Pushing down on shots

golfballshootr · April 7, 2010, 12:45 PM

I may need help in the title, but here is the issue;

This weekend, we had a gathering of friends and family and another couple that has came before to our get-togethers, but only the husband in this couple shoots. His wife has recently started showing an interest in shooting and she wants to get a CCW permit.

So. I'll try to explain in detail to gain help for her, where I and others could not.

When she shot his XD, she was shooting 10 yard target and hitting almost every time in bottom half to third of the target. So, I assume she is pushing the weapon down as she fires and get her the only pistol that I have with a laser, Glock 17.

She shoots the G17 and mostly COM. So, I tell them her to put a box through it and then see if she has the kinks worked out and go back to the XD.

She shoots a full box, doing rather well and makes the swap back to the XD. Once she switched back to the XD, she is now hitting low again every round. Her husband shoots it (the XD), COM, another woman shoots it (the XD), COM. His wife then shoots the G17 with laser not activated and hits low, same as the XD.

As it appears that, and I am only guessing here, she is pushing down as she fires, what drill can she do or mechanics can she work on to help her? She was moderately displeased to say the least with her shooting abilities after that and don't want to see her get discouraged.

I am at a loss here. If anyone has any drills or pointers, please pass along I will get them to him and her.

I thought I was on the right track with the laser G17, because I bought the laser for it and used it to teach our oldest son that he was pushing down shots when he didn't think he was, after it was recommended by another person. It worked for him 2 years ago, obviously not for her. It worked for both of them with the laser on, he shoots well now with no laser, but as I stated, she is hitting low.

kraigwy · April 7, 2010, 01:47 PM

Yeap, sounds like she is stepping into the gun antisipating the recoil.

Dryfiring is the best cure. Better yet, dry firing using a laser sight.

Lavid2002 · April 7, 2010, 01:53 PM

Ever consider sight picture? If she is anticipating the recoil she would do so with the laser too....

Make sure she knows how the iron sights work. If she is hitting low have her hold over a bit.

If it really is the flinching load a magazine with some live rounds mixed with dummy rounds. When she anticipates a dummy round YOU will know...and so will she. This is a VERY good way to train for two reasons.

1) Fixes the flinch
2)Teaches the shooter how to clear a dud quickly. By shooting and having the weapon not discharge you will instinctively rack the slide and go again!

Hewhois · April 7, 2010, 02:04 PM

Plus one on the dry fire exercise. Mix dummy rounds in with live.

Only at the range of course.

And/or, get her a nice easy to shoot and solid .22lr gun to practice on for awhile. Shooting a gun with lots of recoil when learning can "teach" them to anticipate the recoil, not good. A gun with no to very little recoil will help them develop better habits, IMO.

When introducing a friend to shooting firearms, I always have them start off with a .22lr

Puntmefar · April 7, 2010, 02:05 PM

I had the same problem when I started shooting handguns it was simply a matter of me jerking the trigger I was low and to the right. I did dry fire exercise just tell her to aim at a spot on the wall and dry fire repeadly untill she can stay on the spot during trigger pull and take her time. Aslo for me personaly since I was acustom to a scope rather than sights I had a poor sight picture.

Hewhois · April 7, 2010, 02:08 PM

I don't like having new gun users do dry fire exercises anywhere but at the range while pointing the gun at the target. Bad habit to get in to, firing at walls...

DogoDon · April 7, 2010, 03:07 PM

As Lavid2002 noted, it sounds to me like she doesn't have the right sight picture. It could well be that she is focusing on the target, not the front sight. That's one bad thing about lasers -- they teach you to focus on the target. She was able to hit COM with the laser, so that suggests that the issue is not jerking/flinching, but rather the wrong sight picture.

Go back and explain proper sight picture to her and have her try again without the laser.

Just my $.02

DD

1911rocks · April 7, 2010, 03:21 PM

The way I fix this is twofold.
1) +1 on the dummy and live round mix
2) Balance a dime on the front sight and dry fire until the dime doesn't fall

I'm warming up to the lazer somewhat. I also would be interesting in watching her face? I wouldn't be surprised if she close her eye as well. Try ear plugs and attenuators together.

troy_mclure · April 7, 2010, 06:37 PM

the xd uses a different sight picture than the clock. the xd uses a 6' O' clock sight picture, where you put the lined up sights at the bottom where you want to hit.

golfballshootr · April 7, 2010, 08:05 PM

Gents, thanks for the input! She may have been anticipating the shot, I couldn't tell or didn't notice, but she looks to be very steady. I will tell her to practice the dry fire with their kids air soft gun, because I know her husband and he'd have a fit with dry fire of his XD. (That's his opinion though, he knows I do it.)

Will have her use my MKII next time as well to try that.

Didn't know there was a sight picture difference between the two weapons though. I don't shoot the XD, but the other woman who shot his XD, shoots a G19 and 1911 in 38 Super. But of course this lady shoots lots, so she may have been aware of this even though I wasn't.

She was wearing ear protection and I told her to not focus on the target, but on the front sight, but this is her second time to shoot (pistols). The first time she shot was a few days before just one mag full.

And by the way, kraigwy, you are 100% correct on dry firing with the laser, that is what my son was doing and how I was able to get him to see that. Like I said though, got that bit of help then and it helped him out, and didn't even think to have her dry fire with the laser on.

