What is everbodies take on annealing?

[gunnny12]

From what I have seen on the web some say best thing since sliced bread, others say stay away or will make cases worse if you do.
So what are some opinions on it?
Should be done in water as some suggest or whee the guy actually holds the case in his hand so as not to overheat it.I have noticed that most cases bought new have the annealing already done.

Thanks


Jeff

[skizzums]

i have personally never done it since the brass I shoot is readily available. I have since started reloading 54R and have just received my first ever bag of "virgin" brass. I can tell it has already been annealed, but since I want the best life out of this brass and whatever other 54R I have, I am going to start annealing. I have seen the effects of work-hardened brass after several loading of hot .223's and it does very much make the necks harder=brittle. My take on it is, I will start annealing around my 4th-5th reload, I am going with the pan of water and a torch, with a Tempil marker. From what I have read, no concrete testing has ever shown this to make ammo more accurate, but very ch so helps the life of your (difficult to acquire) brass. I wish I had heard more from people that tried the lead dipping method, that sounds great if it doesn't leave a bunch of muck inside the case mouth.

But what do I know? I am just going by what some so-called professionals blogs.

[mehavey]

Properly done using a temperature indicator and spinning in a deep socket
using a hand drill... NOT by 'color,' NOT by 'feel.' and NOT trying to to dance
a torch around multiple cases in a pan of water...

...it's simple, safe, precise, fast, incredibly effective in preventing neck splits,
and maintains case tension on the bullet.





postscript: Most all commercial cases are annealed when you get them.
However the metal work-hardens over multiple firings and the annealing
must be periodically repeated

[F. Guffey]

So what are some opinions on it?

Nothing is going to change, as you can see you have two responses and Mehavey has already turned snarky. It is always about the tools, to get into annealing reloaders believe it is about 'the tool', I always say "THINK, we all know that does not work because.

F. Guffey

[jwrowland77]

I anneal my match brass after every firing.

I use two torches so it gets all sides equally and at same time and also use Tempilaq paint to make sure it gets done long enough but not too long.

[mehavey]

Thank you Guffy
It was, in fact, my intent to be succinctly
direct... military point-paper style.

Would you like to point out out which of
the NOT statements was incorrect.?

[F. Guffey]

Thank you Guffy

I do not get many of those, do not think for a moment I do not know how to appreciate the "Thank you Guffy", you are welcome.

F. Guffey

[mehavey]

(Honest)

[243winxb]

Thats our Guffey. Annealing needs to be done correctly, or brass gets the zinc burn out of it, making it scrap.

[T. O'Heir]

"...anneal my match brass after every firing..." That's unnecessary. Only needs doing when you get one cracked neck.
Doesn't need expensive equipment either. A pan of tap water and a propane torch will do. No red hot brass either. Heat only until the brass changes colour then tip.
All commercial cases have been annealed when you get them. Annealed after forming then polished.
Anyway, who ever told you it would damage your brass is very confused. Mind you, if you heat brass to red hot, will damage it.

[jwrowland77]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"...anneal my match brass after every firing..." That's unnecessary. Only needs doing when you get one cracked neck.

Doesn't need expensive equipment either. A pan of tap water and a propane torch will do. No red hot brass either. Heat only until the brass changes colour then tip.

All commercial cases have been annealed when you get them. Annealed after forming then polished.

Anyway, who ever told you it would damage your brass is very confused. Mind you, if you heat brass to red hot, will damage it.

I realize that, but I keep them nice and consistent. I enjoy it, and it gives me confidence. Confidence goes a long way shooting comp.

[wogpotter]

It will vary a little depending on the case design. Some benefit from it more than others.

What can go right?
Extended life in the neck & shoulder area.

What can go wrong?
Uneven heating.
Heating to the wrong temp.
Heating too far back along the case body.

How often to do it?
Every 3~4 resizings, depending on case design.

Here's my cheap solution.

Cordless screwdriver (way better than trying to keep an electric drill running at a consistent low speed.).

Chuck adapter for same (about $25 from Lowes or Home Despot).
Deep well socket of the correct size to hold, but not grasp the case while holding it to the depth you want.

Bolt, nut washers Etc to build the tool (see pic).
(The "heat sink" is just washers & fender washers. Its not really needed for heat sinking, but to take up the excess shaft length of the bolt's un-threaded portion.)

Heat marker crayon, I have 2, a 650 or the neck & a 450 for use behind the shoulder.
(It varies depending on case configuration where it works best)

A propane torch.

Plumbing fixings:

A 3" X 45 degree "T" fitting.
A 3 1/2" wall flange.

A scrap wood base.

A heat proof "catcher bowl".

Screws,glue & rubber feet as needed.

