Regarding robberies...

GaruKim · July 25, 2005, 11:43 PM

Evening Gentlemen,
Living in California,

I understand the gun laws here pretty well for a 19 year old. One scenerio does have a huge ? mark, so if we may begin the show,
You wake up in the night and hear your car alarm go off, grab your shotty and walk out just to inspect what might be happening. VrooOM, you just realized that a guy just hot wired your car, ready to take off... now this is the question.... I know you can't blow his head off right there for starting your car but WHAT IF you made it so he endangered your life. Ex, he started the car and you walked in front of it pointing your barrel to his head DARING him to gas it. Yes, I just made the problem a little worse but my car is also my baby... Please excuse the fact that I might get hit after I shoot him, I just want to know in a court of law, would I be ok because I walked in front of the car and shot the robber due to "endangerment" from him. Rest in Peace to that robber....

Twycross · July 26, 2005, 12:12 AM

Hmm. Not sure. I checked Packing.org, and you can shoot someone "When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony,...". So I guess in theory, you would be justified, but it will probably not look good to a jury that you "unnecessarily escalated the situation". But then again, I am not a legal expert.

carebear · July 26, 2005, 12:20 AM

One bad thing to do is post hypotheticals then carry them out.

I'm not sure you'd be in the wrong to try and stop someone from driving away with your car by blocking them in with your body (I would hope not), but if you even HINT you did it to provoke a shootable response you've just blown your presumption of innocence in the confrontation.

Similar to egging on a non-violent confrontation to justify a draw. You don't have to retreat (maybe in Cali you do) but there's a thick line between standing one's ground and picking a fight.

GaruKim · July 26, 2005, 12:38 AM

TWYCROSS and CAREBEAR,
Thanks for the info.

kojak · July 26, 2005, 04:05 AM

Take a .357 magnum and make a warning shout into the ground. Either muzzle flash and bang will stop him or not. If not there's nothing else I would do. At least he will know you let him go at your own free will and that he could have been dead as well.

shield20 · July 26, 2005, 07:00 AM

Carefull - this is NOT a robbery - which is forcible stealing. This is larceny (grand larceny possibly) and is NOT a shootable action.
AFTER you point your shotty(?) at him and he drives at you it becomes something else. How it escalated to that point will be investigated - hopefully you could explain it a bit different then you proposed, and hopefully after you shoot at him and possibly hit him, your baby won't go careening into traffic or some innocent civilians because you are responsible for what happens when it does. If you miss and he runs YOU over - you are the dead victim - over a car.

Call the cops - let them handle it.

CyberSEAL · July 26, 2005, 07:29 AM

They would probably fry you in California, however here in Virginia they'd give you a little citizen's medal you could wear around...

CyberSEAL · July 26, 2005, 07:36 AM

Quote:

This is larceny (grand larceny possibly) and is NOT a shootable action.

Uhh, stealing the car is grand larceny, if the driver tries to run him over, as in the scenario he is depicting, it's now a deadly assault.

Tylden · July 26, 2005, 08:28 AM

I"m not sure about California laws, but here in Kentucky you'd get awarded with deluxe accomodations at the grey bar hotel for an extended stay. If you set him up to endanger you, then you would be the aggressor. You had the option of avoiding being endangered so therefore that would have been the proper course of action (at least legally).
As far as warning shots, that is not a smart move either. Kentucky law calls that wanton endangerment I believe. One more thing to consider, unless you are shooting slugs, I'm not sure you'd be able to penetrate a car windshield and still make the kill with a shotgun....I could be wrong here, but just my feelings on it.

carebear · July 26, 2005, 11:16 AM

Warning shots pretty much a no-no here as well.

Deadly force is designed to be used to stop, not warn.

shield20 · July 26, 2005, 11:37 AM

Cyber - uhhh, that is what I said. Depending of course on the value of his car (in NY anyway).

