Frangible rounds.

Hog Hunter · June 1, 2011, 10:40 PM

Is frangible ammo just for target shootin, or can it be used for SD? I mean im know it can but how Would it perform? I have always been scared of something going down in a gas station or public place and there being innocent by standards in the store getting hit with a pass through round. I know you should always know whats beyond your intended target but I think when put in that situation most ppl would just react and try to eliminate the target. I carry a 38 special everyday and im pretty sure that most of the time a belly shot or similar where the round dont hit a hard internal, its going to pass through.
I know the caliber carried can have alot to do with it but I really like my little airweight for everyday carry and dont plan on changing my carry gun.
So, im not to familiar with this frangible round. How well do you guys think it would perform on human flesh or is it just for shootin steel?? WHat would be the best round for what im lookin for?? Right now im shootin winchester xp's.

WESHOOT2 · June 2, 2011, 06:44 AM

Some frangible is designed to disintegrate at impact.
Some is designed for people-shooting, offering reduced penetration.

Neither, IMNSHO, is appropriate for people-shooting.

Stick with your Winchesters.

Noreaster · June 3, 2011, 11:22 PM

frangible is like a solid point bullet, not made to expand. Not a great choice for SD. I've shot frangible at rocks and windshields and they turn to dust with no penetration. I've shot frangible through doors and wooden pallets with results similar to fmj. Generally speaking you need a hard surface like metal or glass to break up the round, it goes right through wood. Not sure about bones. I know a guy who took a deer with a 357 sig frangible.

Mercenary · June 4, 2011, 07:11 PM

I read an article a few months ago talking about police officers using frangible rounds because they were designed to completely fragment upon impact, thus reducing the probability of overpenetration. It also stated that by the round completely fragmenting that more energy would be released on the target than that of hollow points or FMJ rounds. Since reading that article, I have been on the lookout for frangible rounds myself for SD.

kinoons · June 4, 2011, 11:27 PM

Frangible rounds are a poor choice as they do not penetrate deeply enough to ensure reaching vital organs. The notion that they would dump more energy into an attacker than a quality HP round is disingenuous at best, and downright wrong at worse. Until a HP creates an exit would the energy transfer is the same. Since most hallowpoints do not exit, the same amount of energy is dumped into the target.

8shot357 · June 5, 2011, 12:36 AM

I read on the Internet that they don't work. So it must be true. I heard they just bounce of people, and just make them mad.

All I can say is, they are very light fast bullets out of a standard pressured shell.

All I can say is, whoever made any comments on these should back it up.

HK Jake · June 5, 2011, 01:17 AM

"RRLP ammunition may be of benefit for personnel conducting VBSS, GOPLAT, and in extremis missions in maritime environments or industrial settings with hazardous materials. Likewise, the use of frangible training ammunition is an important safety consideration for close range exercises using reactive steel targets. On the other hand, frangible training ammunition is NEVER a good choice for duty/self-defense use! Anyone recommending frangible training ammunition for duty/self-defense purposes is grossly misinformed or is ignorantly repeating specious gunrag myth and should be disregarded as a source of valid information…"

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57072

BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

Sharpsdressed Man · June 5, 2011, 12:57 PM

Has there been ANY bona fide forensic reports of frangible ammo use and results in self defense or police related shootings? If not, what are we basing the neagatives on?

Webleymkv · June 5, 2011, 02:05 PM

The are different types of frangible ammunition: that made for reduced riccochet risk for training and that marketed specifically for self-defense. Self-defense marketed frangibles are characterized by Glaser, MagSafe, and Extreme Shock. In my opinion, frangible ammunition is a poor choice for self-defense outside of certain very specific circumstances (i.e. an air marshall using a handgun inside of a commercial jet).

The problem with frangible ammo is that it typically penetrates substantially less than premium JHP ammo does. Modern premium JHP ammo is designed to penetrate to a certain depth (usually the FBI standard of 12-16") and most of it works as designed. While that depth of penetration may seem excessive on its face, it has become industry standard because it is accounting for very large attackers, shots at oblique angles, and shots through extremities or intermediate barriers. While the wounds inflicted by frangible ammunition are quite gruesome looking and undobtedly extremely painful, they may not reliably reach the vital organs of an attacker and as such cannot be relied up to quickly incapacitate a large individual, an particularly determined individual, or an individual under the influence of mind-altering chemicals.

The other issue with frangible ammo is that it's usually quite expensive. Last I looked, a package of Glaser or Magsafe ammo is roughly the same price as a box of premium JHP but usually comes in a package of 10 cartridges or less. The cost of shooting enough frangible ammo to ensure reliability, verify point of impact, and adjust sights as necessary would be prohibitively expensive for most people. Regardless of its performance, no ammo is going to do you any good if it doesn't work in your gun and/or you can't hit your target.

