shoot or retreat

[historybuff]

How does the "stand your ground" or "justifiable homicide" apply in the following senerio:

Oklahoma Club owner was at home, gets a call that a man won't leave and is drunk and disorderly. Police were also called. Drunk guy left club and is across the street. Club owner shows up, gets out of his car with a gun, drunk guy comes from across the street shooting, Club owner kills drunk guy.

Should Club owner have come ready with gun in hand?
If he was not part of the situation at hand should he not have waited for the police?
If you put yourself in harms way how are you standing your ground?

[hogdogs]

Gun in hand and I am likely target... 2 center of mass right now. He wasn't going there to kill a guy. He was going there to handle business at his business... but he arrived prepared it sounds like to me.

Brent

[Carry_24/7]

The club owner broke the law in Florida. I saw no reason in the scenario for him to have gun in hand.

CCW law is invalid in places that serve alcohol, so where did drunk guy store the gun? If in his vehicle it's ok, if he was carrying it, wrong. It can be argued that drunk guy was defending himself, because according to the scenario club owner presented a weapon first, but just seeing someone with a gun is not justification for shooting them, so according to the scenario drunk guy is also wrong.

Club owner should have waited for the police, and had no reason to draw a weapon according to the elements of the scenario.

Both were stupid; now one is Dead, the other headed to prison. What a night......

[Maxem0815]

The club owner broke the law in Florida. I saw no reason in the scenario for him to have gun in hand

.

I agree in Florida it is illegal to carry in a club or bar not a restaurant. However this scenario is Oklahoma. What are the laws out there? Also what type of a gun was he carrying hand gun or long gun? Next he was shot at was this inside the "club" or on the street? Far to many variables here to draw any real conclusions. As a point of clarification In Florida the owner was within his right to return fire as he had definite reason to fear for his life he was shot at. If he was retrieving a hand gun from his car to holster it he was in a gray area of concealed carry and open carry. If he was in a parking lot that he owned or leased he was within the law also if he had a firearm inside a locked office in the establishment he was within the law of the State of Florida as he was the operator of the "club". Again not enough information to make an intelligent conclusion.\

As an after thought here my brother was in a similar situation in Connecticut he lives next to his business which is not a bar or restaurant when a gang of thieves attempted to break into his shop he retrieved his hand gun and went outside fortunately the police arrived during the ensuing fight. Shots were exchanged between the gang & my brother the police finished the fight and arrested two, shot one dead and one got away. No charges were ever brought against my brother.

Mace

Happiness is a belt fed weapon and lots of ammo.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Carry 24/7

The club owner broke the law in Florida.

Irrelevant. The incident was reported to be in Oklahoma. The only law that applies is Oklahoma law.

[hogdogs]

While florida is completely irrelevant, I am not so sure he violated the law as written in fla...

I think it is illegal to CCW with a permit in a bar... As in it is against the laws regarding the permit. But as a business owner in fla, he can carry however he wishes on his own place. He can exit his car with gun in hand and displayed to put in pocket or in holster (open or concealed) or under the bar once inside.

Brent

[Spats McGee]

Welcome to TFL, historybuff!

I don't know OK's laws well enough to give an opinion as to the legality of the situation you've presented. However, given that you only have 1 post here, I will offer the following advice: if you are the bar owner in question, I suggest that you quit posting your story on the internet and go hire an attorney, immediately if not sooner. The folks here at TFL are fine folks, but asking for legal advice on the internet is not the best way to stay out of jail in a situation like this. If it's not you, naturally, that advice doesn't apply.

[Double Naught Spy]

If the club owner is on his own property (described here as the club owner), at the club, then I don't think he broke any state laws in the US. I don't know of any states that stipulate that the owners of drinking establishments must be unarmed, but maybe I am wrong. He also would not have to have a permit because he is on private property.

I do agree that I am not sure why the club owner shows up after being called from home about somebody that is drunk and disorderly. What sort of incompentent mgmt does he have that they can't call the cops?

[Don H]

Agree with Spats. Also, web postings have a habit of later haunting those who make them. A number of posters on TFL who have discussed an incident that happened to them have chosen (wisely, I think) to delete the narrative. If this is the case here, I suggest that you rethink posting about the incident.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There isn't enough information in your post to give you an answer that has a high probability of being accurate. Shooting cases can be very complex and even small facts can affect the ultimate outcome. Is this the incident you are discussing?

The Oklahoma legislature recently rewrote the Stand Your Ground law to give more protection to business owners; but that new law will not go into effect until November 1, 2011, so it won't do your club owner much good. The current Oklahoma laws on deadly force in self-defense can be found here.

The relevant part of the statute is:
"D. A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

However, you would want to look at Oklahoma case law to see how this statute has been interpreted. There are often additional elements that must be met (like not being the person who provoked or started the fight for example) before you can claim protection.

Should Club owner have come ready with gun in hand?

I carry a gun most places I go, so the idea that he came with a gun doesn't strike me as that odd. If he had it in his hand as he exited the car, that strikes me as bad tactics and possibly illegal depending on the other facts.

If he was not part of the situation at hand should he not have waited for the police?

Anytime you can let the police handle a potentially violent conflict, you should. They are usually better equipped to deal with it.

If you put yourself in harms way how are you standing your ground?

How did the club owner put himself in harm's way? I am not clear from that based on the story as you told it. In any case, if the club owner was in a place where he has a legal right to be and was doing nothing unlawful, then whether or not he suspected someone might shoot at him doesn't appear to be relevant just based on the statute; but again you would have to look at the caselaw as well.

