1911 trigger carry condition

[tangolima]

Search for "m3 holster left" on eBay. You will see plenty of repros.

-TL

[Koda94]

Personally, while the 1911 system can be defeated, I think the levels of redundancy built in make it safer overall than many other, more "modern" designs.

I agree, the external safety and grip safety are one of the reasons I invested in the 1911 over the Glock and similar moderns guns years back. What I like most is the grip safety, if Glock had that I might have picked that but im not a LEO or other armed professional and being able to lock out (external safety) the gun and know it still has another safety should the external one get bumped is important to me. IMO and thats all it is but Plaxico wouldn't have had the AD with a 1911 in the same scenario.

[RX-79G]

Both have said the M1911A1s were carried in tanker/pilot holsters, in Condition 1.

Actually:

I recall some tanker holsters being used but many of the guys I knew carried their 1911A1 like I learned to carry mine, cocked, locked and stuffed in the waist band of their trousers.

That's what both of us is wondering about.

Tanker holsters appear to have actually been a real rarity among ground pounders. I'm not clear on what 45gunner did, but it would be interesting to hear if he wore a standard combat harness and a shoulder holster. As I said earlier, I've never seen a photograph of this, and it seems impractical.

[Hunter Customs]

Bob Hunter said

I recall some tanker holsters being used but many of the guys I knew carried their 1911A1 like I learned to carry mine, cocked, locked and stuffed in the waist band of their trousers.

To clarify the above I said many I knew, not most soldiers carried the way I did, as I can't speak for what happened in other units.

RX-79G said

That's what both of us is wondering about.

Tanker holsters appear to have actually been a real rarity among ground pounders. I'm not clear on what 45gunner did, but it would be interesting to hear if he wore a standard combat harness and a shoulder holster. As I said earlier, I've never seen a photograph of this, and it seems impractical.

RX-79G and tangolima , I've spoke enough on Vietnam, I feel that's not the subject topic here.
However to try and help you understand how I carried, think (Mech Infantry).
If you wish to know more about what I did in Vietnam feel free to e-mail or PM me, I'll describe the way I dressed and why; I'll be glad to send you a web address to the unit I was with.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[AK103K]

yes, I think it could have been different. No one, (probably including him) knows if he grabbed the gun in such a way that it would have depressed the 1911 grip safety AND pulled the trigger. All we know is that the trigger was pulled. With the Glock, it could not have been different. With a 1911, safety off, it might have been. It might not have been. There is simply no way to know.

I agree, there really is no way to know, and each instance is its own event. Same goes for the Glocks.

My point about the grip safety is, since so many seem to put a lot of emphasis on them (and faith in them) as a safety, if you get anything resembling a grip on the gun, the grip safety is disengaged. Even without a grip, even slight pressure on the grip safetys spur, will also disengage it.

Its very feasible that if the gun were down a pant leg, the grip safety "could" be disengaged. Grabbing for it would make it worse, and in more than one way. He should have just let it drop, just like anything else.

As far as Glocks go in regards to holsterless carry and not being safe, or less safe than something else, I have yet to find that to be the case. Having been told so often, especially by people who have never carried a Glock in that manner to even know, I carried a second, "empty" but cocked, 17 or 26 repeatedly stuffed in my waistband, and in any imaginable manner, pretty much every minute I was home for about 2 years (Im actually still doing it, as I dry fire constantly), and never once had the trigger trip unless I intended it to do so. Im not talking just sitting in a chair, or walking around in the house, the gun was in my waistband doing anything I normally do around the house, and that can be somewhat physical and energetic.

I didnt baby the gun at all, and if anything, did pretty much everything Ive been told I cant do with it, including repeatedly picking the gun up off a table or workbench, "by" the trigger, an never once had an issue.

That trigger dingus does work at keeping the trigger from being tripped by anything but a direct rearward pressure that disengages it. Ive actually had a couple of people who where shooting mine and were unfamiliar with Glocks, have issues disengaging it while shooting, due to how they had their fingers on the trigger.

I carried a 1911 daily longer than anything else so far, and I have a good idea as to how they work and where their weaknesses lie. I currently carry a Glock in the same capacity and manner as I did the 1911's, and feel no less safe in doing so. While I normally use a good holster, and do with pretty much anything I carry, I have no problem carrying a Glock without a holster, any more than I would most other things. If youre reasonable in your gun handling, its a non issue.

I love the look of that tanker holster. I wonder if anyone makes something similar for a lefty.

El Paso saddlery will make you a nice one. I have a number of them, for both autos and revolvers, and they are very handy holsters....

http://www.epsaddlery.com/pc-96-15-1...8-barrels.aspx

[tangolima]

Hi, Bob,

I've just sent you a PM. Thanks.

-TL

[Jim Watson]

I read that they were supposed to carry in condition 3. That makes sense for the flap. As action was immanent they would draw and rack to chamber, and thumb safety on. But then they would have to hold the pistol in their hands. They couldn't reholster as the flap wouldn't close.

An old (WWII-Korea) manual said to place the pistol "on the parapet or musette bag" in that circumstance.

