Survey: How many of y'all have actually had a handload cause a KA-Boom! - Page 2

Clark · June 17, 2001, 11:23 PM

I have worked up loads to see what would give first, the brass or the gun in:
32acp
32sw
7.62x25mm
9x19mm
9x23mm
.357 Sig
38 Special
38sw
40sw
45 acp
.410
7.62x54R
8x57mm

In 9x19 with RP brass in a P11, the faint sign of a case bulge shows up .2 gr before a primer pierces, and another .2 gr higher still is a case failure [kaboom].

Because the case failures are so dangerous and expensive, I would map the threshold of case bulges. With one powder and bullet I would vary the charge and OAL to find the threshold.

An interesting thing came from mapping the threshold. I could see from the slope of the lines that 3N37 was more sensitive to OAL than Power Pistol.

I would recomend examining the brass in a work up to look for the shape of the feed ramp on the case. As soon as this can be seen, you are way past a useful load. You are too close to a kaboom.

40 S&W is amazing in that the case bulges with 5% extra powder, while 9x19 typically at 60% extra.

I think I have had 5 unplanned case failures. It can vary in severity from a hole in the side of the case, to throw the gun away and wipe up the blood.

Charmedlyfe · June 17, 2001, 11:39 PM

Only KB I've ever had was with factory ammo.....

Johnny Guest · June 18, 2001, 11:05 AM

Clark---
Thanks for the input.

Is the variation from first noticible bulge--> Pierced primer-->Case failure, a general average, in a fairly constant progression, regardless of the brand of case?

I know case thickness varies quite a bit by brand, and from caliber to caliber within brands. (I think.) Would the 2/10 grain progression hold equally for, say, Speer cases vs. R-P vs. W-W?

I know what I THINK would be the answer, but, sometimes, logic just doesn't work.

Thanks in advance--
Johnny

Clark · June 18, 2001, 04:35 PM

The primer falling out of a 7.62x25mm or a S&B brass is more than a grain above where Starline has the same problem. 1955 Polish brass gave mean unexpected case failure at fairly low pressuers.

The point at which various 45 acp, 45+P, 45 Super, and 460 Roland brass streches or looses the primer is very close. I have never got a bulged 45 case.

In 9mm, if the RP primed brass has a pierced primer, switching to a magnum primer without reducing a grain will spray the area with parts and a wreck your gun. I know. Going down a grain and working up will end at the same velocity when the case bulges. So the weak RP primer acts as a warning that costs very little in maximum velocity.

So far I have got bulged cases in 32acp, .380, 9x19mm, 357Sig, and 40sw.

Bogie · June 18, 2001, 05:37 PM

Never blew anything up. Had a friend who claims that his Para fired out of battery (he bought it from a now deceased mutual friend who liked to tinker), which then set off the magazine, blowing it out the bottom, cracking the frame. Gun's junk now.

I've popped numerous primers shooting hot loads in a 6PPC.

A case full of V133 (with a 12" drop tube!) won't necessarily pop a primer, but the cases get REAL easy to prime after about 10-15 loadings...

A local shop has a .44 on display - A tyro reloader didn't have any W296 so he substituted the same weight W700 - The top of the cylinder and the top strap are g-o-h-n.

Long Path · June 19, 2001, 11:36 AM

NEW GUN BLOW-UP PICS--

Long Path · June 19, 2001, 11:41 AM

... and a second one....

Clark · June 19, 2001, 05:36 PM

WOW!

I have a CZ52 that looks just like that.

Well, not like a 1911, but a split barrel that wrecked the slide.

I have shot some heavey stuff in a 1911 and I have never had a failure.

I wonder what happened to that 1911. If it was in a work up, I would pay for the data. If it was a powder mix up, I wouldn't learn much.

Jamie Young · June 19, 2001, 06:02 PM

I wonder how often its powder Mix ups and not Double Charges?

Long Path · June 21, 2001, 01:23 AM

Almost utterly impossible in this case-- the cartridge came from a large batch, the rest of which were fine, and all were loaded from a common powder-thrower on a (wonderfully made) RL 550.