Him putting himself in front of the car aiming/prepared to shoot someone comitting larceny - so now is the perp committing assault or self defense in driving at him?

Not sure in California. In NY...

A person may use physical force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of larceny

...except that he may use deadly physical force for such purposes only when he reasonably believes that:

(a) The offense committed by such person was:

(i) a felony or an attempt to commit a felony involving the use or attempted use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or...

now in NY , grand larceny IS a felony, but the BG wasn't using force till our hero...forced the issue. This will be investigated - in CA?? Good luck!

GaruKim · July 27, 2005, 12:26 AM

I'm very pleased with the replies, learning a lot definitely. I guess from all the info you guys have posted, I would definitely reconsider my actions in this situation. Good to know there's people out there who put in there two cents, thanks guys.

R1145 · July 27, 2005, 12:55 AM

What happens when it turns out you shot a 12-year old kid out for a joy-ride?

Not that he didn't have it coming, of course, and legally it would be irrelevent, but politically, depending on what race you are and where you live, it could make you a candidate for persecution (and prosecution) by some DA who's running for Mayor next election.

Plus the civil lawsuit his dirtbag parents will hit you with...

I'm not an attorney, but I think you've got the letter of the law covered, but depending on some variables, you may be on thin ice. Stealing a car is a felony. Self-defense outside the home generally requires you to retreat, if possible. However, you are allowed to use lethal force to protect a life.

Make sure you get hit by the car.

Seriously, avoid showing a gun unless you actually use it, and avoid using a gun literally until "gravest extreme".

Get LoJack.

Mike in VA · July 28, 2005, 09:19 AM

Shooting someone over a car is generally bad ju-ju. even if you're justified, it leaves you open for a lot of [expensive] crap & aggravation you probably don't need. Keep your insurance up, get a LoJack, call the cops.

I know it's "your baby", but ultimately, it's just a car, it can be replaced; and while the emotional appeal of removing one more scumbag has its appeal, it really isn't your job, and no good deed goes unpunished, if you know hwat I mean.

bclark1 · July 28, 2005, 10:21 AM

if your cars your baby why would you want to ventilate it? you might get it recovered in a better condition than you'd put it in, particularly using a shotgun. speed holes only make cars faster on TV.

Rickstir · July 28, 2005, 03:48 PM

"My car is my baby"

Get over it. There is another one like it somewhere close.

Do you really want to shoot a human being over such a trivial matter?

While not a dime a dozen, cars can be replaced. Maybe even with something better. You life (either dead or in jail for a long, long time) cannot be. You live in CA, and they are very gun un-freindly. Better for you to put your values into another perspective.

rnovi · July 28, 2005, 05:05 PM

Ahh, but would it be permissable to shoot out the tires of your own car to prevent the perp from driving away?

I know you could slash your own tires, assuming you were close enough...but pulling a firearm literally changes everything...

Double Naught Spy · July 28, 2005, 10:21 PM

Quote:

WHAT IF you made it so he endangered your life. Ex, he started the car and you walked in front of it pointing your barrel to his head DARING him to gas it.

Well, in regard to self preservation, what you are suggesting is just plain stupid. Intentionally forcing a situation to make it dangerous for you just does not make sense - not from a self preservation perspective or from a tactical perspective.

What is really troubling is that you are assuming that once you force the situation into a lethal confrontation where your life is endangered, that you will be victorious in the outcome. You are assuming that your gun will function properly throughout the conflict, that you will land shots on target, that the caliber used will produce the desired effect, and that in the process of dying, that the bad guy doesn't still manage to mash down on the gas and drive right over you.

There are too many stories where folks have guns that do not manage to function as needed at a critical time and even if they have the ability to clear the problem, they may not have the time to clear the problem fast enough to preclude the bad guy(s) from being able to take advantage of the malfunction and confront you as if you are virtually unarmed, save for the pistol-shaped rock in your hand.