April 7, 2010, 12:45 PM	#1
golfballshootr Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2010 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 185	Pushing down on shots I may need help in the title, but here is the issue; This weekend, we had a gathering of friends and family and another couple that has came before to our get-togethers, but only the husband in this couple shoots. His wife has recently started showing an interest in shooting and she wants to get a CCW permit. So. I'll try to explain in detail to gain help for her, where I and others could not. When she shot his XD, she was shooting 10 yard target and hitting almost every time in bottom half to third of the target. So, I assume she is pushing the weapon down as she fires and get her the only pistol that I have with a laser, Glock 17. She shoots the G17 and mostly COM. So, I tell them her to put a box through it and then see if she has the kinks worked out and go back to the XD. She shoots a full box, doing rather well and makes the swap back to the XD. Once she switched back to the XD, she is now hitting low again every round. Her husband shoots it (the XD), COM, another woman shoots it (the XD), COM. His wife then shoots the G17 with laser not activated and hits low, same as the XD. As it appears that, and I am only guessing here, she is pushing down as she fires, what drill can she do or mechanics can she work on to help her? She was moderately displeased to say the least with her shooting abilities after that and don't want to see her get discouraged. I am at a loss here. If anyone has any drills or pointers, please pass along I will get them to him and her. I thought I was on the right track with the laser G17, because I bought the laser for it and used it to teach our oldest son that he was pushing down shots when he didn't think he was, after it was recommended by another person. It worked for him 2 years ago, obviously not for her. It worked for both of them with the laser on, he shoots well now with no laser, but as I stated, she is hitting low.

April 7, 2010, 01:47 PM	#2
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Yeap, sounds like she is stepping into the gun antisipating the recoil. Dryfiring is the best cure. Better yet, dry firing using a laser sight. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 7, 2010, 01:53 PM	#3
Lavid2002 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2007 Posts: 2,568	Ever consider sight picture? If she is anticipating the recoil she would do so with the laser too.... Make sure she knows how the iron sights work. If she is hitting low have her hold over a bit. If it really is the flinching load a magazine with some live rounds mixed with dummy rounds. When she anticipates a dummy round YOU will know...and so will she. This is a VERY good way to train for two reasons. 1) Fixes the flinch 2)Teaches the shooter how to clear a dud quickly. By shooting and having the weapon not discharge you will instinctively rack the slide and go again! __________________ Math>Grammar

April 7, 2010, 02:05 PM	#5
Puntmefar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2010 Location: Louisville Ky. Posts: 137	I had the same problem when I started shooting handguns it was simply a matter of me jerking the trigger I was low and to the right. I did dry fire exercise just tell her to aim at a spot on the wall and dry fire repeadly untill she can stay on the spot during trigger pull and take her time. Aslo for me personaly since I was acustom to a scope rather than sights I had a poor sight picture. __________________ The most powerfull weapon a person owns is in their own brain

April 7, 2010, 03:21 PM	#8
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	Anticipating recoil The way I fix this is twofold. 1) +1 on the dummy and live round mix 2) Balance a dime on the front sight and dry fire until the dime doesn't fall I'm warming up to the lazer somewhat. I also would be interesting in watching her face? I wouldn't be surprised if she close her eye as well. Try ear plugs and attenuators together.

April 7, 2010, 02:04 PM	#4
Hewhois Member Join Date: April 5, 2010 Posts: 20	Plus one on the dry fire exercise. Mix dummy rounds in with live. Only at the range of course. And/or, get her a nice easy to shoot and solid .22lr gun to practice on for awhile. Shooting a gun with lots of recoil when learning can "teach" them to anticipate the recoil, not good. A gun with no to very little recoil will help them develop better habits, IMO. When introducing a friend to shooting firearms, I always have them start off with a .22lr

April 7, 2010, 02:08 PM	#6
Hewhois Member Join Date: April 5, 2010 Posts: 20	I don't like having new gun users do dry fire exercises anywhere but at the range while pointing the gun at the target. Bad habit to get in to, firing at walls...

April 7, 2010, 03:07 PM	#7
DogoDon Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2010 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 368	As Lavid2002 noted, it sounds to me like she doesn't have the right sight picture. It could well be that she is focusing on the target, not the front sight. That's one bad thing about lasers -- they teach you to focus on the target. She was able to hit COM with the laser, so that suggests that the issue is not jerking/flinching, but rather the wrong sight picture. Go back and explain proper sight picture to her and have her try again without the laser. Just my $.02 DD

April 7, 2010, 06:37 PM	#9
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	the xd uses a different sight picture than the clock. the xd uses a 6' O' clock sight picture, where you put the lined up sights at the bottom where you want to hit. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

April 7, 2010, 08:05 PM	#10
golfballshootr Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2010 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 185	Gents, thanks for the input! She may have been anticipating the shot, I couldn't tell or didn't notice, but she looks to be very steady. I will tell her to practice the dry fire with their kids air soft gun, because I know her husband and he'd have a fit with dry fire of his XD. (That's his opinion though, he knows I do it.) Will have her use my MKII next time as well to try that. Didn't know there was a sight picture difference between the two weapons though. I don't shoot the XD, but the other woman who shot his XD, shoots a G19 and 1911 in 38 Super. But of course this lady shoots lots, so she may have been aware of this even though I wasn't. She was wearing ear protection and I told her to not focus on the target, but on the front sight, but this is her second time to shoot (pistols). The first time she shot was a few days before just one mag full. And by the way, kraigwy, you are 100% correct on dry firing with the laser, that is what my son was doing and how I was able to get him to see that. Like I said though, got that bit of help then and it helped him out, and didn't even think to have her dry fire with the laser on.