7.62x39 Home Defense? - Page 2

allaroundhunter · November 2, 2012, 07:51 AM

I don't understand why people will say rifles aren't for home defense, but don't have a valid reason for saying so.... You don't need 50 yards to employ a rifle effectively....

Sent from my HTC One X

Mrgunsngear · November 2, 2012, 11:46 AM

IMO it's because many still hold on to terminal performance/overpenetration perceptions that were developed when discussing FMJ military ammo. It's slowly fading as more and more evidence becomes availible that completely refutes that line of thinking but some things die slowly---like gun/ammo choices.

Rifleman1952 · November 3, 2012, 09:01 AM

Bullet/weapon selection is such a personal decision that, at times, it almost takes on religious qualities. Many old timers believe the .45 acp and the 1911 to be the ultimate choice for home defense, and nothing, no amount of ballistics testing or scientific evidence will dissuade them from their belief. But hey, if that is where their comfort level is, God Bless 'em. I'm an old timer too and a Mossberg 590 loaded with #4 buck is my comfort level, however the evidence presented by AR-15 supporters on this thread and from other sources, has convinced me pretty conclusively that the Varmint rounds in .223 are absolutely worthy of consideration. The reason I enjoy thefiringline, is because of the treasure trove of good information.

coyota1 · November 3, 2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

loaded with #4 buck is my comfort level

I don't know if it was this thread where I mentioned a shotgun as the ultimate in home defense, but I can't say it enough so I'll say it again. That aside, If you are going to use the M43 get a frangible bullet that isn't labeled "zombie" that will expend the energy in the attacker, and not in your neighbor's living room.

GeauxTide · November 4, 2012, 09:02 PM

123 Ball in a house will shoot through several rooms, if not exit the house. Having tested 357, 41, 44, ACP, 223, and 12ga in abandoned houses, the 12 ga is the way to go IMO. 7.5 shot will be devastating to a perp across the room and penetrates the least.

allaroundhunter · November 4, 2012, 09:12 PM

Quote:

123 Ball in a house will shoot through several rooms, if not exit the house. Having tested 357, 41, 44, ACP, 223, and 12ga in abandoned houses, the 12 ga is the way to go IMO. 7.5 shot will be devastating to a perp across the room and penetrates the least.

...........Which is exactly why no one has recommended using ball ammo for defense.....

coyota1 · November 4, 2012, 09:20 PM

This idea isn't main stream, but a side by side with cut shells would have excellent stopping power with absolute minimum over penetration. They are like 12 ga glazers.

Ignition Override · November 5, 2012, 05:10 AM

We will soon find out whether any guns were used to stop/deter looters, break-ins in devastated areas of NJ, NY.
Kind of ironic that those two states have some of the most restrictive regulations for their law-abiding citizens, isn't it?

Can NJ or NY citizens legally keep a loaded shotgun or semi-auto rifle in a home?

alex0535 · November 5, 2012, 06:02 AM

^If they can't I would see it as a blatant violation of civil rights.

I know in places like DC, they basically just tax you out the ass and make it so difficult to obtain a gun there that most don't.

I lived in a town where there was a law mandating that you have a firearm and ammo in your house. Conscientious objectors are exempt. Of course this is Georgia, and its a very different place than NY or NJ.

qwerty53 · September 28, 2014, 04:59 PM

What is you are shooting if from 10" sbr?

Evil Monkey · September 28, 2014, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Which is exactly why no one has recommended using ball ammo for defense

I do.

I don't buy into the hollow point crap in home defense because if you miss, it'll behave like FMJ when going through walls. If partitions are struck, it will also end up acting like FMJ when going through bodies.

This whole talk about over penetration is silly. You're in a shoot out. The other guy is probably shooting too. If your bullet or the perps bullet goes through a wall and kills a family member, then that's what the world had in store for you. Ain't really much you can do about it.

std7mag · September 28, 2014, 05:36 PM

Exactly how many are in the horde of zombies that you intend to defend your home from????

Model12Win · September 28, 2014, 06:24 PM

Not enough power IMHO.

Use .223 or 5.56 ammo for SD work. More power and the lighter bullets fragment inside living tissue, causing horrific damage. 7.62x39mm might have more muzzle energy, but that mean absolutely nothing when all it does is poke a .30 caliber hole through the target then goes through the wall and kill the neighbor next door.

There is a reason why SWAT and spec ops operators use .223/5.56 for building assaults.