As far as overpenetration is concerned, while it is not an issue to be completely ignored, it's not as big a deal as some make it out to be. According to the FBI report that came out when that agency adopted the 10mm cartridge in the early 90's, overpenetration is a phenomenon that was largely exaggerated by law enforcement in order to justify the use of politically-incorrect JHP ammunition. Personally, I'm much more worried about underpenetration than I am about overpenetration. By choosing when, where, and at what angle I choose to shoot, I can go a long way towards mitigating the risk of overpenetration. It is much easier to take a step to the side or to take a kneeling or prone position prior to pulling the trigger than it is to switch your ammunition in the middle of a fight. I have at least some control over the angle of my shot, but I have no control whatsoever over the size, temperment, position, or chemical use of my opponent.

Deja vu · June 5, 2011, 05:33 PM

I have shot water melon with it. They do work well but I still would take a SJHP.

Hog Hunter · June 5, 2011, 05:47 PM

So basically its just for target shootin then.Thanks for the info. Like I said I have no experiance with it so I thought id ask

madmag · June 5, 2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hog Hunter

So basically its just for target shooting then.

No, not unless you really have lots of money to burn. Also, they have a different POI than normal rounds, at least in my experience.

So, since they are expensive, shoot to a different POI, and don't always perform as advertised, then they are about useless....my opinion of course.

Lots of good .38 spl rounds. My favorite is Remington Express 158g +P LHP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hog Hunter

I have always been scared of something going down in a gas station or public place and there being innocent by standards in the store getting hit with a pass through round.

Shooting in public places can be a dangerous business. Good training and confidence in yourself can keep the odds in favor of only the bad guys getting hit.

orionengnr · June 5, 2011, 09:33 PM

Read post #9.
The Glaser/MagSafe/etc is marketed as SD ammo, and is quite pricey--$20/$25 per six rounds. Their penetration is minimal, and their effectiveness is questionable at best.

Some other "frangible" rounds are just a compound designed to vaporize on impact, and are only good for target use.

Quote:

and there being innocent by standards

Wow.

Bottom line--use a good quality JHP for SD.

8shot357 · June 6, 2011, 02:00 AM

I believe everything I read.

HK Jake · June 6, 2011, 02:24 AM

Quote:

I believe everything I read.

Is this all you do?

Sure, most so-called "information" on the internet is actually misinformation, but we've known for a long time that frangible ammunition sucks for self defense.

FWIW, you aren't going to find many reputable, if any..., cases of frangible ammunition being used in SD.

MikeNice81 · June 6, 2011, 02:32 AM

Merc, MMA fighters routinely hit each other with 900+lbs of force. That doesn't stop the other guy from fighting. They keep coming. 450 pounds of force from a +p .45acp is not going to put a guy out of a fight. With a bullet it is about transfering that energy in to the CNS or vital organs. That requires penetration. I rather use FMJ than frangible. I prefer HPs over both. Bigger hole plus penetration.

Bartholomew Roberts · June 6, 2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

In my opinion, frangible ammunition is a poor choice for self-defense outside of certain very specific circumstances (i.e. an air marshall using a handgun inside of a commercial jet).

And actually, last time I read about it, even the Air Marshalls were using 125gr Speer Gold Dot JHP - because even in a plane full of people and critical mechanical equipment, they felt that was the best choice.

madmag · June 6, 2011, 10:08 AM

Not sure if this fits with the frangible ammo question, but I think it's worth mentioning.

I do use Hornady Critical Defense ammo. CD ammo has a polymer filler in the HP cavity to prevent being filled with material and this delays expansion until needed.

From my personal testing, and reading, this ammo does exactly as advertised. You get reliable expansion but it does not penetrate some hard barriers as well as normal HP or ball ammo. Also, it shoots and hits POI just like any other ammo. And the price is not more than other premium HP ammo.

I also find the shape (nose) of the CD ammo really enhances feeding in semi's.

Agreed, anything Speer Gold Dot is also very good. That's my other go to ammo.

8shot357 · June 6, 2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Is this all you do?

Sure, most so-called "information" on the internet is actually misinformation, but we've known for a long time that frangible ammunition sucks for self defense.

FWIW, you aren't going to find many reputable, if any..., cases of frangible ammunition being used in SD.

It's all theory man! Speculation at best! Who really knows? Enough said. Who really cares? If that's all I had, I'd sleep like a baby not worrying about it. Do you feel lucky, well... do you?