As said, the thumb safety was one of the last additions to Colt prototypes to produce the 1911. But the grip safety was also added at the request of the Army in 1907. Previous Colt-Browning pistols had either an external hammer or a grip safety, but not both. (The 1899-1900 FN .32 had neither.)

[gc70]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Browning left no journal or notes about how he intended the pistol to be carried. All this "designed to be..." is modern supposition.

Browning did not describe how the 1911 "should" be carried, but his patents did describe how the parts of a 1911 were designed to operate. The 1911 patent (starting on page 7 at line 8) discusses the half-cock notch of the original hammer design as a "safety position" and even describes how to lower the hammer to that position with one hand. The 1913 patent (starting on page 2 at line 98) described the rationale for adding the thumb safety.

Arguing over what might have been Browning's or the Army's intent for the 1911's original design is somewhat academic. The 1911 design has evolved, along with ideas about how it should be used.

Originally Posted by Hunter Customs

Many hammers had a captive half cock ledge [notch] but that's not the case so much anymore, most hammers now have half cock ledges that are just a straight ledge.

There are currently many variations of 1911 designs, each of which should be evaluated and understood based on its specific characteristics. However, one common factor in current 1911 designs is the thumb safety - use it because it is the most effective safety on any 1911 and it provides the safest way to carry any 1911 with a round in the chamber.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by tangolima

What about your officers and NCOs? Did they have sidearms? They had shoulder holsters?

In my unit (I was with the 4th Infantry Division around Pleiku, in the central highlands) company grade officers and NCOs carried the same M16s the rest of us had. Field grade officers carried 1911s in the standard flap holster. But for field grade officers, action was not "imminent" so I doubt they carried in Condition 1.

[44 AMP]

My point about the grip safety is, since so many seem to put a lot of emphasis on them (and faith in them) as a safety, if you get anything resembling a grip on the gun, the grip safety is disengaged. Even without a grip, even slight pressure on the grip safetys spur, will also disengage it.

In many ways the grip safety is like the tab on the Glock trigger. But there is a large difference, and that is that the grip safety and the trigger are two separate actions, and must be moved in opposite directions, AT the SAME TIME.

The Glock style trigger tab is ON the trigger, and moves in the same direction as the trigger. I'm not going to say its not safe, but I will opine that it is NOT AS SAFE as a system that requires two separate actions, in opposite direction in order to fire, accidently.

As far as those who "Mexican carry" a GLock, or similar gun for years without incident, what does that prove? Other than you didn't shoot yourself. IF I did the same thing with a Sig P220, or a 1911, what would that prove? Only that I did, or did not have an accident.

I have done a number of unsafe things in my life, and gotten away with them. I have also done a number of unsafe things and been injured. ALL I will recommend to others is what I believe to be safe.

[Jim Watson]

The Glock's trigger tab is only a drop safety.
It blocks the trigger from moving back under inertia if dropped muzzle up.
It has no other function because it is cleared as you lay your finger (or holster strap, in one case) across it.

[AK103K]

The Glock's trigger tab is only a drop safety.
It blocks the trigger from moving back under inertia if dropped muzzle up.

It also works to stop lateral/rearwards pressure as well. If youve shot one enough, you know what I mean. Any pressure on the trigger prior to tripping the safety, and it wont go rearwards until you back off the pressure and reapply it properly.

[44 AMP]

While the maker has the right (or at least the ability) to call what they make whatever they want, I have always considered the Glock tab to be a "trigger activation switch" rather than an actual safety.

But that's just my way of looking at it...

[Aguila Blanca]

The Glock trigger "safety" is obviously ineffectual, as proven by real world experiences. Example: There was a case a year or two ago in which a man shot himself in the leg in his car. He was attempting to holster his sidearm. The holster was old and somewhat broken down, and one of the lips folded under and entered the trigger window. As he pushed the pistol down into the holster, this flap of leather activated the trigger and discharged the firearm. The pistol was, of course, a Glock.

The same thing could not have happened with a 1911 unless he consciously (or unconsciously?) depressed the grip safety fully when holstering. As a long-time 1911 carrier and shooter, I can't imagine anyone depressing the grip safety when holstering (but I'm sure there's someone out there who does so).

[Jim Watson]

There was a line of holsters revised with safety straps too broad to go through a Glock trigger guard to prevent such things.

[RickB]

I recall some tanker holsters being used but many of the guys I knew carried their 1911A1 like I learned to carry mine, cocked, locked and stuffed in the waist band of their trousers.

That's what both of us is wondering about.

Tanker holsters appear to have actually been a real rarity among ground pounders. I'm not clear on what 45gunner did, but it would be interesting to hear if he wore a standard combat harness and a shoulder holster. As I said earlier, I've never seen a photograph of this, and it seems impractical.

I've seen a photograph of a WWII fighter pilot wearing an M3 at the waist, with the gun riding low on the right hip. I don't know if it was worn that way in the cockpit, but it looked pretty racy.
My dad was in an amphibious unit in the '60s, and a picture of the guys all lined up for a group photo shows the officers wearing their .45s in M3s. I suppose they could be considered "tankers" in their LVTs.
Again, not infantry.