Mosin-Marauder · September 28, 2014, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Not enough power IMHO.

Use .223 or 5.56 ammo for SD work. More power and the lighter bullets fragment inside living tissue, causing horrific damage. 7.62x39mm might have more muzzle energy, but that mean absolutely nothing when all it does is poke a .30 caliber hole through the target then goes through the wall and kill the neighbor next door.

There is a reason why SWAT and spec ops operators use .223/5.56 for building assaults.

What?

If we're talking about a SD/HD situation, there isn't much loss of velocity from Muzzle to 15 yards. If you're using quality ammo, it's going to have greater effect than a 5.56. Someone on here posted a ballistic Gel test using quality defense ammo, and proved that it actually expanded a great deal. I honestly don't understand why you're trying to knock a caliber that has killed more people worldwide with steel jacketed ammo (no expansion) than any other caliber in the world. If it can do that, I'm pretty sure it can take down some thug pretty effectively.

kraigwy · September 29, 2014, 09:11 AM

It wont fit in my pocket. If it don't fit in my pocket then its not with me 24/7.

If you don't have it on your person, it ceases to become a self defense gun and becomes an "I hope I can get to it" gun.

Also: There is no such thing as a guaranteed DRT or one shot stop gun.

If you've ever been hunting you know it. You can shoot an animal with a high powered rifle, such as a 300 WM and it can run 100 yards or more with its lungs blown out. If a 300 WM wont stop a 125 white tail every time, every shot, then how can you expect a 7.62X39 or anything else to do it.

But your first concern would be access. It takes less then three seconds to kick in a front door. It takes a lot longer then that to get off the couch and hunt up you rifle you have stashed in the bedroom some where.

We all know none of use carry a rifle or shotgun around the house. You want something small enough you can carry it constantly with out discomfort.

I learned a long time ago a small gun in the pocket beats a heavy gun in the truck (or bedroom) every time.

2damnold4this · September 29, 2014, 10:52 AM

We have some words of wisdom here from several posters but I think both Kraigwy and plouffedaddy have made excellent points. Kraigwy's point that you have to have your defensive firearm with you is a good one. Plouffedaddy's point that Zombie Max is repacked and higher priced SST is also spot on. The bright side is that if you can get to a long gun in 7.62x39, SST ammo is an excellent choice for home defense.

JD0x0 · September 29, 2014, 11:03 AM

I think 'over penetration' is a bit myth and often exaggerated. Know what's behind your target. I also think ball ammo in a rifle cartridge would be a mistake. Simply because it wouldn't be incredibly efficient at stopping compared to a good expanding load. If the bullet doesn't yaw, you've basically made a .30 cal hole. If a JSP doesn't expand for whatever reason, then fine, worst case you've got performance similar to a FMJ, best case, you get .50-70 cal expansion and a nice golf ball or possibly larger exit hole and a very uncomfortable BG.

Ball ammo is for lining up headshots on zombies so you can take 2-3 with one stone. Since we don't live with zombies, I'll take expanding ammo.

BTW, seeing how easy it is to shoot through an interior wall, I'd be nervous to use any cartridge/projectile combination that claims not to penetrate through interior walls. If it can't make it through a bit of dry wall, how do you expect the it to make it though bones, sinew, and flesh adequately to stop the target?

SST is a pretty good projectile, but I'd have to do testing at point blank (SD ranges). Hitting at muzzle velocity may cause unwanted fragmentation of the bullet.

Fishbed77 · October 1, 2014, 09:31 AM

Speaking of zombies, how about this thread!

TimSr · October 1, 2014, 11:04 AM

Overpenetration is a serious concern, and most people like to stay on the safe side. Look around your house at possible places you might be shooting. What's behind it? A wall and the kid's bedroom? Who wants to fire a rifle round into that wall based internet claims that it won't penetrate? You look at a window as a possible entry point. Whats beyond that window? The neighbor's window across the street or the woods? Learn your house's layout, and figure out what shots are safe, before you ever need to find out. And for God's sake, if you want to know what your gun will penetrate with a certain ammo, get some drywall scraps run some tests of your own! If you shoot through a wall and kill somebody, the guy who posted on the internet that it was safe isn't going to be suffering the consequences.

Prefrag ammo, Glaser Safety Slugs, etc. are great answers where penetration is not desired, and for calibers that have a propensity for it.