(all images (C) WogPotter 2014)






How to use it:
light the torch at the lowest setting you can maintain. drop the case into the socket/screwdriver tool. Press &hold the "GO" button. Lower the rotating case into the flame so the brush just contacts the shoulder & flows over the entire neck/shoulder area. Immediately bring the temp crayon into light contact with the area you've decided to use for temp check. Immediately the crayons starts to melt, remove from flame & tilt down to drop case in bowl of water.
Repeat for 3~5 cases.
Use the average time (4~6 seconds depending on case/flame) for the rest of the batch.

Why water? Almost nothing to do with the annealing, but it keeps the cats from getting burnt noses checking me out & keeps me from burnt fingers picking up a metal container with multiple hot cases in it.

[4runnerman]

I anneal my 6BR every 4th load. I have cases going on 28 reloads now.
And before I get hit- No case head seperations either other then when I set my headspace wrong here about a month ago. I swear by it. It is easy to do and does make a difference not only in brass life but more important-Neck tension.

[jdscholer]

I've been loading for over 40 years now and never done it. I now own a 22 BR and am going to start, at least for it. I'm interested in the molten lead technique since I cast bullets. Seems like it would provide a very even heat, with known temp. jd

[Metal god]

mehavey's first post is perfect IMO and wogpotter has a nice set up that seems to work well . I've done some testing and have all kinds of notes and pics of the process . I just don't want to write all I've learned in another thread .

I say 750* inside the neck or 450* just below the shoulder



I recommend the 450* below the shoulder because it's easier to clean off . Cleaning inside the neck is a real pain but can be done with a Q-tip and acetone . The pic above has all the cases marked with both . In general ignore that because those where cases I was testing to be sure both temps would melt at the same time .

The pic is to show the two different locations to apply . You don't need every case marked either . Once you get the timing down you only need it on every 10th case or so to be sure you keep your timing .

I'll now show why the look of any part of annealing means very little

All three of these cases were annealed to the exact same temp . Difference was where the flame was applied the the case



So heating till you get those nice anneal marks means nothing . It's all about the temperature the case reaches as to if it's annealed .

These next pics show the flame on the cases right at the moment the two temp indicators melted .





Two important factors here . First none of the cases got RED hot , if the neck gets red hot throw it out . Second all three flames look very different at the point the cases reached the correct temp . The first pic is a propane torch turned down kinda low while heating the neck and shoulder . the second pic is propane as well but with a much higher & hotter flame . The third pic is a torch using MAPP gas . This gas burns much hotter then propane . As a result you get the much bigger yellow/orange flame .

OK I'm going to stop there cus I could go on and on about this . If you have any specific questions feel free to ask .

[4runnerman]

Wogpotter- Thanks for the Pic of your set up. As simple as it seems I would never have thought of a holder like that. Will be making one today. I will have to get 2 of them as I use 2 torches.

[wogpotter]

I just found it much easier with the torch nozzle closer to horizontal. I don't use 2 torches as I've found as long as the case is already turning as you insert it one does the job perfectly. For 2 I'd use a longer plank & have the flames both "facing each other" for the best effect.
I actually angle the flame slightly towards the mouth from the neck. I used to use a "flame spreader" on the old torch & the flame's increased width covered the entire neck & shoulder, but they don't seem available any more so the flame has to be angled slightly to get enough immersion.
I don't use MAPP because IMO its too fast. In reality I'm thinking of choking the propane flames O2 a little to drop the core temp & add a second or two to the time.

[Metal god]

I don't use MAPP because IMO its too fast

I agree and although it can work , It's just to hot to fast . I'm not a metallurgist but my understanding is . The very hot flame heats the outside of the case faster then the inside .

Here's where I'm not 100% . I believe the orange flame is present when you start to burn off the zinc in the brass or the zinc heats faster then the copper resulting in the orange flame . Zinc melts at about 787* and you are annealing the cases to 700* to 750* . I don't know for sure but that would seem to be one of the reasons why over heating ruins the cases .

I found it very hard to control how hot I got each case using MAPP gas even when using the temp indicator . By the time my eyes saw the indicator melt , my brain told my hands to remove the case from the heat and my hands actually remove the case . I had a big orange flame starting .

Now they never got red hot or even likely close to being ruined using MAPP gas . I just found propane much easier to control . If you had to , MAPP would work but it's not what I'd recommend to use .

[wogpotter]

That's another reason I use the 450 on the body.
If you test run in subdued light you'll see it melts just exactly as the flame color has that first subtle change & the brass gets "frosty" for just a second.

[jmorris]

This is a video of how I do it.

[DaleA]

Dang this is a helpful forum!

Good pictures and a video to show what's going on.

Thanks all!

[bedlamite]

I built one with a cake pan and ebay motors similar to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e862MYQUj-Q

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...eX0/edit?pli=1

Always use Tempilaq, and adjust the speed and flame to get it right.