Mauser question w/pics

[gasmandave]

I just bought a Mauser .308 cal with a turned down bolt. I know it's a conversion I just need to know what model it is. It has no markings that I can find yet. There is a large bolt through the fore-end like Ive seen on other rifles. The shop where I got it didn't know what model as they had 2 in 308 and both were different. The magazine follower has a taper at the rear so that after the last round you can still close the bolt without depressing the follower, the other mauser didn't have that. The rear sights were both different wood hand guard in front and behind the rear sight and no bolt at the rear of the stock and the other didn't have the bolt through the stock and the magazine bases were different. The Front sight on mine has a circular guard open on the top. Any idea what it is? Or how I can tell what it is.

[Slamfire]

Will need pictures.

Go to a free internet picture site, like Photobucket, get an account and upload the pictures.

If this was a car site your post would read:

"I have a car, it has four wheels, the trunk is big, it has been repainted, tapered in the front, can you tell me what model it is?"

Ah, no.

[gasmandave]

"I have a car, it has four wheels, the trunk is big, it has been repainted, tapered in the front, can you tell me what model it is?" So can you help me with my car too! Cool you guys are great! Seriously This post is useless without pix...The rifle is at home and I'm not. Will have to post a picture later.

[xf9218]

Measure the bolt If its 7&1/2 inches long you have a Yugo M48bo

[gasmandave]

Bolt is a tad over 6 3/4"

[Hummer70]

Looks like a Chilean 308 conversion a little bit. Is there writing on left side of receiver like Modelo ??????

Don't change a thing on it, leave it just like it is. Nice condition to boot.

[xf9218]

Appears to be a small ring mauser Spain when they joined NATO had there 7mm mausers redone to use NATO 7.62x51 rounds or .308 Years ago I had a sporterized one and killed many a hog with it Hopes this may help

[Moloch]

Just don't shoot standard commercial .308 through it, the small ring Mauser can't handle the pressure very well.

[gasmandave]

What do you mean "Don't shoot standard 308 through it...they don't handle it well" Does it mean it will blow up or just rattle loose? I have 4 boxes of mil sup ammo and 3 boxes of Winchester power points.

[Mauser8mm]

http://mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/kodyen.html

[Moloch]

I'm just saying the small ring Mausers were originally chambered in cartridges like 6.5x55 and 7mm mauser, the 7.62x51 has a good bit more pressure than those old cartridges, and commercial ammo is loaded even hotter than the Nato.
On top of that the small ring Mausers don't have a reputation of being very strong and pressure friendly, there are several cases of small Mauser actions blown up by commercial .308.

Collectors shooting this rifle mostly use their own slightly downloaded reloads, and that would be my advice as well.

[Slamfire]

I agree it is a small ring Mauser and if it is in 308 it has been converted.

The problems with these 308 conversions is that the 308 operates at much higher pressures than original, and I mean pre 1898, 7mm Mauser cartridges. Also the date of your receiver is unknown if the ring stampings have all been ground off.

Ludwig Olsen was a real Mauser expert and described the proof loads for pre WW1 Mauser M98 actions in “Rifle Magazine” Issue 159 May 1995 Dear Editor pg 10


What you notice is even these early M98 mausers were proofed at pressures that are about equal to the normal operating pressures of 308 Winchesters. Constant shooting of full power 308 loads would be a severe strain on an early receiver.

Ludwig Olsen
Mauser 98 actions produced by Mauser and DWM were proofed with two loads that produced approximately 1000 atmosphere greater pressure than normal factory rounds. That procedure was in accordance with the 1891 German proof law. Proof pressure for the Mauser 98 in 7 X57 was 4,050 atmospheres (57, 591 psi). Pressure of the normal 7 X 57 factory load with 11.2 gram bullet was given in Mauser’s 1908 patent boot as 3,050 atmosphere, or 43, 371 pounds.

While many Mausers in the 1908 Brazilian category will likely endure pressures considerably in excess of the 4,050 atmospheres proof loads, there might be some setback of the receiver locking shoulder with such high pressures.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazin...159partial.pdf


Spanish Mausers gained an unfortunate reputation because enough accounts have surfaced about the inconsistent metallurgy and heat treatment of these actions. It is a gamble when dealing with Spanish Mausers:


Excessive Headspace in M1916 Mauser
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....9&postcount=10

Oceans - It is true, as I found out today, sadly.

