This may be controversial but...

[invention_45]

yomama:

Secular life does not give ME the opposite message. There's a very clear difference between "kill" and "murder" that is reflected in common-sense thinking and even in the law.

To kill is to stop from living. It has nothing to do with the motive of the killer.

To murder is to kill with the intent to do so (first degree) or to act in a knowably deadly way resulting in the death of another (second degree). Both of these are construed to be the knowing killing of another.

Note that, at least in Florida, killing can be lawful. Murder, by definition, can't.

While I was looking at the Florida Statutes regarding murder, I stumbled on this tidbit:

"782.02 Justifiable use of deadly force.--The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be. "

First, I thought it had to be a "forcible felony". Nope, just "any felony".

Aside from what the law says, I reserve the right to stop you any way I can if you are trying to kill me. That's not religious at all. Luckily, the law seems to agree with my take on it.

[robmkivseries70]

Hi All,
My wife, an elementary teacher, is reading a book titled "Ghosts from the Nursery". The book speaks to the type of care that babies and young children get or don't get and how it affects their future. Case in point, there is a 10 year old boy she knows about, that under went severe abuse as a little one, who is now showing signs of self destructive behavior, threats to harm others and animal cruelty. Hopefully he will get the help he needs though it now may be too late.
Thanks,
Rob

[Edward429451]

BAM! Yomama nailed it.

What kind of dingbat would want to kill anyhoo? Wanting too and willing to is different as was noted. They would have to force me to shoot. To stop, not to kill. If they do die...that was their risk by forcing the situation. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

That particular question should be answered for onesself before one straps on a gun. If you have any doubt, put the gun down or keep it for recreation.

I've never shot anyone, but I've been sooo close that I've answered the question of "could I"? Thank God I didn't have to. Afterwards, I was shakin like a leaf from the adreneline but during the incident I was focused and calm. Sounds weird maybe but truth is stranger than fiction.

(OT but relevant...You gotta admire the way Peter cut that dudes ear off when they came for Jesus. No hesitation, just bam. Of course that wasn't what Jesus was here for that time but Peter was on top of the situation and focused.)

[shield20]

Is there anyone here who thinks they will have remorse for taking a life after being in a life & death struggle with a BG and coming out on top (i.e. alive) only by killing him 1st?

[Edward429451]

Hale yeah. I would expect it. Who could feel proud for killing someone? Maybe proud for saving someone and yet feel like crap for having to kill someone to do it.

[Wyo Cowboy]

Knowing that you saved a life and did the right thing doesn't necessarily mean that you won't feel something about the life that you were forced to take. Not everyone will feel remorse, but some will. There is nothing wrong with feeling bad that a life had to end. There IS something wrong in feeling so bad that you might have to take the life of a BG that your, or a loved one's life is the one taken instead.

[Pointer]

Shield

Is there anyone here who thinks they will have remorse

I think I will second guess myself and question the correctness of my actions... NO, I won't feel remorse... just doubt...

Mack

I know and have known people who have bought guns for many reasons other than self-defense and who only as a second thought - add or say - of course I'd use it to protect myself and my family. Some of those individuals have not seriously confronted or answered the question - Am I willing to kill

I can't argue that...
My mindset was on the ones who are CWP holders and who bought their gun for that purpose.

I know some people who have bought guns for self-defense who actually believe that if they show the gun it is enough and they don't keep it loaded

I think that's just too sweet!

I'd just wound them if I had to.

Sweeter still... and they must be very good shooters under pressure!
I've seen LEOs empty their guns and hit nothing...

Are they stupid or unthinking or are they just in denial? Are they not really confronting and trying to answer the question because they don't want to deal with it?

Yes.

...and planning don't amount to a hill of beans if one cannot answer yes to the question, am I willing to kill another human being

I AM willing to kill... I have no idea if I WILL BE when the time comes... :barf:

instead of concentrating on hitting the target we will concentrate our focus on our feelings

I once got 28 X's out of 30 possible... and lost the match... because I "concentrated" on the job at hand TOO MUCH and failed to release the trigger so it could reset for the next shot...

My greatest gun/defense fear is that that might happen again when I am in the greatest need of my faculties.

I am a very accurate shooter... but I wonder if I am a deadly shooter...

[riverkeeper]

I have LtCol Dave Grossman's book -- On Killing, but haven't started it yet.

According to the research about 20% of WW2 soldiers actually shot to kill the enemy, more than double that in Korea and by VietNam over 90%.

After WW2 the military recognized this and during training successfully used conditioning techniques to increase the 'participation rate'.

According to the book jacket modern civilian society and especially the media have conditioned us so that we (in general) are now more willing to go to the gun.

Grossman was a US Army Ranger, paratrooper, taught psychology at West Point and currently a professor of military science.

Personnaly I hope to only have remorse if I make a major mistake....Self doubt as Pointer said is almost unavoidable.

[James K]

Wyo. Cowboy says:

"Not everyone will feel remorse, but some will."

I say:

"In today's society, those who don't better damned well fake it."

