What happened? Seating die tore case...

ArkieVol · September 17, 2009, 10:25 PM

I'm new to reloading but have successfully loaded about 700 rounds of .38 spl.; 158g LSWC, 125g SJHP, 125g copper plated, and fired over 100 of them through two different guns with no problems. Today, however, I decided to load some 148g wadcutters for the first time and immediately ran into a problem.

Using RCBS carbide die set and was attempting to set my OAL for wadcutters...Hornady .358, 148g HBWC, OAL 1.180. I didn't change my crimp setting (which was set light for minimum loads) and put a wadcutter into the slightly belled practice case to set the OAL. I ran it into the die two or three times, adjusting it deeper each time. The last time I lowered the cartridge, the wadcutter was still in the case but the top 1/8th of an inch of the case was missing...stuck in the die.

Like an earlier poster, I have only the internet and books to rely on so I would appreciate any help you can spare.
Thanks,
Jack

1. What did I do wrong?
2. Any way to remove the stuck piece of brass other than sending it to factory?
3. Would it be easier to just buy new die?

The attached photo shows two previously loaded rounds, empty belled case, and the wadcutter and in the torn case.

Kyo · September 17, 2009, 11:06 PM

maybe the die can't handle wadcutters. I have never loaded them but I don't see the point in having them either. See if you can take off the excess with a shirt or something. Thats what I do with my reloads when I see the lead on the sides for any reason

'Borg · September 18, 2009, 02:59 AM

Are you sure it's not just the lead overlapping on the case?
That's what it looks like.
After belling a case, sometimes there is a small ridge on the inside of the mouth that will shave lead and make it overlap.
Have also seen where if you belled the case out too far that when you run the case and bullet up into the die, the bell gets squeezed down to where it shaves lead if there's a ridge.
Borg
ETA did you find the piece of brass that "ripped off"?

impalacustom · September 18, 2009, 04:03 AM

The case isn't torn, it looks like it is crimping it before it seats the bullet and therefore shaving the lead off the bullet and putting it on the outside of the caseing. Did your dies come with a wadcutter seater?, it is flat instead of cone shaped. That is what happend, you had to screw down your die so far that it was crimping before fully seating the bullet.

Put the different seater in the die and then start from scratch and seat the bullet to the proper length, then back the seater out about an 1/8th of a turn and screw the whole seating die down about an 1/8 of a turn, that should get you your crimp you want and your OAL length. Check your length after your happy with the crimp though.

No need to buy a new die as there isn't any brass stuck or torn off.

brickeyee · September 18, 2009, 12:54 PM

Your flare was not adequate, and seating and crimping wad cutters at the same time rarely works well.

The bullets are VERY soft.

You might want to look into a Lyman 'M' die for flaring.
They are not as hard on brass as the stock die extending case life.

rjrivero · September 18, 2009, 01:05 PM

I agree with all the above. IF you want to convince yourself of it, use your bullet puller and pull that wad cutter out of that case. You'll see it was crimped prior to seating all the way.

If you want to try to get the seating and crimping in one dye, then back off the crimp, and adjust the seating FIRST. Then add the crimp after the seating function is set.

griz · September 18, 2009, 01:18 PM

As others mentioned it didn't tear the case, it just squished the bullet over the crimped case mouth. If you scrape the edge of the bullet you will find the case.

Two ways to prevent that.

1. Seat and then crimp as different steps.
2. If you want to seat and crimp at the same time, first adjust the seating depth, then adjust the crimp. The only way I have found to do this is to back off the seating die so it doesn't crimp at all. then carefully seat a bullet to the correct depth. Back off the seating stem so it doesn't touch the bullet at all, then set the body of the die so it crimps the right amount. Then with the ram up and the round into the crimp position, screw down on the seating stem to contact the bullet again.

I usually keep a dummy round made up with my most used lead bullets to make the second method less of a pain. Jacketed bullets are less forgiving so I always seat/crimp them as two steps.

ArkieVol · September 18, 2009, 01:21 PM

Thanks guys, you all nailed it. The case wasn't torn. I was seeing some tiny brass shavings in the seater head and, with the overlapping lead, thought part of the case was missing.

I started all over and everything worked fine...wadcutter seated properly with no lead shaving. I was using the correct/flat seater but apparently was indeed crimping before seating fully.

I'll keep playing with it and keep learning. It's nice to have a place to come to for good advice and friendly help.

Thanks again,
Jack

TEDDY · September 18, 2009, 01:24 PM

I crimp HBWC in in the top band.for revolver.in the S&W 52 flush with case.
actually they were made for the S&W 52.lyman does not have the wc listed any more.
they are quite a projectile if reversed.