Still working on it, Clark.

--L.P.

seadog · June 21, 2001, 09:02 PM

I shot a double charge wadcutter 38 target load out of a Smith Model 28 N frame. Flattened the rear of the case so you could not read the headstamp anymore and the primer fell out...Gun was no trouble at all. Thank GOD it wasn't in a Chiefs Special. I definitely pay attention now when loading small capacity in large cases. Thats the one time I will not progressive reload. I about crapped my undies....

Jamie Young · June 21, 2001, 09:17 PM

I guess the closest I have been to a double charge is when I fired my Uncles O/U 16ga shotgun and both barrels went off at the same time. I thought the gun blew up!!

Clark · June 24, 2001, 11:08 PM

The following loads were tests to make something bad happen. Do not imitate or something bad may happen to you and or your gun.

Get yourself a load book and follow the rules and you won't get hurt. I am pulling a long trigger sting on guns that I am willing to sacrifice.

If I sneak up on a case bulge, I can see the the first signs and back off before the case fails, and kaboom, I have to mail order gun parts.

I have handload worked up [in .1gr increments with a trigger string]
above the max load book rating [SAAMI] in my guns:
9mm...........60% extra powder case bulge*
38 Special ..140% extra powder bend aluminum frame
45 acp .......60% extra powder primer falls out
32 acp ......110% extra powder case bulge
357mag......0~50% extra powder case sticks
32sw .........-6% extra powder breaktop latch stretch
38 sw ........33% extra powder breaktop latch stretch
7.62x25mm ....14% extra powder [C52] splits barrel**
7.62x25mm.....31% extra powder [Tokarev] primer falls out
357 Sig....... 1% extra powder case bulge
40 S&W ........5% extra powder case bulge

* Case bulge is very close [within .4 gr] to case failure which can be
expensive, dangerous, and painful.
** CZ52s can emit extractors at lethal velocities. This gun should be
avoided by over loading experimenters.

bpisler · June 24, 2001, 11:17 PM

Ive never had a KB but i did load some
357mags that after firing 6 i knew
something was wrong.Upon opening the
cylinder 4 primers fell out,i could not
get the spent cases out until i got home
and used a hammer and punch to knock
them out.This was to close for comfort.

Jamie Young · June 24, 2001, 11:56 PM

I had a torn case right at the neck of a .223 round. I didn't crimp the case and I think it may have been a little too long. When I went to pick up my spent cases I noticed it on the ground. I've jammed my Colt and my Mini because of Reloading Mistakes OAL and Case Bulging errors

Don Gwinn · June 25, 2001, 11:01 AM

Sodapop's right--it shouldn't be possible to double-charge if you're paying attention--but it sure is! I had a squib load a few weeks ago in a USP and the only explanation is that I didn't check or overlooked it. If I can overlook a round with no powder (I assume that's what it was) then I could surely do the same with a double charge. I've slowed down a little since then and added another time to check by habit. I'm hoping my reloading mistakes are now out of the way for the next 50 years or so.

snuffy · June 25, 2001, 11:53 AM

I guess everybody is referring to my post about my destroyed .357 blackhawk. Sodapop's comment about "how could anybody not notice a double charge"? I'll say it again, because I may not have been too clear the first time. I was new to loading revolver ammo, so how was I to be able to judge what was a double charge? HS6 is a very dense shotgun powder. It is possible to double charge and have some room left over. NOW I know it was a double charge, but without anything to reference to then, I didn't.

Of course it's not possible to double charge a rifle case while loading full power shells. BUT you have to be carefull when loading plinkers meant for small game.

As far as shotgun loading, goes the same applies there. If you don't watch what you're doing with a progressive press, it's possible to double charge a shell. It becomes real obvious when you try to crimp the shell with a double powder charge in it.