Jim

[WhyteP38]

I say:

"In today's society, those who don't better damned well fake it."

+1. And if you can't fake it, apologize. That seems to work for convicted killers in California.

[joneb]

Invention 45 what do you think our laws are based on
Yomama , your point is at the root of this thread, if Able had defended himself against Cain's ambush, resulting in Cain's demise there would have been no fowl.
If some have a unclear view between right and wrong, that could cause some hesitation, or lack of action. Granted a speedy decision will help in a favorable out come and perhaps this brings us back to those new phrases like "mindset, training and situational awarness".
My favorite Clint Eastwood movie is the " Unforgiven " thoe prehaps not applicable here it offers insight into taking a life, mind set, and situational awarness.

Like Wyatt said " Be slow but in a hurry "

I guess what I'm trying to add here is , be sure of your self and trust your instinct, then do what needs to be done.

[GLOCK21]

If you are forced to kill even in a combat situation you will never be the same. Certain stimuli will cause you to relive the situation over and over. You will have nightmares for the rest of your life. Not every day or even every month, but you will. The military doesn't even prepare you for this. Killing is serious business that has unreversable conciquences. You will think about their family, and god forbid you search them for intell and find a family picture or a picture of their children. The trauma may not show up for months until after the shock of what has happened leaves. Do some research on PTSD to find more than I can share from my experiance.

[scaryFORDman]

This is the way I see this issue........ I am new to CCW, have NEVER pulled my firearm in defense of myself, family or anyone with me.
In this day and age, the most important thing to do while out in society is to stay ALERT. Keep your head on and use it in a cool fashion.
My reasoning for carrying a firearm is this...........Nobody is going to rob me of my hard -earned money, or take one of my kids or wife. If someone attempts to kidnap one of my loved ones, harm them in any way, or rob me of my $$$, they will be met with deadly force. I will FORCE them to consider the fact that they stand the chance of catching a bullet from my weapon IF they continue to do what they sought out to do. I fully understand that I stand they same chance of catching one myself, but the alternative is something that is NOT an option. If I DON'T defend myself/loved ones, there is a GREATER chance that myself or my loved ones will lose their life.
I don't think it is a stretch to say that 95% of BG's will cease and desist when met with deadly force from their potential victim. Most will prey on someone that either won't or CAN'T defend themselves.
If ever put in this situation, I think the best way to attempt to end it , is to give them an option to walk away with NO shots being fired. I think most would choose to exit the situation. If NOT, it's ON.

[FallsGuy]

I'm a new member here, but have been reading for a long time. I appreciate all the great info that I have found. My CCW instructor always said (in Ohio) that if there is a possibility to retreat and run - you have to take it. I don't like the idea of shooting a BG, but I will if I have to. Killing is surely never a pleasant affair, but... if push comes to shove... BANG! Or probably BANG-BANG!

[XavierBreath]

Mack,
I have not read every post here, and am responding to your initial post.
You are correct. At times, the willingness to kill is vital to a person's survival. Many CCW holders do not realize how vital it can be.
It is the difference between Perry Stephens and Brendan McKown. It can be the difference between living and dying.

[Dwight55]

Fallsguy said: "My CCW instructor always said (in Ohio) that if there is a possibility to retreat and run - you have to take it."

While that is good practical advice for most situations, . . . and if there is any reasonable way out of a shooting situation, . . . that reasonable way should most definitely be taken.

BUT to advertise that as being iron clad: THOU SHALT RUN IF THEE CAN, . . . that is a crock and the instructor did not do anyone any favor in stating it that way. That only confuses people and gives them a false understanding of the intent of the law.

According to his information if the Tacoma mall shooting ocurred at a mall in Ohio, . . . everyone has to hide in Starbucks or Penney's, . . . and the Ohio law was just simply not written that way.

I do not have a duty to run from a situation where I am confronted with deadly or felony force being waged against me or anyone near me. I and all other Ohio CHL holders may elect to run like the devil, . . . or we may elect to pull our weapon and engage the bg. There is no DUTY to retreat, . . . and if the instructor said it that way, . . . he needs to get another job.

May God bless,
Dwight

[bermo61]

I think anyone who is willing to pick up a gun for self defense has already come to terms with the fact that under certain circumstances they are willing to use deadly force...if not, don't have a gun. A criminal will be able to tell you are bluffing and probably just take it away from you and kill you with it.

Know your laws and when you can and cannot shoot and practice as realistically as you can...from the draw, prone, on your back, while moving, weak hand..and while you are breathing heavy. And then play some paintball...its a wonderful thing to know how adrenaline effects your aim before you are in a life or death situation.

[OBIWAN]

You are not justified in firing unless you are justified in killing the person...only in New York does anyone think shooting to wound makes any sense

However....the difference between "stopping" and "killing" and it is not just some gun writers game...though there is good reason to be skeptical of anything a gun writer says

The difference is the part that can keep you out of prison

For instance....shooting someone to the ground...whether they live or die is justified.

Walking up and putting a last shot in their head....just to make sure.......

Becomes murder

[12-34hom]

Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.

+1

12-34hom.