BigJakeJ1s · September 18, 2009, 07:09 PM

When adjusting the seating depth, you need to back out the die so it does not crimp. You crimped the bullet the first time you ran it up into the die, then continued to try to seat it deeper even after it was crimped. Once you back the die out, adjust the seater screw to give you the seating depth you want (without crimping!). Then, back the seating stem out, and start screwing the die body in until it crimps the way you want it (without seating the bullet deeper). Once there, set the lock ring, and then advance the seating stem down until it contacts the top of the bullet (by feel). Lock the seating stem (if it does lock, some don't). Then you are done.

Sure it takes a little longer to adjust when seating and crimping together, but it takes much less time to reload when you do both in one step (assuming you are using a single stage). Taper crimping is a little trickier for me to get set right, but roll crimping into the cannelure is pretty easy once you get the hang of it.

Andy

markrsims · September 19, 2009, 07:23 PM

You may want to check your primer seating too. It looks like the primer on the empty in the picture is a bit "high".

flashhole · September 20, 2009, 11:41 AM

Interesting thread; are the wad cutter bullets the same diameter as the other bullets in the picture?

BigJakeJ1s · September 20, 2009, 05:48 PM

I don't think it had anything to do with the bullet diameter, but simply that he was continuing to seat the bullet deeper on successive passes, after it had already been crimped in the first pass.

Andy

Christchild · September 20, 2009, 06:07 PM

The primers LOOK like they're seated too deep.

Me personally, I strive for 0.004" (4 thousandth's) below flush in all cartridges. Somewhere in the range of 0.003" and 0.005" below flush is best.

**Unclenick** · September 20, 2009, 06:40 PM

Once the crimp caught the bullet the seater stem upset the metal to a larger diameter that then flowed out over the bullet as further pressure was applied.

This is an illustration of why separate seating and crimping are easier on the bullet.

If you don't want to get a separate crimping die (after which, you always use the seater die too far from the shell holder to cause any kind of crimp, and only use it to put the bullet where you want it), then you need to minimize the travel of a soft bullet like that during crimping and seating. A light target load using a wadcutter needs only a light crimp anyway. The way I used to work with those dies is the same as Big Jake described.

ArkieVol · September 21, 2009, 04:11 AM

Here's a finished round. Hornady 148g wadcutter seated 1.180 with 2.6g Bullseye. No crimp with seating die this time, light crimp with Lee factory crimp die...first time I've tried the Lee die but seems to look ok.

To answer an earlier question, all bullets are .358 dia..

Haven't fired any yet.

Look ok to you guys?
Jack

Sport45 · September 21, 2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christchild

The primers LOOK like they're seated too deep.

IMHO there is no such thing as seating primers too deep. They should all be set firmly to the bottom of the primer pocket. The pocket depth and primer height dictate the seating depth. Not the finesse of the operator.

chris in va · September 22, 2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

IMHO there is no such thing as seating primers too deep

I have to interject a bit here. I'm brand new to reloading, having just completed some 9mm and I agree about the primer setting it's own depth. But I did have some issues with shotshells that had primers set too deep, and half of them wouldn't go off with my Mossberg 500.

Just a thought.

Sport45 · September 23, 2009, 07:26 AM

If the primers go in too far it's because the pocket is too deep. Not because you pushed them in wrong. I've never loaded shotgun so I don't know anything about those, but assume the same principle applies.

ballardw · September 30, 2009, 04:04 AM

Quote:

BigJakeJ1s wrote:
I don't think it had anything to do with the bullet diameter, but simply that he was continuing to seat the bullet deeper on successive passes, after it had already been crimped in the first pass.

I think that some of the HBWC actually do end up with a bit of diameter difference. They are intended for low pressure loads and the hollow base expands to create a tight gas seal. With that said, I do agree with the diagnosis.

Also, depending on how many cast bullets have been run through the seating die and plug, it may be time to clean out the die as lube and such can build up making the settings a bit inconsistent. Depending on the bullet maker I need to do clean the die about every 700 rounds when loading 38 HBWC.

September 17, 2009, 11:06 PM	#2
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	maybe the die can't handle wadcutters. I have never loaded them but I don't see the point in having them either. See if you can take off the excess with a shirt or something. Thats what I do with my reloads when I see the lead on the sides for any reason __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

September 18, 2009, 01:21 PM	#8
ArkieVol Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Arkansas Posts: 86	Thanks guys, you all nailed it. The case wasn't torn. I was seeing some tiny brass shavings in the seater head and, with the overlapping lead, thought part of the case was missing. I started all over and everything worked fine...wadcutter seated properly with no lead shaving. I was using the correct/flat seater but apparently was indeed crimping before seating fully. I'll keep playing with it and keep learning. It's nice to have a place to come to for good advice and friendly help. Thanks again, Jack __________________ Pay attention...it pays to win

September 18, 2009, 01:24 PM	#9
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	HBWC I crimp HBWC in in the top band.for revolver.in the S&W 52 flush with case. actually they were made for the S&W 52.lyman does not have the wc listed any more. they are quite a projectile if reversed.