SpringOWeiler · October 1, 2014, 07:46 PM

Over penetration is a myth invented by the inferior caliber crowd to try to disguise the incababilities of their cartridges. If I'm wrong provide evidence of people being killed by over penetrating bullets.
I'm waiting.......
5yrs later I'm wating......
1000 years later I'm waiting.

Yes the zombie max/sst is an excellent choice.

jimbob86 · October 1, 2014, 09:01 PM

Quote:

The Z-max is just over priced V-Max ammo

(FIFA.)

Not if you buy it on clearance..... then it's just inexpensive V-Max ammo with an odd colored tip ......

Quote:

Speaking of Zombies, how about this thread!

Well, it is that time of year again!

diggler1833 · October 6, 2014, 11:02 AM

It would make a hole in whatever you shot it with, that is for sure. Also, the muzzle flash and concussion of unleashing that round inside a hallway would be rather impressive...if not severely detrimental to your own senses.

WV_gunner · October 6, 2014, 03:03 PM

I wouldn't fire mine inside. Way too loud, and a pistol or shotgun will work better.

November 2, 2012, 11:46 AM	#27
Mrgunsngear Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2011 Location: Carolina Posts: 3,415	IMO it's because many still hold on to terminal performance/overpenetration perceptions that were developed when discussing FMJ military ammo. It's slowly fading as more and more evidence becomes availible that completely refutes that line of thinking but some things die slowly---like gun/ammo choices. __________________ Mrgunsngear Youtube Channel

November 4, 2012, 09:02 PM	#30
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	Sure you can use a rifle, however....... 123 Ball in a house will shoot through several rooms, if not exit the house. Having tested 357, 41, 44, ACP, 223, and 12ga in abandoned houses, the 12 ga is the way to go IMO. 7.5 shot will be devastating to a perp across the room and penetrates the least.

September 28, 2014, 04:59 PM	#35
qwerty53 Junior Member Join Date: October 31, 2011 Posts: 3	What is you are shooting if from 10" sbr? Last edited by qwerty53; September 28, 2014 at 05:07 PM.

September 29, 2014, 09:11 AM	#40
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	It wont fit in my pocket. If it don't fit in my pocket then its not with me 24/7. If you don't have it on your person, it ceases to become a self defense gun and becomes an "I hope I can get to it" gun. Also: There is no such thing as a guaranteed DRT or one shot stop gun. If you've ever been hunting you know it. You can shoot an animal with a high powered rifle, such as a 300 WM and it can run 100 yards or more with its lungs blown out. If a 300 WM wont stop a 125 white tail every time, every shot, then how can you expect a 7.62X39 or anything else to do it. But your first concern would be access. It takes less then three seconds to kick in a front door. It takes a lot longer then that to get off the couch and hunt up you rifle you have stashed in the bedroom some where. We all know none of use carry a rifle or shotgun around the house. You want something small enough you can carry it constantly with out discomfort. I learned a long time ago a small gun in the pocket beats a heavy gun in the truck (or bedroom) every time. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

September 29, 2014, 11:03 AM	#42
JD0x0 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 1,037	I think 'over penetration' is a bit myth and often exaggerated. Know what's behind your target. I also think ball ammo in a rifle cartridge would be a mistake. Simply because it wouldn't be incredibly efficient at stopping compared to a good expanding load. If the bullet doesn't yaw, you've basically made a .30 cal hole. If a JSP doesn't expand for whatever reason, then fine, worst case you've got performance similar to a FMJ, best case, you get .50-70 cal expansion and a nice golf ball or possibly larger exit hole and a very uncomfortable BG. Ball ammo is for lining up headshots on zombies so you can take 2-3 with one stone. Since we don't live with zombies, I'll take expanding ammo. BTW, seeing how easy it is to shoot through an interior wall, I'd be nervous to use any cartridge/projectile combination that claims not to penetrate through interior walls. If it can't make it through a bit of dry wall, how do you expect the it to make it though bones, sinew, and flesh adequately to stop the target? SST is a pretty good projectile, but I'd have to do testing at point blank (SD ranges). Hitting at muzzle velocity may cause unwanted fragmentation of the bullet. Last edited by JD0x0; September 29, 2014 at 11:08 AM.