Jamie Young · June 25, 2001, 04:43 PM

The first round I ever reloaded was a Russian 7.62x39 round and I was using a compressed powder with RX7. I got frustrated because I didn't think a Compressed Powder charge really meant smashing down the powder to get a bullet in. Ever since then I've always noticed how much powder was in a case. I reloaded 800rds of .223 on a single stage and my eye balls almost fell out.
Your all talking about reloading on Progressives and If I had one I'd probable blow all my guns up

Clark · July 4, 2001, 12:47 AM

The same warnings as above apply to the new data below:
.380..........60% extra powder recoil spring inadequate
410 all brass200% extra powder .452 bullet splits choke

Turk · July 4, 2001, 09:54 AM

Mine was a Iver Johnson M-1 Carbine with a slam fire. I believe it was from a high primer on a reload. After that I check for high primers.

When the carbine slam fired it was like being hit in the face with a sledge hammer. Thank God I was wearing shooting glasses got a lot of small something in my face.

It blew the operating off and bent the rail up slightly and blew the magazine out and apart of the rifle. I sent the rifle back to IJ and they repaired it and I still shot it today.

It was an attention getter.

Turk

Poodleshooter · July 5, 2001, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Your all talking about reloading on Progressives and If I had one I'd probable blow all my guns up

Yeah, sometimes I wonder how all these silly progressive loaders keep from blowing their hands off

VAdoublegunner · July 7, 2001, 01:55 AM

Yep, I've seen the results of one in a Glock 36 owned by a friend. The handload was a pretty standard W231 load and Rainier leadsafe 230s. I posted a comment about it on a thread about case failure in a Glock M-20 about six weeks ago. Here are some photos:

VAdoublegunner · July 7, 2001, 01:57 AM

and another......

blades67 · July 7, 2001, 02:22 AM

No ka-Booms to date. I endevor to keep this record.

Kermit · July 7, 2001, 07:09 PM

I did it w/ my Glock 21c. I was 92 rounds into the 1st 100 I had made when KABOOM!

Made sure I had all my digits, then got me some 1st aid. The mag release blew out of the grip and out. The right side took out a small chunk of flesh as it shot across the range. The mag was in pieces, the trigger had been sheered off, all the internals were gone, & the ramp on the barrel had been partially torn off. Hands felt like they had been slapped VERY hard with a metal ruler, had some minor burns and the flesh wound on right hand.
Got gun back from Glock...I paid for new barrel, the replaced everything else - even threw in a hi-cap. Sold the gun because I never felt comfy w/ it afterward.
The load, as best as we can tell, was a double charge. Needless to say, I am one careful M-effer when I reload now. 3000 rounds later, all's well.

June 18, 2001, 11:05 AM	#28
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	KB Threshold--Vary by Case Brand? Clark--- Thanks for the input. Is the variation from first noticible bulge--> Pierced primer-->Case failure, a general average, in a fairly constant progression, regardless of the brand of case? I know case thickness varies quite a bit by brand, and from caliber to caliber within brands. (I think.) Would the 2/10 grain progression hold equally for, say, Speer cases vs. R-P vs. W-W? I know what I THINK would be the answer, but, sometimes, logic just doesn't work. Thanks in advance-- Johnny

June 18, 2001, 05:37 PM	#30
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Never blew anything up. Had a friend who claims that his Para fired out of battery (he bought it from a now deceased mutual friend who liked to tinker), which then set off the magazine, blowing it out the bottom, cracking the frame. Gun's junk now. I've popped numerous primers shooting hot loads in a 6PPC. A case full of V133 (with a 12" drop tube!) won't necessarily pop a primer, but the cases get REAL easy to prime after about 10-15 loadings... A local shop has a .44 on display - A tyro reloader didn't have any W296 so he substituted the same weight W700 - The top of the cylinder and the top strap are g-o-h-n. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

June 19, 2001, 06:02 PM	#34
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	I wonder how often its powder Mix ups and not Double Charges? __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

June 21, 2001, 01:23 AM	#35
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	Almost utterly impossible in this case-- the cartridge came from a large batch, the rest of which were fine, and all were loaded from a common powder-thrower on a (wonderfully made) RL 550. Still working on it, Clark. --L.P. __________________ "Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________