S.E.R.T.SGT · July 29, 2005, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Take a .357 magnum and make a warning shout into the ground. Either muzzle flash and bang will stop him or not. If not there's nothing else I would do. At least he will know you let him go at your own free will and that he could have been dead as well.

Hmm, not trying to "rock the boat" on this one, but I would definitely recommend you NOT do this. There are many reasons why a "warning shot" is not a good idea, first and foremost the fact that there is the potential of the bullet hitting a potential innocent bystander. I would heartily not recommend this...just my .02 worth though.

kennybs plbg · July 29, 2005, 01:11 AM

More NYS Penal Law: #35-30

4. A private person acting on his own account may use physical force,
other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the
extent that he reasonably believes such to be necessary to effect an
arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person whom he
reasonably believes to have committed an offense and who in fact has
committed such offense; and he may use deadly physical force for such
purpose when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to:
(a) Defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes
to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force; or
(b) Effect the arrest of a person who has committed murder,
manslaughter in the first degree, robbery, forcible rape or forcible
sodomy and who is in immediate flight therefrom.

kenny b

625 · July 29, 2005, 09:31 AM

It's sad that legal ramifications even have to be discussed. If someone were stealing someone else's car, which may be their only means of getting to and from work, you should be able to do just about anything you want to the thief other than killing him. (A good a$$ kicking would be best) Standing in front of a car that has been started by a thief is a BAD idea. Puts you both in a bad situation. If the thief is breaking into your house/apartment, then deadly force can be used, PERIOD, no ifs, ands or buts.
If corrupt lawyers and judges didn't run our legal system, I think there would be FAR fewer criminals with an added bonus of people not worrying if someone is going to sue them if they protect their property and family. Some common sense would be nice! Ok, I'm done with my rant....for now.

jrklaus · July 29, 2005, 09:49 AM

625, it is true that horse-stealing in the Old West was a capital crime for much the same reason you note that a car may be one's only means of transportation to work; if you stole a man's horse between water holes, you were literally condemning him to death. While our society wouldn't look at things that way now, I'm not certain the Old West folks didn't have it right...?

When you get right down to it, a government based upon laws must be a government based upon the rights to property. Property is the only thing that is tangible. Murder is against the law because it unlawfully deprives you of your life, which is your property, etc.

shield20 · July 29, 2005, 11:09 AM

You can use physical force to stop or detain someone who has committed an offense (&/or crime), so no problem there punching the BG in the side of the head.
Actually, a civilian in NY has quite alot of leeway in making "arrests", as Kenny posted.

Dwight55 · July 29, 2005, 08:52 PM

I have no doubt that if I came out and saw someone stealing one of my vehicles, . . . and if I brought out my shotgun, . . . it is a Beretta semi-auto with #4 shot, 00 buck, then slugs:

The first round would take out a rear tire of my van or truck, . . . front tire on my wife's car, . . . letting the bg know I am serious about him not taking my vehicle, . . .

Tires are cheaper than doing without my vehicle while I wait for some LEO to find it.

I kinda figure that then the only thing I will have to do until the sheriff gets there is stay upwind of the driveway, . . . cause as the bg is running out the driveway, . . . something will probably be running down his leg that will not have a pleasant aroma

I also gotta believe that I will probably never know who it was, . . . unless of course he has a heart attack while sprinting out my 600 foot gravel driveway, then 1/2 mile to the nearest good highway. He'll mark my place off his list of likely places to rob.

May God bless,
Dwight

WOD · July 29, 2005, 09:54 PM

Quote:

""My car is my baby"

Get over it. There is another one like it somewhere close.

Do you really want to shoot a human being over such a trivial matter?

While not a dime a dozen, cars can be replaced. Maybe even with something better. You life (either dead or in jail for a long, long time) cannot be.

This is the kind of liberal mindset that has unfortunately crippled our society. The right question should be asked of the THIEF, "Do you really want to die for this car?". Why is it that we always put pressure and responsibility on the victim. If more people were to die trying to steal cars, I could assure you the auto theft rate would dramatically decline.