I've had my 1916 Spanish Guardia Mauser from Samco for about 20 years now. Took it deer hunting every year until last year, when I heard about the same thing you did. I shot .308 rounds out of it.

Finally got the headspace checked by a gunsmith, and - well, the bolt locked EASILY on "no-go". And we're talking like butter. I snapped the firing pin and will have it hanging on the wall of my office soon.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=632782

I recommend...
________________________________________
that you honorably retire the rifle.
My experience with the Spanish '93-type actions is that they are not suitable for rebarreling to any modern cartridge at all.
They are all soft (many years ago, I watched an old gunsmith squash one in simply tightening his action wrench onto it. When he noticed that the barrel shank wouldn't thread back into the action, and realized why, he simply took the receiver out of the wrench, laid it on his bench and smacked it with a big brass hammer until he could screw the barrel back in).
With pressures higher than about 40 KPSI (virtually all modern CF rifle cartridges), the locking lugs will set-back into their seats very quickly, increasing headspace until the bolt becomes hard to open and case heads separate. Several years ago, a customer (and friend) decided he'd like to make up a 7.62x39 rifle on just such a '93 Spanish action. I couldn't talk him out of it, so made and fitted a barrel for him. In shooting about 200 rounds of Wolf ammunition, it battered itself into just the state I described above.
Just my recommendation, but not based on hearsay.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

You need to look at the pictures and thread here

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html


Even the vaunted small ring Swedish actions have issues:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...low-up-project


Variation in M96 Swede Actions

Quite a few years ago another fellow and I bought 60 of those Sweedes when they could still be had quite cheap. We decided we were going to do a quick "sporterising" on them and make a fortune. Took the whole pile and bent the bolts, drilled and tapped, cut down stocks, installed Weaver mounts, the whole banana.

Learned a lot on that one, 60 bolts to low forge and polish is one heck of a lot of work for one, not all Sweedes are heat treated the same for another.
Noticed a lot of variation when we started to drill and tap. Some seemed like butter, some hard as glass. Started to put them on the Rockwell machine and it proved out so. Some receivers would not hardly register, some were as high as 42. Bolts also were all over the place.

It didn't seem to make any difference as to year of manufacture, they just varied. Most seemed to follow the standard Mauser heat treat with a case hardening but a few came along that seemed to be hard all through.
Interesting project. I think in the long run if we would have stopped to figure our time we lost our butts. Made no difference, in our minds eye we made one heck of a killing.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...roject-259589/

I have a Swedish 96 action almost blown in half.

Bolt remained locked and in position, ~ 1 sq in of right sidewall of receiver has been blown completely off, Right rail fractured right in front of rear bridge. Stock was broken in 2.

No overpressure load.. Factory..

Case failed at primer pocket.. (probably a seam in case blank)

Expanding gas has nowhere to go.. The thin wall of early Mauser actions where locking lugs must rotate, is the weak point. A couple gas relief holes (like on modern bolt rifles) Might have saved action...

If you want to shoot your 308 I recommend you reload. Commercial ammunition is operating at pressures that are too close, or exceed, the proof pressures for these actions. I am of the opinion pressures should be 40,000 or less in these antique actions. I have shot thousands of 168’s with 39.0 grs of IMR 4895 in 308 commercial cases. I use this load standing and sitting rapid fire and have cleaned the target many a time. This pushes a bullet around 2500 fps. Based on examinations of loading manuals this is at the lowest end of 308 loads, probably does not exceed 40,000 lbs. David Tubb published a load he used, a 150 grain with 39.0 grains IMR 4064 for 200 yard work, I have shot this, very accurate and very mild in the 308.

I doubt the military barrel will shoot as well as my Krieger, but my recommended load is very accurate. Twenty shots for record in a 100 yard reduced Highpower match, iron sights, prone with a sling.