September 20, 2009, 11:41 AM	#12
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Interesting thread; are the wad cutter bullets the same diameter as the other bullets in the picture? __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

September 20, 2009, 06:07 PM	#14
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	I agree... The primers LOOK like they're seated too deep. Me personally, I strive for 0.004" (4 thousandth's) below flush in all cartridges. Somewhere in the range of 0.003" and 0.005" below flush is best.

September 18, 2009, 02:59 AM	#3
'Borg Junior Member Join Date: September 6, 2009 Posts: 8	Are you sure it's not just the lead overlapping on the case? That's what it looks like. After belling a case, sometimes there is a small ridge on the inside of the mouth that will shave lead and make it overlap. Have also seen where if you belled the case out too far that when you run the case and bullet up into the die, the bell gets squeezed down to where it shaves lead if there's a ridge. Borg ETA did you find the piece of brass that "ripped off"?

September 18, 2009, 04:03 AM	#4
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	The case isn't torn, it looks like it is crimping it before it seats the bullet and therefore shaving the lead off the bullet and putting it on the outside of the caseing. Did your dies come with a wadcutter seater?, it is flat instead of cone shaped. That is what happend, you had to screw down your die so far that it was crimping before fully seating the bullet. Put the different seater in the die and then start from scratch and seat the bullet to the proper length, then back the seater out about an 1/8th of a turn and screw the whole seating die down about an 1/8 of a turn, that should get you your crimp you want and your OAL length. Check your length after your happy with the crimp though. No need to buy a new die as there isn't any brass stuck or torn off.

September 18, 2009, 12:54 PM	#5
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	Your flare was not adequate, and seating and crimping wad cutters at the same time rarely works well. The bullets are VERY soft. You might want to look into a Lyman 'M' die for flaring. They are not as hard on brass as the stock die extending case life.

September 18, 2009, 01:05 PM	#6
rjrivero Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 1,399	I agree with all the above. IF you want to convince yourself of it, use your bullet puller and pull that wad cutter out of that case. You'll see it was crimped prior to seating all the way. If you want to try to get the seating and crimping in one dye, then back off the crimp, and adjust the seating FIRST. Then add the crimp after the seating function is set.

September 18, 2009, 01:18 PM	#7
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	As others mentioned it didn't tear the case, it just squished the bullet over the crimped case mouth. If you scrape the edge of the bullet you will find the case. Two ways to prevent that. 1. Seat and then crimp as different steps. 2. If you want to seat and crimp at the same time, first adjust the seating depth, then adjust the crimp. The only way I have found to do this is to back off the seating die so it doesn't crimp at all. then carefully seat a bullet to the correct depth. Back off the seating stem so it doesn't touch the bullet at all, then set the body of the die so it crimps the right amount. Then with the ram up and the round into the crimp position, screw down on the seating stem to contact the bullet again. I usually keep a dummy round made up with my most used lead bullets to make the second method less of a pain. Jacketed bullets are less forgiving so I always seat/crimp them as two steps.

September 18, 2009, 07:09 PM	#10
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	When adjusting the seating depth, you need to back out the die so it does not crimp. You crimped the bullet the first time you ran it up into the die, then continued to try to seat it deeper even after it was crimped. Once you back the die out, adjust the seater screw to give you the seating depth you want (without crimping!). Then, back the seating stem out, and start screwing the die body in until it crimps the way you want it (without seating the bullet deeper). Once there, set the lock ring, and then advance the seating stem down until it contacts the top of the bullet (by feel). Lock the seating stem (if it does lock, some don't). Then you are done. Sure it takes a little longer to adjust when seating and crimping together, but it takes much less time to reload when you do both in one step (assuming you are using a single stage). Taper crimping is a little trickier for me to get set right, but roll crimping into the cannelure is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Andy

September 19, 2009, 07:23 PM	#11
markrsims Junior Member Join Date: September 19, 2009 Posts: 8	You may want to check your primer seating too. It looks like the primer on the empty in the picture is a bit "high".

September 20, 2009, 05:48 PM	#13
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	I don't think it had anything to do with the bullet diameter, but simply that he was continuing to seat the bullet deeper on successive passes, after it had already been crimped in the first pass. Andy

September 20, 2009, 06:40 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Once the crimp caught the bullet the seater stem upset the metal to a larger diameter that then flowed out over the bullet as further pressure was applied. This is an illustration of why separate seating and crimping are easier on the bullet. If you don't want to get a separate crimping die (after which, you always use the seater die too far from the shell holder to cause any kind of crimp, and only use it to put the bullet where you want it), then you need to minimize the travel of a soft bullet like that during crimping and seating. A light target load using a wadcutter needs only a light crimp anyway. The way I used to work with those dies is the same as Big Jake described. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 23, 2009, 07:26 AM	#19
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	If the primers go in too far it's because the pocket is too deep. Not because you pushed them in wrong. I've never loaded shotgun so I don't know anything about those, but assume the same principle applies. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

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