Luger artillery

Bigbaz357 · April 1, 2014, 07:46 PM

Hi guys, been away for a while. I have just seen a luger artillery with an f suffix.
Any ideas on rough dates of manufacture? I'm thinking of buying.
It's highly engraved and comes with the usual story of being a presentation piece for some high ranking german officer. I will try and get more pics of markings. But any help would be great..

James K · April 1, 2014, 07:53 PM

Very nice gun, and what looks like excellent engraving in the Germanic style. But buy the gun, not the story, and always take "presentation" pieces with a grain of salt the size of a salt block.

I might comment further if you have better pictures of other areas of the gun.

Jim

**44 AMP** · April 1, 2014, 08:22 PM

You should get them to knock some off the price since all those little leaves it lay under when it was dropped outside the Eagle's Nest really messed up the bluing!

Seriously nice piece, (although I don't like the leaves much) probably asking a serious price. Are we talking the cost of a new small car here, or worse?

Frame slotted for stock, flat toggle knobs...more views would be really nice.

The stories are neat to hear. Some of them are likely true, BUT, only proof means money. If there's a GI bringback record saying this one was taken from the Gauleiter of Bremerhaven that one thing. Owner's daddy saying Granpa took it from a NAZI bigwig is another.

JT-AR-MG42 · April 1, 2014, 09:14 PM

44 is right.
And I have never seen a capture document that showed the original owners rank!

I've also looked at lots of archive photos.
It is rare indeed to see any 9mm sidearm being carried by a 'high ranking' Officer, not to mention an Artillery.
Not many of them relished the idea of lugging 3 1/2 lbs. of iron all day for no purpose.

But the stories persist.

Also looking forward to more pics. That barrel allowed for lots of engraving. The red 'fire' dot is interesting. I've just never seen that on a period engraved Luger.
Curious that the magazine has what looks to be a war2 aluminum bottom(or is it the lighting).
Matching?

JT

trigger643 · April 1, 2014, 10:16 PM

No, no presentation piece. Who'd tolerate those poorly fitted grips accompanying a pistol that would be handed to someone that could have you taken out and shot?

The engraving is pretty, the finish is fine. If you think for a moment it looked like this before 1950, you're likely to be mistaken. And I doubt the piece left the engraver's hands with those grips.

Without documentation as to who did the engraving, it's just another pretty gun, probably lacking the grips it was intended to have.

Though rare, it was not unheard of for master engravers in the 1950's and 60's to tackle Lugers. There are several in the Norton Gallery in Shreveport. The most famous of which is a 1902 Carbine done by Prudhomme that appeared on the 1965 or 66 annual gun digest.

I'm not saying they're aren't presentation lugers, but this one isn't one.

Goring's Luger sold a few years ago at Rock Island Arsenal. It's perhaps the most famous of the presentation Lugers.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/52/lid/3472

Jim Watson · April 2, 2014, 09:18 AM

An f suffix for what year and maker?

My usual suspect for engraved German firearms is there were a lot of hungry craftsmen in Occupied Germany and they were working cheap. You could get a souvenir dressed up at no great expense.

I wonder what the clunky grips are made of. Surely not ivory, celluloid maybe.

**44 AMP** · April 2, 2014, 11:06 AM

Without seeing any of the markings, its tough to pin down what it was before it went to the engraver. However, here are a few things I found while looking...

I could find only 3 variations of the Artillery Luger. 1914 Erfurt, 1914 DWM, and 1920 Commercial (DWM)

Based ONLY on the information of the "f" serial number suffix, my guess is the gun is a 1914 DWM, made in 1917. To be more certain, we need to see the toggle & chamber markings and proof marks.

The commercial 1920 guns will have the commercial Crown/N proof mark. And may have a chamber date, if made from a reworked military gun, or no date, if made new (and some were).

The military guns will NOT have a commercial proofmark, having the German military test fire acceptance marking instead.

Magazines for the 1914 pattern guns have a tin plated wrap around body with a wooden base. They are proofmarked and serial # to the gun.

Magazines for the 1920 Commercial are the same, but not marked or serial#'d.

Those grips look uncommonly thick, and, of course are not the originals.

More pics, particularly the markings will tell us what the gun was before it became a presentation piece. They will not, however tell us WHEN that gun got engraved and refinished, or who did it.

The engraving might be identified by a real expert in Luger engraving, as each engraver has their own "style" and many are identified, but that is something way beyond me.

It is also remotely possible that the gun was never made as a regular production gun, but that parts were assembled for the presentation piece. Without more info, we're just shooting in the dark.

James K · April 2, 2014, 02:06 PM

Hi, Trigger643,

Note that the auction site does NOT say that Luger is Göring's or was made for him. It says that it is "assumed" that it was made for some prominent person, like Göring. Göring's name probably added thousands of dollars to the sale price, but there is no evidence presented that it was his gun or that it was made for him.