Just recently in Oregon, our police force just went through a long drawn out court battle in a case where a police officer shot a crack head by the name of Kendra James who tried to speed away during a traffic stop. The officer who was half way inside the victims car trying to get her out of the car and she continued to accelerate. Fearing for his life, he shot her and killed her. The family sued for $10million, but fortunately in this case they LOST. The liberals ask, "could the officer have acted differently like using his mace instead of his gun?" when the question should be to the victim "are you #$#cking stupid, what part of stop the car do you not understand?" In this case the victim would still be alive had she not try to elude police and endanger them.

I bring this case up because it is here to warn you not to do what is JUST and RIGHT because you will be put on trial, and you will not have a well seasoned LEO lawyer to defend you. This case could have gone either way for the LEO even though he was in the right, because their was alot of public outrage towards the police believe it or not.

To all of you who work your butt off to buy your dream car, please keep that baby filled up with premium unleaded and make sure you have a premium sound system and AC as well. Please keep the key in the ignition because we dont want to give the car thieves anymore stress than they are already going through. We know that they have hard lives and thus are driven to steal, so we must not aggravate their condition. Take peace in the fact that it will only take you another 10 years to save up enough money to buy another car like that one and that you have improved the life of a fellow subhuman. Sorry for the rant, my son just got his bike stolen from our fenced front yard and I am a little perturbed.

July 25, 2005, 11:43 PM	#1
GaruKim Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2005 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 6	Regarding robberies... Evening Gentlemen, Living in California, I understand the gun laws here pretty well for a 19 year old. One scenerio does have a huge ? mark, so if we may begin the show, You wake up in the night and hear your car alarm go off, grab your shotty and walk out just to inspect what might be happening. VrooOM, you just realized that a guy just hot wired your car, ready to take off... now this is the question.... I know you can't blow his head off right there for starting your car but WHAT IF you made it so he endangered your life. Ex, he started the car and you walked in front of it pointing your barrel to his head DARING him to gas it. Yes, I just made the problem a little worse but my car is also my baby... Please excuse the fact that I might get hit after I shoot him, I just want to know in a court of law, would I be ok because I walked in front of the car and shot the robber due to "endangerment" from him. Rest in Peace to that robber....

July 26, 2005, 12:12 AM	#2
Twycross Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 1,187	Hmm. Not sure. I checked Packing.org, and you can shoot someone "When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony,...". So I guess in theory, you would be justified, but it will probably not look good to a jury that you "unnecessarily escalated the situation". But then again, I am not a legal expert. __________________ The test of character is not 'hanging in' when you expect light at the end of the tunnel, but performance of duty, and persistence of example when you know no light is coming. - Vice Admiral James Stockdale, USN (ret.)

July 28, 2005, 09:19 AM	#14
Mike in VA Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 1998 Location: Santa FE, NM Posts: 2,163	Shooting someone over a car is generally bad ju-ju. even if you're justified, it leaves you open for a lot of [expensive] crap & aggravation you probably don't need. Keep your insurance up, get a LoJack, call the cops. I know it's "your baby", but ultimately, it's just a car, it can be replaced; and while the emotional appeal of removing one more scumbag has its appeal, it really isn't your job, and no good deed goes unpunished, if you know hwat I mean. __________________ M2 The Second Amendment IS homeland defense!

July 28, 2005, 03:48 PM	#16
Rickstir Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2002 Location: Close on the Elk Fork of the Salt River Posts: 166	"My car is my baby" Get over it. There is another one like it somewhere close. Do you really want to shoot a human being over such a trivial matter? While not a dime a dozen, cars can be replaced. Maybe even with something better. You life (either dead or in jail for a long, long time) cannot be. You live in CA, and they are very gun un-freindly. Better for you to put your values into another perspective. __________________ When you were born, you were crying and everyone around you was smiling. Live your life so at the end, you're the one who is smiling and everyone around you is crying.