June 24, 2001, 11:17 PM	#39
bpisler Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2001 Location: phoenix az Posts: 375	Ive never had a KB but i did load some 357mags that after firing 6 i knew something was wrong.Upon opening the cylinder 4 primers fell out,i could not get the spent cases out until i got home and used a hammer and punch to knock them out.This was to close for comfort. __________________ 'Fear the goverment that fears your guns'

June 17, 2001, 11:23 PM	#26
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have worked up loads to see what would give first, the brass or the gun in: 32acp 32sw 7.62x25mm 9x19mm 9x23mm .357 Sig 38 Special 38sw 40sw 45 acp .410 7.62x54R 8x57mm In 9x19 with RP brass in a P11, the faint sign of a case bulge shows up .2 gr before a primer pierces, and another .2 gr higher still is a case failure [kaboom]. Because the case failures are so dangerous and expensive, I would map the threshold of case bulges. With one powder and bullet I would vary the charge and OAL to find the threshold. An interesting thing came from mapping the threshold. I could see from the slope of the lines that 3N37 was more sensitive to OAL than Power Pistol. I would recomend examining the brass in a work up to look for the shape of the feed ramp on the case. As soon as this can be seen, you are way past a useful load. You are too close to a kaboom. 40 S&W is amazing in that the case bulges with 5% extra powder, while 9x19 typically at 60% extra. I think I have had 5 unplanned case failures. It can vary in severity from a hole in the side of the case, to throw the gun away and wipe up the blood.

June 17, 2001, 11:39 PM	#27
Charmedlyfe Junior member Join Date: October 11, 2000 Location: SC Posts: 799	Only KB I've ever had was with factory ammo.....

June 18, 2001, 04:35 PM	#29
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The primer falling out of a 7.62x25mm or a S&B brass is more than a grain above where Starline has the same problem. 1955 Polish brass gave mean unexpected case failure at fairly low pressuers. The point at which various 45 acp, 45+P, 45 Super, and 460 Roland brass streches or looses the primer is very close. I have never got a bulged 45 case. In 9mm, if the RP primed brass has a pierced primer, switching to a magnum primer without reducing a grain will spray the area with parts and a wreck your gun. I know. Going down a grain and working up will end at the same velocity when the case bulges. So the weak RP primer acts as a warning that costs very little in maximum velocity. So far I have got bulged cases in 32acp, .380, 9x19mm, 357Sig, and 40sw.

June 19, 2001, 05:36 PM	#33
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	WOW! I have a CZ52 that looks just like that. Well, not like a 1911, but a split barrel that wrecked the slide. I have shot some heavey stuff in a 1911 and I have never had a failure. I wonder what happened to that 1911. If it was in a work up, I would pay for the data. If it was a powder mix up, I wouldn't learn much.

June 21, 2001, 09:02 PM	#36
seadog Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 287	I shot a double charge wadcutter 38 target load out of a Smith Model 28 N frame. Flattened the rear of the case so you could not read the headstamp anymore and the primer fell out...Gun was no trouble at all. Thank GOD it wasn't in a Chiefs Special. I definitely pay attention now when loading small capacity in large cases. Thats the one time I will not progressive reload. I about crapped my undies....

June 21, 2001, 09:17 PM	#37
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	I guess the closest I have been to a double charge is when I fired my Uncles O/U 16ga shotgun and both barrels went off at the same time. I thought the gun blew up!!

June 24, 2001, 11:08 PM	#38
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The following loads were tests to make something bad happen. Do not imitate or something bad may happen to you and or your gun. Get yourself a load book and follow the rules and you won't get hurt. I am pulling a long trigger sting on guns that I am willing to sacrifice. If I sneak up on a case bulge, I can see the the first signs and back off before the case fails, and kaboom, I have to mail order gun parts. I have handload worked up [in .1gr increments with a trigger string] above the max load book rating [SAAMI] in my guns: 9mm...........60% extra powder case bulge* 38 Special ..140% extra powder bend aluminum frame 45 acp .......60% extra powder primer falls out 32 acp ......110% extra powder case bulge 357mag......0~50% extra powder case sticks 32sw .........-6% extra powder breaktop latch stretch 38 sw ........33% extra powder breaktop latch stretch 7.62x25mm ....14% extra powder [C52] splits barrel** 7.62x25mm.....31% extra powder [Tokarev] primer falls out 357 Sig....... 1% extra powder case bulge 40 S&W ........5% extra powder case bulge * Case bulge is very close [within .4 gr] to case failure which can be expensive, dangerous, and painful. ** CZ52s can emit extractors at lethal velocities. This gun should be avoided by over loading experimenters.