As I have written elsewhere, at the end of WWII in Europe, Germany was devastated, its once proud people reduced to begging the very necessities of life from their conquerors. One thing they could sell was their skills and a skill much in demand was gun engraving. Tens of millions of Wehrmacht and police weapons had been seized by the Allied forces and American soldiers, alone among the Allied forces, were allowed to retain many of those weapons as souvenirs. And some of them wanted their guns enhanced in some way, especially by engraving.

A basic engraving job on a Luger cost a carton of cigarettes or a couple of boxes of C-rations, and was often called "cigarette engraving." The practice continued into the 1950s and beyond, as occupation troops took over from the combat soldiers and learned their way around. The prices went up, and the work was much better, it was still a bargain compared to similar work in the States, and some very good work came out of that era.

So, an engraved German pistol or shotgun or hunting rifle does not mean it was a presentation piece for a Nazi bigwig; it might have been done for Captain Jones or Colonel Smith in 1954.

Sixty years later, that gun might well sell for a lot of money if it is "assumed" that it was a presentation piece for Göring or Hitler or whomever.

One more point. Most true presentation pieces are engraved with the name of the presenter, the name of the recipient and often the circumstances of the presentation. One without such information may be a nice, engraved gun, but it is unlikely to be a presentation piece. Of course, presentation pieces have been faked, one faker even misspelling Göring's name!!!

Jim

Bigbaz357 · April 2, 2014, 09:02 PM

Hi guys, and thanks for the replies. I'll go back to the store and take more pics today...it's being held while waiting for permits etc... The grip is indeed ivory. Which is why I'm intrigued by this piece.

Rembrandt · April 2, 2014, 09:21 PM

For an engraved gun of an Officer of some stature, I find it odd that there is no unit or military designation incorporated into the design. Military men (of any country) are quite proud of their service and the units in which they serve. They would want something (insignia, or unit number, initials) engraved to commemorate time of service. Looks like a war souvenir a GI had engraved after they came home.

Bigbaz357 · April 2, 2014, 10:19 PM

Just looking at the pics of "Goering's" gold luger, the engraving is very similar with the leaves and acorns....I'm not speculating otherwise and anyone can shoot me down here, but who's to say it wasn't a presentation piece? It could've been done for anyone. It doesn't have to be a documented item to be genuine does it? Either way, I love how it looks and it'll sit nicely in my collection.
I just want to know a little more about these as I'm a new luger fan.
I do appreciate all the input though be it positive or negative. It's only speculation unless some still alive german puts his hand up and says "hey that was mine)

It's still history and that's what I love about these...

Bigbaz357 · April 3, 2014, 01:59 AM

Receiver stamps

Bigbaz357 · April 3, 2014, 02:00 AM

Barrel markings

Bigbaz357 · April 3, 2014, 02:02 AM

Some inscription i couldn't read

Bigbaz357 · April 3, 2014, 02:03 AM

Left side with toggle

Bigbaz357 · April 3, 2014, 02:05 AM

Upper which is blurry sorry

Bigbaz357 · April 3, 2014, 02:07 AM

Magazine stamp

Bigbaz357 · April 3, 2014, 02:09 AM

Bottom of the mag. I know alloy isn't period correct? But still interesting to me..

gyvel · April 3, 2014, 05:36 AM

Has Imperial German army proof.

gyvel · April 3, 2014, 05:37 AM

And I believe that Haenel Schmeisser magazine is one of the scarce stainless steel ones. The mag alone is probably worth $200.00 or more.

James K · April 3, 2014, 07:40 PM

The serial number indicates standard military production, so it is most likely that the other markings and numbers had been present but were removed by whoever did the engraving. Even the safety marking was removed and the toggle scrubbed of the manufacturer's designation. It was not normal engraving practice to remove such markings; usually the engraver worked around the factory markings but did not remove them.

The photos don't show whether the receiver ring has the front step characteristic of the "lange Pistolen", but if not, the receiver was not originally made with the long barrel.

I still believe, FWIW, that the pistol was a standard military pistol (long or short) that was scrubbed and engraved in Germany in the post-WWII era, not a Nazi-era presentation piece. It should, again IMHO, be evaluated as a rather nicely engraved pistol but only that, not as some special gun made up for a high ranking government or armed forces official in the Nazi period.

Jim

**44 AMP** · April 3, 2014, 10:52 PM

Just had a thought, has anyone gotten any really good looks at actual Nazi era presentation pieces?

What I am wondering is, wouldn't they have a Wa Pruf stamp?, And since they were made during the Nazi administration, wouldn't the eagle be something the engravers (or the person ordering the work) wouldn't cover up or remove?

gyvel · April 4, 2014, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Just had a thought, has anyone gotten any really good looks at actual Nazi era presentation pieces?