Don Glock · June 6, 2011, 04:47 PM

frangible rounds are poor performers in ever test that's been done.

either they don't fragment and perform like a fmj bullet, or they do fragment and penetrate less than 9 inches.

don't waste your money on these.

8shot357 · June 10, 2011, 02:42 AM

Quote:

frangible rounds are poor performers in ever test that's been done.

We should just take that statement as if it holds water? Performence against what?

Quote:

either they don't fragment and perform like a fmj bullet, or they do fragment and penetrate less than 9 inches.

Is that such a bad thing? They hold up being shot out of a Semi auto!

Quote:

don't waste your money on these.

I don't know. I'm just wondering if your statement holds total truth, and you can be back it up (I read, I read, I read?).

Don Glock · June 10, 2011, 03:00 AM

^^are you new to guns, or the internet?

there's this website called google. use it.

mete · June 10, 2011, 03:34 AM

Frangible means fragile .I don't want to use anything fragile if I have to deal with a BG ! Use JHPs that's what they're designed for .

Bartholomew Roberts · June 10, 2011, 07:27 AM

Quote:

We should just take that statement as if it holds water? Performence against what?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=glaser

June 1, 2011, 10:40 PM	#1
Hog Hunter Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 386	Frangible rounds. Is frangible ammo just for target shootin, or can it be used for SD? I mean im know it can but how Would it perform? I have always been scared of something going down in a gas station or public place and there being innocent by standards in the store getting hit with a pass through round. I know you should always know whats beyond your intended target but I think when put in that situation most ppl would just react and try to eliminate the target. I carry a 38 special everyday and im pretty sure that most of the time a belly shot or similar where the round dont hit a hard internal, its going to pass through. I know the caliber carried can have alot to do with it but I really like my little airweight for everyday carry and dont plan on changing my carry gun. So, im not to familiar with this frangible round. How well do you guys think it would perform on human flesh or is it just for shootin steel?? WHat would be the best round for what im lookin for?? Right now im shootin winchester xp's.

June 2, 2011, 06:44 AM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	now you see me, now you don't Some frangible is designed to disintegrate at impact. Some is designed for people-shooting, offering reduced penetration. Neither, IMNSHO, is appropriate for people-shooting. Stick with your Winchesters. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

June 4, 2011, 07:11 PM	#4
Mercenary Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2011 Location: NC Posts: 311	I read an article a few months ago talking about police officers using frangible rounds because they were designed to completely fragment upon impact, thus reducing the probability of overpenetration. It also stated that by the round completely fragmenting that more energy would be released on the target than that of hollow points or FMJ rounds. Since reading that article, I have been on the lookout for frangible rounds myself for SD. __________________ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson

June 5, 2011, 12:36 AM	#6
8shot357 Junior member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 1,740	I read on the Internet that they don't work. So it must be true. I heard they just bounce of people, and just make them mad. All I can say is, they are very light fast bullets out of a standard pressured shell. All I can say is, whoever made any comments on these should back it up. Last edited by 8shot357; June 5, 2011 at 04:23 PM.

June 5, 2011, 05:33 PM	#10
Deja vu Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Border of Idaho & Montana Posts: 2,584	I have shot water melon with it. They do work well but I still would take a SJHP. __________________ Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull. all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...

June 3, 2011, 11:22 PM	#3
Noreaster Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: New England Posts: 1,449	frangible is like a solid point bullet, not made to expand. Not a great choice for SD. I've shot frangible at rocks and windshields and they turn to dust with no penetration. I've shot frangible through doors and wooden pallets with results similar to fmj. Generally speaking you need a hard surface like metal or glass to break up the round, it goes right through wood. Not sure about bones. I know a guy who took a deer with a 357 sig frangible.

June 4, 2011, 11:27 PM	#5
kinoons Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2008 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 409	Frangible rounds are a poor choice as they do not penetrate deeply enough to ensure reaching vital organs. The notion that they would dump more energy into an attacker than a quality HP round is disingenuous at best, and downright wrong at worse. Until a HP creates an exit would the energy transfer is the same. Since most hallowpoints do not exit, the same amount of energy is dumped into the target.

June 5, 2011, 01:17 AM	#7
HK Jake Junior member Join Date: May 23, 2011 Posts: 51	"RRLP ammunition may be of benefit for personnel conducting VBSS, GOPLAT, and in extremis missions in maritime environments or industrial settings with hazardous materials. Likewise, the use of frangible training ammunition is an important safety consideration for close range exercises using reactive steel targets. On the other hand, frangible training ammunition is NEVER a good choice for duty/self-defense use! Anyone recommending frangible training ammunition for duty/self-defense purposes is grossly misinformed or is ignorantly repeating specious gunrag myth and should be disregarded as a source of valid information…" http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57072 BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

June 5, 2011, 12:57 PM	#8
Sharpsdressed Man Junior member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 1,176	Has there been ANY bona fide forensic reports of frangible ammo use and results in self defense or police related shootings? If not, what are we basing the neagatives on?