[51.50]

Looks like a Spanish Mauser. I bought one imported by Samco that was rebarreled at the factory in Spain. The "Numrich Military Firearms Reference Guide" will have a lot of Mauser info. The guide comes with their Commercial Firearms Reference Guide. (a 3 catalog set that gives a lot of info, pictures and parts available.) The book says the 308 is a model 1916

[Mobuck]

It is a "1916" Mauser. I've seen these with both 93 and 95 bolts. Another quirk noticed is that some of the actions had been cut back at the front ring. Apparently, this was done to facilitate rechambering/reboring the 7x57 to 7.62x51(.308). I've found a couple of these actions with this front ring cut back while others were not. I have one laying on the shelf that the customer brought in to be rebarrelled with a ready to install barrel. Unfortunately, the threaded barrel shank is about .1" longer than the threads inside the front action ring.

[gasmandave]

Well thanks for all the info, wish I had this before I bought the rifle. Went back to the place where I got it and asked the guy if he knew about what it was and about the ammo issue. He said he did. He never mentioned it to me the time of purchase. He took the rifle back no questions about it. He knows me pretty well and was going to give me my money back. I do business there a lot so I just took a store credit to use later.

[PetahW]

That dealer is certainly an upstanding gentleman - my hat's off to him.

So many dealers are bad-mouthed, that I would suggest you post the name of his business here, even though he might well have advised before the sale that the rifle was a "handloading only" proposition.


FWIW, if you're looking for a Mauser, in a modern chambering that has a higher operating pressure than the original design chambering, I would suggest only looking at "cock-on-opening" Mauser 98's, and forget any "cock-on-closing" earlier Mauser designs.

.

[Moloch]

I don't know, I think it was quite irresponsible to sell this milsurp gun without warning the buyer of the danger of shooting regular ammo through it.

[PetahW]

Maybe - I was cutting the dealer some slack, on the premise that he might have thought the OP a buyer knowledgeable in that area.


.

[FALPhil]

I'm just saying the small ring Mausers were originally chambered in cartridges like 6.5x55 and 7mm mauser, the 7.62x51 has a good bit more pressure than those old cartridges, and commercial ammo is loaded even hotter than the Nato.

Moloch, why would you say that commercial 308 Win ammo is hotter than 7.62x51 NATO?

[gasmandave]

The gun shop owner is a good man, never gouges anyone always fair in his dealings. When I asked him about the rifle if he knew about the ammo issue I got the impression that he just forgot to tell me. I've done business with Lee for about 16 years and he has always been fair. Not to just me but everyone. His name is Lee Barrett and he owns Barretts trading post in Westminster SC.

[tahoe2]

I think when those mausers were converted, it was for 7.62 CETME (or something like that) which was a lower pressure than the NATO stuff.
I believe the CETME round is about 45,000 psi = 37,000 cup which is in the same category as the original 7x57 mauser pressures;
I think the 7.62 NATO/308 Winchester is in the 60,000 psi = 52,000 cup, which is certainly to high for one of those Spanish mauser actions,
it might not blow up, but high pressure use, could set the lugs back or stretch the action and/or chamber.
Someone who knows for sure will chime in.

[emcon5]

Moloch, why would you say that commercial 308 Win ammo is hotter than 7.62x51 NATO?

Because it is.

.308 Win is rated at 62,000 psi.
7.62x51 is rated at 60,200 psi.

Not a lot hotter, but hotter it is.

If it passed headspace, I would not be afraid of it, but I would also reload to middle of the road 300 Savage pressures, which would be on par with the original 7X57 pressure the rifle was built for.

[FALPhil]

Because it is.

.308 Win is rated at 62,000 psi.
7.62x51 is rated at 60,200 psi.

Not a lot hotter, but hotter it is.

The difference between brands of primers. Well within the safety margin. Seriously, if you are worried about a 1800 PSI differential, you have a wall hanger, not a rifle.

[Slamfire]

The difference between brands of primers. Well within the safety margin. Seriously, if you are worried about a 1800 PSI differential, you have a wall hanger, not a rifle.

Yes but, when you are dealing with an early Mauser which was proofed below 308 or 7.62 operating pressures, either reload, or make it a wall hanger.

[emcon5]

The difference between brands of primers. Well within the safety margin. Seriously, if you are worried about a 1800 PSI differential, you have a wall hanger, not a rifle.

OK, but that rifle was built for 7X57, which has a max pressure of 56,565 psi.

So do you want to use ammo that is ~4000PSI (~7%) over the design max, or ~5500PSI (~10%) over the design max?

Me, I would load down to the ~50Kpsi range. Still plenty to kill just about anything in North America.