Except that this is not a Nazi era piece. It has a WWI Imperial army proof. It's doubtful that it is anything more than a fine example of the engraver's art.

Jim Watson · April 4, 2014, 11:23 AM

It is a German gun engraved in Germanic style.
Anything else is speculation. Not verifying or falsifying a legend, there isn't one to debate. No point making stuff up. Better not to, it would just be told for fact the next time the gun goes up for sale.

**44 AMP** · April 4, 2014, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Just had a thought, has anyone gotten any really good looks at actual Nazi era presentation pieces?

Except that this is not a Nazi era piece. It has a WWI Imperial army proof. It's doubtful that it is anything more than a fine example of the engraver's art.

I wasn't talking about THIS gun, I meant verified Nazi era presentations pieces.

April 1, 2014, 08:22 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	You should get them to knock some off the price since all those little leaves it lay under when it was dropped outside the Eagle's Nest really messed up the bluing! Seriously nice piece, (although I don't like the leaves much) probably asking a serious price. Are we talking the cost of a new small car here, or worse? Frame slotted for stock, flat toggle knobs...more views would be really nice. The stories are neat to hear. Some of them are likely true, BUT, only proof means money. If there's a GI bringback record saying this one was taken from the Gauleiter of Bremerhaven that one thing. Owner's daddy saying Granpa took it from a NAZI bigwig is another. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 2, 2014, 11:06 AM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	Without seeing any of the markings, its tough to pin down what it was before it went to the engraver. However, here are a few things I found while looking... I could find only 3 variations of the Artillery Luger. 1914 Erfurt, 1914 DWM, and 1920 Commercial (DWM) Based ONLY on the information of the "f" serial number suffix, my guess is the gun is a 1914 DWM, made in 1917. To be more certain, we need to see the toggle & chamber markings and proof marks. The commercial 1920 guns will have the commercial Crown/N proof mark. And may have a chamber date, if made from a reworked military gun, or no date, if made new (and some were). The military guns will NOT have a commercial proofmark, having the German military test fire acceptance marking instead. Magazines for the 1914 pattern guns have a tin plated wrap around body with a wooden base. They are proofmarked and serial # to the gun. Magazines for the 1920 Commercial are the same, but not marked or serial#'d. Those grips look uncommonly thick, and, of course are not the originals. More pics, particularly the markings will tell us what the gun was before it became a presentation piece. They will not, however tell us WHEN that gun got engraved and refinished, or who did it. The engraving might be identified by a real expert in Luger engraving, as each engraver has their own "style" and many are identified, but that is something way beyond me. It is also remotely possible that the gun was never made as a regular production gun, but that parts were assembled for the presentation piece. Without more info, we're just shooting in the dark. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 2, 2014, 02:06 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Trigger643, Note that the auction site does NOT say that Luger is Göring's or was made for him. It says that it is "assumed" that it was made for some prominent person, like Göring. Göring's name probably added thousands of dollars to the sale price, but there is no evidence presented that it was his gun or that it was made for him. As I have written elsewhere, at the end of WWII in Europe, Germany was devastated, its once proud people reduced to begging the very necessities of life from their conquerors. One thing they could sell was their skills and a skill much in demand was gun engraving. Tens of millions of Wehrmacht and police weapons had been seized by the Allied forces and American soldiers, alone among the Allied forces, were allowed to retain many of those weapons as souvenirs. And some of them wanted their guns enhanced in some way, especially by engraving. A basic engraving job on a Luger cost a carton of cigarettes or a couple of boxes of C-rations, and was often called "cigarette engraving." The practice continued into the 1950s and beyond, as occupation troops took over from the combat soldiers and learned their way around. The prices went up, and the work was much better, it was still a bargain compared to similar work in the States, and some very good work came out of that era. So, an engraved German pistol or shotgun or hunting rifle does not mean it was a presentation piece for a Nazi bigwig; it might have been done for Captain Jones or Colonel Smith in 1954. Sixty years later, that gun might well sell for a lot of money if it is "assumed" that it was a presentation piece for Göring or Hitler or whomever. One more point. Most true presentation pieces are engraved with the name of the presenter, the name of the recipient and often the circumstances of the presentation. One without such information may be a nice, engraved gun, but it is unlikely to be a presentation piece. Of course, presentation pieces have been faked, one faker even misspelling Göring's name!!! Jim Last edited by James K; April 2, 2014 at 02:12 PM.

April 2, 2014, 09:02 PM	#9
Bigbaz357 Member Join Date: July 21, 2013 Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 21	Luger Hi guys, and thanks for the replies. I'll go back to the store and take more pics today...it's being held while waiting for permits etc... The grip is indeed ivory. Which is why I'm intrigued by this piece. __________________ if you can't be civil, don't talk to me...