June 24, 2001, 11:56 PM	#40
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	I had a torn case right at the neck of a .223 round. I didn't crimp the case and I think it may have been a little too long. When I went to pick up my spent cases I noticed it on the ground. I've jammed my Colt and my Mini because of Reloading Mistakes OAL and Case Bulging errors

June 25, 2001, 11:01 AM	#41
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	Sodapop's right--it shouldn't be possible to double-charge if you're paying attention--but it sure is! I had a squib load a few weeks ago in a USP and the only explanation is that I didn't check or overlooked it. If I can overlook a round with no powder (I assume that's what it was) then I could surely do the same with a double charge. I've slowed down a little since then and added another time to check by habit. I'm hoping my reloading mistakes are now out of the way for the next 50 years or so.

June 25, 2001, 11:53 AM	#42
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	I guess everybody is referring to my post about my destroyed .357 blackhawk. Sodapop's comment about "how could anybody not notice a double charge"? I'll say it again, because I may not have been too clear the first time. I was new to loading revolver ammo, so how was I to be able to judge what was a double charge? HS6 is a very dense shotgun powder. It is possible to double charge and have some room left over. NOW I know it was a double charge, but without anything to reference to then, I didn't. Of course it's not possible to double charge a rifle case while loading full power shells. BUT you have to be carefull when loading plinkers meant for small game. As far as shotgun loading, goes the same applies there. If you don't watch what you're doing with a progressive press, it's possible to double charge a shell. It becomes real obvious when you try to crimp the shell with a double powder charge in it. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

June 25, 2001, 04:43 PM	#43
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	The first round I ever reloaded was a Russian 7.62x39 round and I was using a compressed powder with RX7. I got frustrated because I didn't think a Compressed Powder charge really meant smashing down the powder to get a bullet in. Ever since then I've always noticed how much powder was in a case. I reloaded 800rds of .223 on a single stage and my eye balls almost fell out. Your all talking about reloading on Progressives and If I had one I'd probable blow all my guns up

July 4, 2001, 12:47 AM	#44
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The same warnings as above apply to the new data below: .380..........60% extra powder recoil spring inadequate 410 all brass200% extra powder .452 bullet splits choke

July 4, 2001, 09:54 AM	#45
Turk Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2000 Location: USA Posts: 517	Mine was a Iver Johnson M-1 Carbine with a slam fire. I believe it was from a high primer on a reload. After that I check for high primers. When the carbine slam fired it was like being hit in the face with a sledge hammer. Thank God I was wearing shooting glasses got a lot of small something in my face. It blew the operating off and bent the rail up slightly and blew the magazine out and apart of the rifle. I sent the rifle back to IJ and they repaired it and I still shot it today. It was an attention getter. Turk

July 7, 2001, 02:22 AM	#49
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	No ka-Booms to date. I endevor to keep this record. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

July 7, 2001, 07:09 PM	#50
Kermit Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,020	I did it w/ my Glock 21c. I was 92 rounds into the 1st 100 I had made when KABOOM! Made sure I had all my digits, then got me some 1st aid. The mag release blew out of the grip and out. The right side took out a small chunk of flesh as it shot across the range. The mag was in pieces, the trigger had been sheered off, all the internals were gone, & the ramp on the barrel had been partially torn off. Hands felt like they had been slapped VERY hard with a metal ruler, had some minor burns and the flesh wound on right hand. Got gun back from Glock...I paid for new barrel, the replaced everything else - even threw in a hi-cap. Sold the gun because I never felt comfy w/ it afterward. The load, as best as we can tell, was a double charge. Needless to say, I am one careful M-effer when I reload now. 3000 rounds later, all's well.