July 28, 2005, 05:05 PM	#17
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	Ahh, but would it be permissable to shoot out the tires of your own car to prevent the perp from driving away? I know you could slash your own tires, assuming you were close enough...but pulling a firearm literally changes everything... __________________ Robert N. "Remember, Eagles may soar but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"

July 26, 2005, 12:20 AM	#3
carebear Junior member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 494	One bad thing to do is post hypotheticals then carry them out. I'm not sure you'd be in the wrong to try and stop someone from driving away with your car by blocking them in with your body (I would hope not), but if you even HINT you did it to provoke a shootable response you've just blown your presumption of innocence in the confrontation. Similar to egging on a non-violent confrontation to justify a draw. You don't have to retreat (maybe in Cali you do) but there's a thick line between standing one's ground and picking a fight.

July 26, 2005, 12:38 AM	#4
GaruKim Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2005 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 6	Kudos TWYCROSS and CAREBEAR, Thanks for the info.

July 26, 2005, 04:05 AM	#5
kojak Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Posts: 98	Take a .357 magnum and make a warning shout into the ground. Either muzzle flash and bang will stop him or not. If not there's nothing else I would do. At least he will know you let him go at your own free will and that he could have been dead as well.

July 26, 2005, 07:00 AM	#6
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	Carefull - this is NOT a robbery - which is forcible stealing. This is larceny (grand larceny possibly) and is NOT a shootable action. AFTER you point your shotty(?) at him and he drives at you it becomes something else. How it escalated to that point will be investigated - hopefully you could explain it a bit different then you proposed, and hopefully after you shoot at him and possibly hit him, your baby won't go careening into traffic or some innocent civilians because you are responsible for what happens when it does. If you miss and he runs YOU over - you are the dead victim - over a car. Call the cops - let them handle it.

July 26, 2005, 07:29 AM	#7
CyberSEAL Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Posts: 161	They would probably fry you in California, however here in Virginia they'd give you a little citizen's medal you could wear around...

July 26, 2005, 08:28 AM	#9
Tylden Member Join Date: July 25, 2005 Posts: 57	I"m not sure about California laws, but here in Kentucky you'd get awarded with deluxe accomodations at the grey bar hotel for an extended stay. If you set him up to endanger you, then you would be the aggressor. You had the option of avoiding being endangered so therefore that would have been the proper course of action (at least legally). As far as warning shots, that is not a smart move either. Kentucky law calls that wanton endangerment I believe. One more thing to consider, unless you are shooting slugs, I'm not sure you'd be able to penetrate a car windshield and still make the kill with a shotgun....I could be wrong here, but just my feelings on it.

July 26, 2005, 11:16 AM	#10
carebear Junior member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 494	Warning shots pretty much a no-no here as well. Deadly force is designed to be used to stop, not warn.

July 26, 2005, 11:37 AM	#11
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	Cyber - uhhh, that is what I said. Depending of course on the value of his car (in NY anyway). Him putting himself in front of the car aiming/prepared to shoot someone comitting larceny - so now is the perp committing assault or self defense in driving at him? Not sure in California. In NY... A person may use physical force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of larceny ...except that he may use deadly physical force for such purposes only when he reasonably believes that: (a) The offense committed by such person was: (i) a felony or an attempt to commit a felony involving the use or attempted use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or... now in NY , grand larceny IS a felony, but the BG wasn't using force till our hero...forced the issue. This will be investigated - in CA?? Good luck!

July 27, 2005, 12:26 AM	#12
GaruKim Junior Member Join Date: July 14, 2005 Location: Norwalk, CA Posts: 6	I'm very pleased with the replies, learning a lot definitely. I guess from all the info you guys have posted, I would definitely reconsider my actions in this situation. Good to know there's people out there who put in there two cents, thanks guys.