April 2, 2014, 10:19 PM	#11
Bigbaz357 Member Join Date: July 21, 2013 Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 21	Just looking at the pics of "Goering's" gold luger, the engraving is very similar with the leaves and acorns....I'm not speculating otherwise and anyone can shoot me down here, but who's to say it wasn't a presentation piece? It could've been done for anyone. It doesn't have to be a documented item to be genuine does it? Either way, I love how it looks and it'll sit nicely in my collection. I just want to know a little more about these as I'm a new luger fan. I do appreciate all the input though be it positive or negative. It's only speculation unless some still alive german puts his hand up and says "hey that was mine) It's still history and that's what I love about these... __________________ if you can't be civil, don't talk to me...

April 1, 2014, 07:53 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Very nice gun, and what looks like excellent engraving in the Germanic style. But buy the gun, not the story, and always take "presentation" pieces with a grain of salt the size of a salt block. I might comment further if you have better pictures of other areas of the gun. Jim

April 1, 2014, 09:14 PM	#4
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	44 is right. And I have never seen a capture document that showed the original owners rank! I've also looked at lots of archive photos. It is rare indeed to see any 9mm sidearm being carried by a 'high ranking' Officer, not to mention an Artillery. Not many of them relished the idea of lugging 3 1/2 lbs. of iron all day for no purpose. But the stories persist. Also looking forward to more pics. That barrel allowed for lots of engraving. The red 'fire' dot is interesting. I've just never seen that on a period engraved Luger. Curious that the magazine has what looks to be a war2 aluminum bottom(or is it the lighting). Matching? JT

April 1, 2014, 10:16 PM	#5
trigger643 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2011 Posts: 322	No, no presentation piece. Who'd tolerate those poorly fitted grips accompanying a pistol that would be handed to someone that could have you taken out and shot? The engraving is pretty, the finish is fine. If you think for a moment it looked like this before 1950, you're likely to be mistaken. And I doubt the piece left the engraver's hands with those grips. Without documentation as to who did the engraving, it's just another pretty gun, probably lacking the grips it was intended to have. Though rare, it was not unheard of for master engravers in the 1950's and 60's to tackle Lugers. There are several in the Norton Gallery in Shreveport. The most famous of which is a 1902 Carbine done by Prudhomme that appeared on the 1965 or 66 annual gun digest. I'm not saying they're aren't presentation lugers, but this one isn't one. Goring's Luger sold a few years ago at Rock Island Arsenal. It's perhaps the most famous of the presentation Lugers. http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/52/lid/3472

April 2, 2014, 09:18 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	An f suffix for what year and maker? My usual suspect for engraved German firearms is there were a lot of hungry craftsmen in Occupied Germany and they were working cheap. You could get a souvenir dressed up at no great expense. I wonder what the clunky grips are made of. Surely not ivory, celluloid maybe.

April 2, 2014, 09:21 PM	#10
Rembrandt Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2002 Posts: 2,108	For an engraved gun of an Officer of some stature, I find it odd that there is no unit or military designation incorporated into the design. Military men (of any country) are quite proud of their service and the units in which they serve. They would want something (insignia, or unit number, initials) engraved to commemorate time of service. Looks like a war souvenir a GI had engraved after they came home.

April 3, 2014, 05:36 AM	#19
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Has Imperial German army proof.

April 3, 2014, 05:37 AM	#20
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	And I believe that Haenel Schmeisser magazine is one of the scarce stainless steel ones. The mag alone is probably worth $200.00 or more.

April 3, 2014, 07:40 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The serial number indicates standard military production, so it is most likely that the other markings and numbers had been present but were removed by whoever did the engraving. Even the safety marking was removed and the toggle scrubbed of the manufacturer's designation. It was not normal engraving practice to remove such markings; usually the engraver worked around the factory markings but did not remove them. The photos don't show whether the receiver ring has the front step characteristic of the "lange Pistolen", but if not, the receiver was not originally made with the long barrel. I still believe, FWIW, that the pistol was a standard military pistol (long or short) that was scrubbed and engraved in Germany in the post-WWII era, not a Nazi-era presentation piece. It should, again IMHO, be evaluated as a rather nicely engraved pistol but only that, not as some special gun made up for a high ranking government or armed forces official in the Nazi period. Jim

April 3, 2014, 10:52 PM	#22
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	Just had a thought, has anyone gotten any really good looks at actual Nazi era presentation pieces? What I am wondering is, wouldn't they have a Wa Pruf stamp?, And since they were made during the Nazi administration, wouldn't the eagle be something the engravers (or the person ordering the work) wouldn't cover up or remove? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 4, 2014, 11:23 AM	#24
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	It is a German gun engraved in Germanic style. Anything else is speculation. Not verifying or falsifying a legend, there isn't one to debate. No point making stuff up. Better not to, it would just be told for fact the next time the gun goes up for sale.