[youngunz4life]

but once he was fired upon he was in the right to fire back. "I aimed center mass" - thats my story and I am sticking to it

what's the point of the weapon being brandished? its almost like the drunk guy feared for his life. I would like to have been a fly on the wall; this guy isn't the police. not enough info- but he can fire back if fired upon.

[Carry_24/7]

Yes, I spoke of Florida.

Someone is told there's trouble somewhere, they drive to that trouble, exit their vehicle at the location of trouble with gun drawn, move towards said trouble, ending with the troublemaker dead on the ground. The problem here is if there are CCW license holders who see no problem with how the shooter got himself into the situation of having to shoot in the first place.....

Good luck with that, in any state.


Marc

[maestro pistolero]

If the facts are as reported here on News on 6.com, then this is not a complicated case whatsoever:

Employees at the Park Tavern Bar, 196 East Lake Drive, removed 52-year-old Lawton resident Charles Timothy Taylor from the bar . . . . .

. . . . . .Once Taylor was outside, he pulled a knife and tried to stab the employees and some patrons, according to the OSBI.

. . . . The employees ran back into the bar, locking the doors. They called 911 and the bar's owner to the scene.

. . . . .The bar's owner, who was armed with a gun, arrived just before police.

. . . . . By this time, agents say Taylor had returned with a firearm. As a small crowd of bar goers gathered outside the bar, authorities say Taylor fired his gun at them. The bar's owner then fired back, killing Taylor.

I say the bar owner is a hero and he should be cleared immediately and sent on his way, perhaps with replacement ammunition the PD, as he clearly saved them a few duty rounds.

[hogdogs]

And no where does it say he exited the vehicle with gun in hand nor does it state it was in hand before the dead guy got real stupid and fired on a crowd of people.

Armed with a gun does not imply unholstered and in hand.

Brent

[Carry_24/7]

Hogdogs; true

[Frank Ettin]

We just don't have enough information. From the news account, it seems to have been a complicated situation evolving over a period of time. The details are very important, and we just don't have them.

[hogdogs]

This thread needs a re-start! Too many folks jumped to conclusions that muddied the factual river of information and thus the thread is not in any way leading towards a beneficial direction. At best it is now a thread about not posting without actual understanding of the subject matter up for discussion...

Brent

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by hogdogs

...Too many folks jumped to conclusions that muddied the factual river of information and thus the thread is not in any way leading towards a beneficial direction...

But the OP asked:

Originally Posted by historybuff

...Should Club owner have come ready with gun in hand?
If he was not part of the situation at hand should he not have waited for the police?
If you put yourself in harms way how are you standing your ground?...

These questions, in the context of the event, can not be properly answered without a whole lot more detailed information.

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, I spoke of Florida.

Someone is told there's trouble somewhere, they drive to that trouble, exit their vehicle at the location of trouble with gun drawn, move towards said trouble, ending with the troublemaker dead on the ground. The problem here is if there are CCW license holders who see no problem with how the shooter got himself into the situation of having to shoot in the first place.....

Good luck with that, in any state.

Club owner was told of trouble at his place of business and responded. That is legal in every state.

Gun was drawn? He didn't draw a gun. He was carrying a gun, so not a problem. He was on his own private property. That is definitely legal.

Interesting that you have classified the shooter as a CCW person. Nowhere was it stated that he was a CCW person and nowhere was it stated that he was carrying concealed. Since he was on his own property, no CCW laws apply to the property owner.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Upon further reading, the information as presented in the OP is incomplete at best, probably just downright inaccurate.

News stories indicate a response by the owner to a clear threat to life and property.

If so, kudos to the business owner. If not, we shall await more detail.

[Carry_24/7]

Double naught; you, obviously did not read where I admitted I jumped to conclusions. Read the whole thread, calm down....stay current

[raisitup]

I don't see a mea culpa anywhere in the thread, I think he's well up to date

Pee ess since I'm here, and strictly academically, Florida CCW isn't "invalid" in places licensed to serve alcohol, only in that portion of such a licensed place primarily devoted to consuming alcohol. The parking lot, generally speaking, would not necessarily be such a place.

Ryan

[Carry_24/7]

Raisitup; What Hothog said was true, Mea culpa, I jumped to conclusions, I was wrong, I assumed.....

We good?

[MLeake]

So, the club owner's employees called, and said, "Boss, we have a problem," and some people here think it was unreasonable for the owner to go to the club and check on the welfare of his employees and the safety of his business?

Are you kidding? Most of us would call that proper leadership.

And who says the police were not called?

So, then, the club owner arrives at his business, and the guy who caused his employees to call the owner is still outside, acting like a wild man, and some people here think it was unreasonable for the owner to have his gun ready as he exited his vehicle? Seriously?

And then, the wacko charges, shooting the first shots from a gun he either had on his person, or else retrieved from his vehicle (and came back to the club with - for what purpose?), so the owner returns fire, and some people ask whether this was lawful? Or better yet, ethical?

Again, are you kidding?

[hogdogs]

Employees at the Park Tavern Bar, 196 East Lake Drive, removed 52-year-old Lawton resident Charles Timothy Taylor from the bar after patrons complained about his behavior. Once Taylor was outside, he pulled a knife and tried to stab the employees and some patrons, according to the OSBI.

The employees ran back into the bar, locking the doors. They called 911 and the bar's owner to the scene. The bar's owner, who was armed with a gun, arrived just before police.

The cops were called and the owner was forced to stop the threat of the gun firing crazed drunken fella before the cops arrived...

Brent