July 27, 2005, 12:55 AM	#13
R1145 Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 351	What happens when it turns out you shot a 12-year old kid out for a joy-ride? Not that he didn't have it coming, of course, and legally it would be irrelevent, but politically, depending on what race you are and where you live, it could make you a candidate for persecution (and prosecution) by some DA who's running for Mayor next election. Plus the civil lawsuit his dirtbag parents will hit you with... I'm not an attorney, but I think you've got the letter of the law covered, but depending on some variables, you may be on thin ice. Stealing a car is a felony. Self-defense outside the home generally requires you to retreat, if possible. However, you are allowed to use lethal force to protect a life. Make sure you get hit by the car. Seriously, avoid showing a gun unless you actually use it, and avoid using a gun literally until "gravest extreme". Get LoJack.

July 28, 2005, 10:21 AM	#15
bclark1 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,531	if your cars your baby why would you want to ventilate it? you might get it recovered in a better condition than you'd put it in, particularly using a shotgun. speed holes only make cars faster on TV.

July 29, 2005, 01:11 AM	#20
kennybs plbg Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Location: Hemet, Ca. Posts: 524	More NYS Penal Law: #35-30 4. A private person acting on his own account may use physical force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes such to be necessary to effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person whom he reasonably believes to have committed an offense and who in fact has committed such offense; and he may use deadly physical force for such purpose when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to: (a) Defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force; or (b) Effect the arrest of a person who has committed murder, manslaughter in the first degree, robbery, forcible rape or forcible sodomy and who is in immediate flight therefrom. kenny b

July 29, 2005, 09:31 AM	#21
625 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2005 Location: PA Posts: 858	It's sad that legal ramifications even have to be discussed. If someone were stealing someone else's car, which may be their only means of getting to and from work, you should be able to do just about anything you want to the thief other than killing him. (A good a$$ kicking would be best) Standing in front of a car that has been started by a thief is a BAD idea. Puts you both in a bad situation. If the thief is breaking into your house/apartment, then deadly force can be used, PERIOD, no ifs, ands or buts. If corrupt lawyers and judges didn't run our legal system, I think there would be FAR fewer criminals with an added bonus of people not worrying if someone is going to sue them if they protect their property and family. Some common sense would be nice! Ok, I'm done with my rant....for now. __________________ I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves. Ronald Reagan

July 29, 2005, 09:49 AM	#22
jrklaus Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 520	625, it is true that horse-stealing in the Old West was a capital crime for much the same reason you note that a car may be one's only means of transportation to work; if you stole a man's horse between water holes, you were literally condemning him to death. While our society wouldn't look at things that way now, I'm not certain the Old West folks didn't have it right...? When you get right down to it, a government based upon laws must be a government based upon the rights to property. Property is the only thing that is tangible. Murder is against the law because it unlawfully deprives you of your life, which is your property, etc.

July 29, 2005, 11:09 AM	#23
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	You can use physical force to stop or detain someone who has committed an offense (&/or crime), so no problem there punching the BG in the side of the head. Actually, a civilian in NY has quite alot of leeway in making "arrests", as Kenny posted.

July 29, 2005, 08:52 PM	#24
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	I have no doubt that if I came out and saw someone stealing one of my vehicles, . . . and if I brought out my shotgun, . . . it is a Beretta semi-auto with #4 shot, 00 buck, then slugs: The first round would take out a rear tire of my van or truck, . . . front tire on my wife's car, . . . letting the bg know I am serious about him not taking my vehicle, . . . Tires are cheaper than doing without my vehicle while I wait for some LEO to find it. I kinda figure that then the only thing I will have to do until the sheriff gets there is stay upwind of the driveway, . . . cause as the bg is running out the driveway, . . . something will probably be running down his leg that will not have a pleasant aroma I also gotta believe that I will probably never know who it was, . . . unless of course he has a heart attack while sprinting out my 600 foot gravel driveway, then 1/2 mile to the nearest good highway. He'll mark my place off his list of likely places to rob. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!