[Dennis2]

Based on your post you have never served in the military, am I correct? Are you thinking Charles Bronson and "Death Wish" movies or something?

[gdeal]

It is within our ablility as humans to kill but it is not our nature. The U.S. Army after WWII started using human silouettes for targets to desensitize the troops because it is not natural to shoot at another human being. Perhaps that means I wouldn't do that well. I don't like using human sillouettes at the range. I like using bull's eye targets. On the other hand maybe I would be able to place a shot at somebody's knee cap or wrist instead of their chest. I don't carry right now anyway. But I still want to be a good marksman if that event ever did come upon me as I hope it never does.

[stephen426]

I know this is one of those things that you don't know how you will react until you are in that actual situation. I hope I don't come off as a psychopath or a mall ninja, but I really don't think it would be that hard to kill someone that is trying to kill me or my family.

While mindset is important, I feel that reaction, based on training and practice will allow you to shoot someone. With proper training and practice, you identify a threat, you draw your weapon and address the threat, and then you end the threat. If someone has a weapon and an equal chance of shooting you, there is no time for hesitation as that will get you killed.

Now if you are in a situation where the bad guy does not have a gun, I can see some hesitation before shooting. There must still be a threat of death or severe bodily harm before drawing your weapon in the first place. This means that the bad guy is physically able to kill or severely injure you. Many people underestimate the effectiveness of a contact weapon and/or over estimate the effectiveness of a handgun to immediately stop a threat. Upon drawing on the threat, the bad guy must stop all hostilities and either flee or assume the "position". Any failure to immediately stop hostilities should cause you to shoot the bad guy.

I think it basically comes down to muscle memory, training, and practice. When a there is a serious threat, you address it as you would on a B-27 target and shoot until the threat is neutralized. I'm sure if you have any conscience at all, it will hit you sooner or later, but train well and be prepared to act.

[mack59]

Dennis2 wrote:

"Mack59 you scare me: Based on your post you have never served in the military, am I correct? Are you thinking Charles Bronson and "Death Wish" movies or something?"


I'm not really sure where you are getting or coming from with this whole - you scare me, Charles Bronson - Death Wish thing.

I would very much prefer to never use a firearm against another living soul. However, God forbid, that someday I or someone else should find it necessary to use a firearm in self-defense - it might be a good thing to be prepared mentally and emotionally to do so. There is a big difference as has been pointed out between being willing to kill if necessary to save life and wanting to kill. No one in their right mind wants to kill another person. But one can be in their right mind and be willing to kill another person should it come to that. Using lethal force in self-defense is always in my mind the last option.

I hope, and I probably will, live my life without ever having to use a firearm in self-defense. That would make me very happy. On the other hand I have a responsiblity to protect my family and my life - I would rather be prepared to do so than unprepared. Legally one is justified in shooting to stop when one is in reasonable fear for their life - but the plain fact is that if one is forced to use a firearm or other lethal weapon to defend ones life - to shoot to stop - the direct emotional fact that one is forced to confront is are you willing to kill someone in that circumstance? One can't truly know unless/until that misfortune should happen - but I'd much rather try to confront and try to answer that question as much as possible before that should happen and be as emotionally and spiritually prepared as possible - than to avoid thinking about it, or pretend I know, or to assume what the answer would be, or to deny that the question exists or isn't important. I think that it would be irresponsible of me to consider using a lethal weapon to defend myself or my family with and to have not confronted what using a lethal weapon in self-defense means. What it means is: if we shot someone in self-defense and they died or were wounded - I wouldn't think of that person as being stopped - I would think of them as being wounded or being dead - emotionally I wouldn't be dealing with the fact that I stopped them - I'd be dealing with the fact that I shot them and wounded them, or that I shot them and killed them.

[invention_45]

jibjab

YOU (and others) seem to think the laws are based on the bible. While SOME laws might be based on biblically-oriented busybodies (i.e., drug laws, prostitution laws), the most important laws (about murder, robbery, rape) are NOT.

These laws, the oldest laws, are based on something very simple. If a large group of people (society) wants to live together, they have to have a way to manage the occasional member who wants to get his way at all costs. No bible is needed to tell me I don't want to be assaulted. No bible is needed to tell me I don't want to be battered. No bible is needed to tell me I don't want to be murdered. I can go on, but you get the idea.

Absent laws, all that's left is the vendetta to manage this type of problem. Managing crime by vendetta would end up in chaos.

So society adopts laws to punish such offenders.

That's where I think the law comes from, because that's where it does come from.

The reason I don't want to kill anybody for no reason at all is that I understand why there is law to prevent me from doing so and I agree with the law, and I have better things to do with my time.

However, since my obedience of laws against murder is based on understanding why they are needed, not 'cause the bible tells me so, I also hold no biblical inhibition against killing somebody if they make it necessary.

So, I will do my best to follow the law in the matter of self-defense. I will do this because the laws are time-tested and are very reasonable. They protect everybody the same. Now, nothing is perfect. I can't guarantee I won't screw up and end up afoul of such laws. But it won't be because I'm trying to break them.