November 2, 2012, 07:51 AM	#26
allaroundhunter Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2012 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 1,670	I don't understand why people will say rifles aren't for home defense, but don't have a valid reason for saying so.... You don't need 50 yards to employ a rifle effectively.... Sent from my HTC One X

November 3, 2012, 09:01 AM	#28
Rifleman1952 Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 2012 Location: Ohio Posts: 284	Bullet/weapon selection is such a personal decision that, at times, it almost takes on religious qualities. Many old timers believe the .45 acp and the 1911 to be the ultimate choice for home defense, and nothing, no amount of ballistics testing or scientific evidence will dissuade them from their belief. But hey, if that is where their comfort level is, God Bless 'em. I'm an old timer too and a Mossberg 590 loaded with #4 buck is my comfort level, however the evidence presented by AR-15 supporters on this thread and from other sources, has convinced me pretty conclusively that the Varmint rounds in .223 are absolutely worthy of consideration. The reason I enjoy thefiringline, is because of the treasure trove of good information.

November 4, 2012, 09:20 PM	#32
coyota1 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: West Michigan Posts: 663	This idea isn't main stream, but a side by side with cut shells would have excellent stopping power with absolute minimum over penetration. They are like 12 ga glazers.

November 5, 2012, 05:10 AM	#33
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	We will soon find out whether any guns were used to stop/deter looters, break-ins in devastated areas of NJ, NY. Kind of ironic that those two states have some of the most restrictive regulations for their law-abiding citizens, isn't it? Can NJ or NY citizens legally keep a loaded shotgun or semi-auto rifle in a home?

November 5, 2012, 06:02 AM	#34
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 908	^If they can't I would see it as a blatant violation of civil rights. I know in places like DC, they basically just tax you out the ass and make it so difficult to obtain a gun there that most don't. I lived in a town where there was a law mandating that you have a firearm and ammo in your house. Conscientious objectors are exempt. Of course this is Georgia, and its a very different place than NY or NJ.

September 28, 2014, 05:36 PM	#37
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Exactly how many are in the horde of zombies that you intend to defend your home from????

September 28, 2014, 06:24 PM	#38
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Not enough power IMHO. Use .223 or 5.56 ammo for SD work. More power and the lighter bullets fragment inside living tissue, causing horrific damage. 7.62x39mm might have more muzzle energy, but that mean absolutely nothing when all it does is poke a .30 caliber hole through the target then goes through the wall and kill the neighbor next door. There is a reason why SWAT and spec ops operators use .223/5.56 for building assaults.

September 29, 2014, 10:52 AM	#41
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	We have some words of wisdom here from several posters but I think both Kraigwy and plouffedaddy have made excellent points. Kraigwy's point that you have to have your defensive firearm with you is a good one. Plouffedaddy's point that Zombie Max is repacked and higher priced SST is also spot on. The bright side is that if you can get to a long gun in 7.62x39, SST ammo is an excellent choice for home defense.

October 1, 2014, 09:31 AM	#43
Fishbed77 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2010 Posts: 4,862	Speaking of zombies, how about this thread!

October 1, 2014, 11:04 AM	#44
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	Overpenetration is a serious concern, and most people like to stay on the safe side. Look around your house at possible places you might be shooting. What's behind it? A wall and the kid's bedroom? Who wants to fire a rifle round into that wall based internet claims that it won't penetrate? You look at a window as a possible entry point. Whats beyond that window? The neighbor's window across the street or the woods? Learn your house's layout, and figure out what shots are safe, before you ever need to find out. And for God's sake, if you want to know what your gun will penetrate with a certain ammo, get some drywall scraps run some tests of your own! If you shoot through a wall and kill somebody, the guy who posted on the internet that it was safe isn't going to be suffering the consequences. Prefrag ammo, Glaser Safety Slugs, etc. are great answers where penetration is not desired, and for calibers that have a propensity for it.

October 1, 2014, 07:46 PM	#45
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	Over penetration is a myth invented by the inferior caliber crowd to try to disguise the incababilities of their cartridges. If I'm wrong provide evidence of people being killed by over penetrating bullets. I'm waiting....... 5yrs later I'm wating...... 1000 years later I'm waiting. Yes the zombie max/sst is an excellent choice.

October 6, 2014, 11:02 AM	#47
diggler1833 Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Location: NC Posts: 56	It would make a hole in whatever you shot it with, that is for sure. Also, the muzzle flash and concussion of unleashing that round inside a hallway would be rather impressive...if not severely detrimental to your own senses.

October 6, 2014, 03:03 PM	#48
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	I wouldn't fire mine inside. Way too loud, and a pistol or shotgun will work better.