by mikld; April 27, 2011 at 12:57 PM.

April 27, 2011, 09:12 AM	#2
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	One thing I just noticed. Notice how the top round in the magazine is pulled forward. This is exactly how it was when I dropped the magazine. I wonder if during the chambering of a cartridge if it is somehow dragging the cartridge below it partially out of the magazine? Not sure how that could be possible though. Steve

April 27, 2011, 01:45 PM	#7
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Take a caliper to a sampling of your bullets: two measurements of the diameter,taken at 90deg offset from one another. Let us know the dimensions. They should be .452" consistently. Measure the case mouth width at the highest point, on a crimped,loaded round. Let us know the dimension. It should be .471-.472,IIRC. That might help us diagnose the "bullet vs load vs gun" question. I've run the Lee 230grTC (TL version) through a P90, G30 and a 1911 so far. The 1911 was by far the most forgiving, but my issues in the other two were mostly bullet related, and were eventually solved.

April 27, 2011, 01:58 PM	#8
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Here are my measurements: http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/bu...lems/sizes.htm I meant to post this in the first post but double-posted my problems page. I am crimping to .469-.470. Truncated Cone bullet (Tumble Lube) measures .452 dead on.

April 28, 2011, 10:11 PM	#9
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Your first Lee boolit was the tumble lube design. Should have gone with the 452-228-1r mold instead. I've had nothing but problems with the TL design in 9mm and 45.