[AK103K]

I have always considered the Glock tab to be a "trigger activation switch" rather than an actual safety.

That is an interesting way to look at it, and very much correct.

There was a line of holsters revised with safety straps too broad to go through a Glock trigger guard to prevent such things.

My first couple of early holsters had retention straps, until I found they were constantly the cause of knocking the thumb safety off on my Government Models. I trimmed some, with some better results, but they still seemed to be an issue. Once I trimmed the strap completely off of one, it got better, and that was the last belt holster I bought that had a retention strap.

Personally, I think the strap type retention holsters are more prone to problems/trouble than the other types, and would not suggest them to someone.

Even without the strap, many a day I was doing a lot of physical activity, the thumb safety was off on most every 1911 I ever carried, when I took it off at the end of the day. Not that it was really an issue, as the gun was in a holster, but I found it does occur pretty regular with daily carry and an active lifestyle.

A lot of the thumb safety issue with the 1911's is related to the "detent" in the safety that the plunger pops into. Ive had a couple of guns where the safety was very difficult to get off, because the detent was to deep, and needed some filing to relieve it, and others where it almost fell off by itself, because it was to shallow, and needed to be deepened. Both of those situations are not good, and need to be addressed.

The Glock trigger "safety" is obviously ineffectual, as proven by real world experiences.

That can be said of pretty much anything, especially if you are sloppy in your gun handling, and as was the case youre referring to.

How many "problems" do you think occurred with 1911's, before the Glocks (and the internet) ever showed up, especially when someone wasnt familiar or careful with them?

If youre the least be reasonable and prudent with your gun handling, a Glock is no more dangerous than anything else. Ive been carrying 1911's, HK's, SIG's, Glocks, and a number of others, pretty much daily, since the early 70's, and so far, never had a problem with any of them. Then again, I put the time in with all of them, to know the gun before I put it in a holster.

The same thing could not have happened with a 1911 unless he consciously (or unconsciously?) depressed the grip safety fully when holstering. As a long-time 1911 carrier and shooter, I can't imagine anyone depressing the grip safety when holstering (but I'm sure there's someone out there who does so).

A lot of people are pretty scary when they reholster, and I dont think they give it much thought.

I could easily see what happened above, happening with a 1911, and if all the stars were aligned, that often lighter SA trigger, is going to trip a lot easier than the Glocks, or most other types.

Again, people come to over rely on, and put to much faith in those manual safties.

No matter what the gun, you always reholster with thought, and do so, "reluctantly".

[44 AMP]

The "tanker" holster is also known as "holster, vehicle crewman"...in its various models.

My experience has been that what is worn on duty is what your unit has, or what you have, and your CO will let you get away with. Commands where troops are getting shot and blown up are generally a bit more flexible about meeting uniform requirements than commands where this is not happening.

[Koda94]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

The Glock trigger "safety" is obviously ineffectual, as proven by real world experiences. Example: There was a case a year or two ago in which a man shot himself in the leg in his car. He was attempting to holster his sidearm. The holster was old and somewhat broken down, and one of the lips folded under and entered the trigger window. As he pushed the pistol down into the holster, this flap of leather activated the trigger and discharged the firearm. The pistol was, of course, a Glock.

The same thing could not have happened with a 1911 unless he consciously (or unconsciously?) depressed the grip safety fully when holstering. As a long-time 1911 carrier and shooter, I can't imagine anyone depressing the grip safety when holstering (but I'm sure there's someone out there who does so).

I agree about the Glock trigger "safety" I really have never understood the point of a trigger safety in the context of that kind of design. If it doesnt do anything to prevent trigger snag then whats the point, although I've heard arguments for it that its designed to do so a small amount. In my opinion the only advantage over the Glock "safe action" is providing nothing snags the trigger it wont AD if dropped whereas one can argue the possibility with a 1911.

forgive my ignorance I am just curious how does one holster a 1911 without depressing the grip safety?

[kcub]

http://www.epsaddlery.com/c-14-military.aspx

There are some cool old school 1911 holsters made by El Paso Saddlery. The Patton/Wild Bunch rig, the Pershing cavalry swivel model.

[hammer58]

forgive my ignorance I am just curious how does one holster a 1911 without depressing the grip safety?

I second that question

[kcub]

Like porcupines making love, very carefully.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by Koda94

forgive my ignorance I am just curious how does one holster a 1911 without depressing the grip safety?

Forefinger along the frame, three fingers around the front of the grip, thumb over the hammer and pressing against the back of the slide.

[Koda94]

I will assume that this is done after the thumb safety has been engaged to the safe position, then the full grip is switched to a modified grip so the thumb acts as a hammer block and to prevent the grip safety from being engaged (by the full grip).

Is this technique something that is taught professionally or perhaps in the military when the 1911 was standard issue? With the thumb safety engaged I don’t see how this is safer to holster the pistol with a modified grip of the pistol. More manipulation and less secure hold on the pistol, IMO retention isn’t completed until the pistol is secured in the holster!

[RX-79G]

You can also just grab the bottom half of the grip and push.