June 5, 2011, 02:05 PM	#9
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	The are different types of frangible ammunition: that made for reduced riccochet risk for training and that marketed specifically for self-defense. Self-defense marketed frangibles are characterized by Glaser, MagSafe, and Extreme Shock. In my opinion, frangible ammunition is a poor choice for self-defense outside of certain very specific circumstances (i.e. an air marshall using a handgun inside of a commercial jet). The problem with frangible ammo is that it typically penetrates substantially less than premium JHP ammo does. Modern premium JHP ammo is designed to penetrate to a certain depth (usually the FBI standard of 12-16") and most of it works as designed. While that depth of penetration may seem excessive on its face, it has become industry standard because it is accounting for very large attackers, shots at oblique angles, and shots through extremities or intermediate barriers. While the wounds inflicted by frangible ammunition are quite gruesome looking and undobtedly extremely painful, they may not reliably reach the vital organs of an attacker and as such cannot be relied up to quickly incapacitate a large individual, an particularly determined individual, or an individual under the influence of mind-altering chemicals. The other issue with frangible ammo is that it's usually quite expensive. Last I looked, a package of Glaser or Magsafe ammo is roughly the same price as a box of premium JHP but usually comes in a package of 10 cartridges or less. The cost of shooting enough frangible ammo to ensure reliability, verify point of impact, and adjust sights as necessary would be prohibitively expensive for most people. Regardless of its performance, no ammo is going to do you any good if it doesn't work in your gun and/or you can't hit your target. As far as overpenetration is concerned, while it is not an issue to be completely ignored, it's not as big a deal as some make it out to be. According to the FBI report that came out when that agency adopted the 10mm cartridge in the early 90's, overpenetration is a phenomenon that was largely exaggerated by law enforcement in order to justify the use of politically-incorrect JHP ammunition. Personally, I'm much more worried about underpenetration than I am about overpenetration. By choosing when, where, and at what angle I choose to shoot, I can go a long way towards mitigating the risk of overpenetration. It is much easier to take a step to the side or to take a kneeling or prone position prior to pulling the trigger than it is to switch your ammunition in the middle of a fight. I have at least some control over the angle of my shot, but I have no control whatsoever over the size, temperment, position, or chemical use of my opponent. Last edited by Webleymkv; June 5, 2011 at 02:07 PM. Reason: spelling

June 5, 2011, 05:47 PM	#11
Hog Hunter Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 386	So basically its just for target shootin then.Thanks for the info. Like I said I have no experiance with it so I thought id ask

June 6, 2011, 02:00 AM	#14
8shot357 Junior member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Posts: 1,740	I believe everything I read.

June 6, 2011, 02:32 AM	#16
MikeNice81 Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2010 Posts: 579	Merc, MMA fighters routinely hit each other with 900+lbs of force. That doesn't stop the other guy from fighting. They keep coming. 450 pounds of force from a +p .45acp is not going to put a guy out of a fight. With a bullet it is about transfering that energy in to the CNS or vital organs. That requires penetration. I rather use FMJ than frangible. I prefer HPs over both. Bigger hole plus penetration. __________________ Here's my credo: There are no good guns, There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people. Charlton Heston

June 6, 2011, 10:08 AM	#18
madmag Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2007 Location: The South Posts: 4,239	Not sure if this fits with the frangible ammo question, but I think it's worth mentioning. I do use Hornady Critical Defense ammo. CD ammo has a polymer filler in the HP cavity to prevent being filled with material and this delays expansion until needed. From my personal testing, and reading, this ammo does exactly as advertised. You get reliable expansion but it does not penetrate some hard barriers as well as normal HP or ball ammo. Also, it shoots and hits POI just like any other ammo. And the price is not more than other premium HP ammo. I also find the shape (nose) of the CD ammo really enhances feeding in semi's. Agreed, anything Speer Gold Dot is also very good. That's my other go to ammo.

June 6, 2011, 04:47 PM	#20
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	frangible rounds are poor performers in ever test that's been done. either they don't fragment and perform like a fmj bullet, or they do fragment and penetrate less than 9 inches. don't waste your money on these.

June 10, 2011, 03:00 AM	#22
Don Glock Junior member Join Date: September 16, 2010 Posts: 1,141	^^are you new to guns, or the internet? there's this website called google. use it.

June 10, 2011, 03:34 AM	#23
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Frangible means fragile .I don't want to use anything fragile if I have to deal with a BG ! Use JHPs that's what they're designed for . __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !