Why a shotgun?

[PPCLI 2 can.]

i was shot in a small house while serving in serbia in 92. the hostile had a
9mm hand gun and he shot me as i came in to clear a laundry / food storage room at 6 feet away he shot at my head and hit me twice in the left forearm.
if this had been a shotgun id be dead. instead i have two quarter sized scars through my forearm and either than the odd itchy spell youd never know.
the reason i say this is that these are the circumstances in your home- close proximity as well as you have to act fast.
yet in your home invasion scenario i hope the intruder is not backed by 4 angry canuck grunts llike i was, who put about 20 7.62 nato rounds through him.
this is why i have a big dog and a bigger shotgun.

[guntotin_fool]

To those who say a AR platform is better than a SG for HD.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BODY HIT BY A TWELVE GAUGE UP CLOSE?

I have my best friend currently serving in Fallujah as a Navy Medic attached to Team Green. Last week or so, he had the opportunity to patch up a BG who had shot a couple of marines while taking NINE hits from M4's. 7 of the hits were torso. The other two were one to the thigh and one to the upper arm. It was the thigh hit breaking his femur that put BG on the ground. Not the three in the belly or two in the lungs or two near the braxial artery in his shoulder. All of the shots fired were in a alley at bad breath distances. He was seriously upset at the lack of damage done to the bad guy, saying that almost all the hits looked like a drill press had just run a 3/16 inch drill bit thru him, with minimal trauma in the surrounding tissues.

I have had the misfortune of seeing 3 bodies and one living being after being shot with a 12 gauge. 2 were suicides, one was a hunting accident and another was a robbery result. One suicide was a rigged gun and a shot to the chest, A large gapping wound your whole arm could fit in. The other suicide was a head shot, what was left of the head was some tissue that flopped around. The hunting accident was a loaded gun set down in a row boat and somehow the dog either stepped on the trigger or moved the gun so its trigger came to rest against another gun and was discharged. That man had a GAPING wound where his left kidney and intestines were. He survived, uses a colostomy bag and can not drink much with only one kidney and part of a liver left. The robbery victim shot at a few feet by the second guy in the door after he thought it was taking too long. Two loads of 12 gauge, one arm hanging by some skin and another massive hole in the chest and rib area.

At house-hold ranges maybe a Thompson would be better, but NO WAY a AR is better.

[Jeepmark2005]

While responding to a shots fired call I had the oportunity to see the result of a negligent discharge shotgun wound. A man carrying a long barreled 12ga loaded with bird shot was going to shoot a cat that was herassing his duck of all things. He slipped and fell backwards. He was carrying the shotgun in his right hand and instintively raised his arms when he fell. The shotgun discharged while pointed at his right calf.

The calf muscle was completely gone as was the back half of the bone. Amazingly they were able to save his leg although he will always have a limp. The distruction from even bird shot in this case at extremely close range was devistating. Birdshot is a poor choice for defense because it losses it's power VERY quickly but this deminstrated the power of a shotgun to me. Never underestimate one.

[ddelange]

To those who say a AR platform is better than a SG for HD. . . . but NO WAY a AR is better.

I've seen both type of wounds. A SG is deadly, and a formidable home defense weapon. However, in my situation, I have a large house and kids to protect. Clearing a house alone is stupid, but if anyone started busting the door down I'd have to do it. I've always kept my Mossberg 12ga ready for the task, until I started taking some training in going from room to room. The M4's weight, size, versatility, and firepower give it other advantages when dynamic room clearing must be accomplished. I agree that the wound cavity of 5.56mm NATO would not equal one round of the 12 guage #1 Buck I have ready in my SG; however, I must contemplate other scenarios: multiple targets = rapid acquisition and engagement of two or more; in that scenario the M4 is better. I'm not going to argue the terminal ballistics of one 5.56mm NATO M193 55gr are going to be better than one shot of 12 ga. #1. But I can fire 4 aimed shots at two attackers in the time it takes me to fire my SG, pump it, and reengage the same or next attacker. . . . or put 6 rounds into the same attacker in the time it takes to put the second 12ga shells of buckshot into the target.

I've seen the terminal ballistics results of both, and contrary to all the noise on this site, and other places, the 5.56mm NATO round, with the right bullet, is a human killer. I've seen it. I've talked to soldiers who've seen it. I've talked to military autopsy technicians in the Army that have seen it.

It's all a tradeoff, and I'll say that the job of home defense can be adequately done with either, depending upon what your circumstances are. Before I had kids, I would stick with my shotgun all the way, stay barricaded in our bedroom, and call 911. I don't have that luxury now; and having had training with both, I choose an M4 for my specific home defense needs: moving quickly to block intruders from the upstairs where the children are, and being able to engage and fire multiple shots at multiple attackers.

Don't take my statements above to say that an M4 is superior for home defense; only that it is a valid option for individuals who have different, often very dynamic homes to defend. If you don't believe me, have a chat with Greg Hamilton of Insights Training, a strong believer in AR/M4's for home defense.

[joneb]

As already stated, clear your house with the muzzle down, load with #1 buck.
I never keep one in the tube of my 12 ga. Nor do I sleep with a grenade under my pillow with the pin pulled, but that's just me in another life things might be different.

[bermo61]

Ok here is another take on the shotgun argument.

1. stopping power...huge! The energy delivered in a 12 guage blast is massive

2. Low penetration...less likely to penetrate walls and kill loved ones because the energy diminishes so rapidly

3. Under stress you can be less accurate and still deliver a crippling shot

4. Intimidating..you bet.


I love my handguns and use those for home defense but the shotgun is a good choice also. A rifle caliber is way too powerful in terms of penetration and might land you in jail if you accidently kill someone due to over penetration....not fun.

[Long Path]

While the shotgun is an amazing tool in terms of stopping power, it holds a lot of drawbacks for home defense, too:

• The shotgun is very large, and requires a lot of physical training to effectively round corners without risking the gun being grabbed or deflected.
  
• The shotgun usually has a fairly low capacity, and is generally slower to engage multiple targets, either due to the action, recoil, or both.
  
• The shotgun is often over-estimated, and under-estimated: People over-estimate the spread ("You can clear a room with the spread!" or "You don't even need to aim it!" are often heard), and under-estimate the penetration of their shot (especially buckshot).
  
• Because of perceived recoil and perceived super-power effectiveness of the shotgun, most homeowners who keep one won't practice with it.
  
• But the biggest problem with a shotgun for home defense is simply this: it gets left in the closet when a knock at the door is heard. Because of its size, the shotgun is not kept as handy as a mid-sized handgun. While a 4" M10 can be quietly dropped back into the pocket of a robe once you've established that the knock at the door wasn't a threat, the shotgun that you've picked up has to be dealt with in a more obvious manner, and most folks are too embarrassed or lazy to do this. Also, it's difficult to operate most shotguns one-handed, which renders it useless during the most dangerous times.

While shotguns are extremely effective, a good mid-sized pistol in a major caliber is going to be of more use when keeping the homestead safe.

[Odd Job]

I was lucky enough to have specialized training in the handling of 12 gauge pump action shotguns by a member of the SAPS Flying Squad. The shotgun course was two days. The first day was held at a secluded range with a 'house' made of tyres. In the various 'rooms' cardboard cutouts were placed so we could practice rounding corners, point-while-reload, and generally get a basic feel for shooting in confined spaces while offering the least possible profile to any potential aggressors.



Note that pistols were compulsory on the course because we practised transitioning to those upon two blows of the whistle. Afterwards we engaged the same targets with pistols only.
My feeling is this: I would be more than comfortable with a shotgun for home defense. I wouldn't be looking to assault like we did on the course, I would be looking to defend and I reckon that I would be a handful to take down if I had that shotgun. The premise is that the pistol is there as a backup. It would be available because in SA I wear that all the time IWB. In a home situation I would probably have the pistol at hand before I got the shotgun out.
If I was forced to come out of my safe area and someone tried to relieve me of that shotgun, well things would get interesting. I think he is going to have a hard time getting it off me because I'll pull the trigger regardless. If he still wants it (or has it) after that, he can take it. By the time he has turned it around and definitely before he has pumped it, I'll have the 9mm in hand...
Anyway that is my take on this based on my limited experience in a non-stressful situation. Under stress the rules could change, but in the lead-up to whatever happens I would choose the shotgun without hesitation.

We also did a course involving rifles and the 'assault rifle' component of that course was done with an R5 rifle, which is a 5.56mm Galil derivative. We fired that on semi-auto and auto, stationary and moving. Now if I was outside that is what I would take if I could choose between that and the shotgun, but not inside. I like the R5, I really do, but at the end of the day a close range shotgun injury with what we call SSG or SG is likely to be more destructive to the assailant than an R5 round (or even a few R5 rounds) all other factors being equal.
I have a great deal of respect for shotguns as I have seen several 12 gauge wounds in reality. But the thing that sells it for me is this: put yourself in the assailant's shoes. You have just broken in to someone's house. You are hoping he is not there, but suddenly you realise he is. What is going to make you 'pucker' more, the thought that he has a shotgun or the thought that he has an 'assault rifle?'

[Harley Quinn]

When you know what they are all about, they are the weapon of choice for a person who wants to protect his or her house. IMHO.

Problem: even those who think they are knowlegeable in the game of self defense must also be knowledgeable in: when, where, and why.

Emotions are a terrible thing, and one of the leading cause, of bad shootings, and deaths in family homes. (not the bad guy either).

Das Boot enough of this gun stuff how about that safe <8->)

HQ

[Jeepmark2005]

I just want to repeat what was clearly demonstrated on the box o' truth web site. Bird shot is for little birdies and buck shot is for defense. If you are buying a load that is light enough to not go thru a wall then how will it have the strength to go thru a BG ? The shot does not pick what to go thru and what not to. IF you use a shotgun for defense - select 00 buck, 000 buck or slugs depending on your tactical situation. The shotgun is not the answer. It is a choice depending on your situation. I answer a knock at the door with a .45 behind my leg out of sight. I use a shotgun as a barricade gun or when a high lever of force is needed on a single exposed target such as a subject refusing to surrender a knife in an open area or covering another officer deploying a less lethal weapon. When clearing a house or apartment I select my AR and .45 . The AR is good in tight quarters and can be fired rapidly on one or multiple targets. With a shotgun I am more likely to fire a single round and pump the action while observing the effect where as with the AR I continue to engage a single target until the threat is stopped (Multiple rounds). Ultimately you must make your own choice because there is no definitive right answer. The right answer is the one the results in you winning a gun fight. The ends justify the means. No particular gun guarantees you anything. Training and practice only increase your odds as does the right gun for the situation.

[ddelange]

While shotguns are extremely effective, a good mid-sized pistol in a major caliber is going to be of more use when keeping the homestead safe.

I must respectfully disagree with your characterization that a pistol is going to be of "more use".

In the words of, I believe, Jeff Cooper: "a pistol should only be used to fight your way to your long gun."

A pistol certainly has its role in the toolbox of home defense tools, but it certainly isn't the tool of "more" or best use. I still advocate that any homeowner concerned with serious self defense needs either a shotgun, or a carbine (along with some professional training) in order to be ready for the multitude of contingencies that can develop during a home invasion. A cell phone, tactical light, and pistol are the first three tools that should go in the box. From there, I definitely suggest a SG or AR/M4, depending on the homeowner's circumstances.

[guntotin_fool]

I must respectfully disagree with alot that has been said here.

Speed, A shot gun in the hands of a experienced user is just as fast as a M4 user in addressing mulitple targets, and just as fast in putting aimed shots on a target. I have twice hit triples on rising quail. I have hit a lot of doubles in pheasants, grouse, and ducks, and many many more in skeet and sporting clays. I often shoot with a guy who can hit 7 hand tossed clay targets before they hit the ground. That sounds like a machine gun going off and he shoots a 1300 winchester. A properly fitted shotgun is the most intuitive weapon now available I believe. When I pull it up, where I look it hits. There is no aiming consciously done...it becomes "Bird!" "bang!"

Size The 870 with a 13 inch pull stock and a 18 in barrel and a two shot tube ext is just two inches at most longer than a M4, Not very massive by comparison.

Weight Might weigh another pound more. Two inches and a pound, does not make the M4 that much better. If you have a AR with a A2 stock and a 20 inch barrel, you are out to about 42 inches in length vers about 37 for the 870. Add a second mag taped to the m4 and the weights are a toss.

effects, Load a 5.56 with any load you can name, and at 0 to 7 yards the shot gun will beat it EVERY time. If we were allowed the happy switch with the 3 shot burst, it might MIGHT compare.

Distances. I build houses for a living. VERY few houses built today or at any time that we are likley to be living in, will have more than a 40 foot clear shot any where in the home. 13 yards. Less than twelve by the time you add barrel lenght to the equation. Next time you get to shoot at a range that lets you try things, pace out 13 yards and stick some objects out there to shoot up. Remember that 0-5 yards shotgun loads are pretty much still a single mass. From 5 yards to 30 yards with a cylinder bore, expansion is about 1 inch in spread for every yard of length. At 13 yards that means an 8 inch spread or pattern with 9 buckshot inside that 8 inches. If you load as a candy stripe load, (buck/slug/buck etc) the next shot will drive a 3/4 inch hole right thru him with the second buck shot load now making it 19 holes in the bad guy. In less than a second, verses maybe 3 5.56 holes from your AR?

recoil. I hardly ever feel the gun go off when shooting at birds or clays. If you shoot one, you deal with it. With a shottie that fits you and proper basics, you can dump all 7 down range in a heartbeat. I have a good freind who has the new tactical 1100 from remington with the 22 inch barrel and the plus 4 tube on it... 9 rounds of 12 guage as fast your index finger can go...

Reliability. Mine have shot in dusty windblown fields, blazing hot trap and skeet lines. in the dead of winter. covered with crap from bull dozing our way thru thickets and sloughs looking for birds, Iced over from freezing rain in the deer stands. EVERY SINGLE TIME I HAVE PULLED THE TRIGGER ON AN 870, ANY 870, IT HAS GONE BANG.

One handed. three falls ago I managed to blow a framing nail thru my hand. crushing the capitate and the metacarple of my naughty finger in my left hand. I hunted just as many days using my 870 and my 39 ithaca buy using the "yank rack and shove' method or the thigh slap method of operating a smooth slide with one hand. I was amazed at how fast i became at follow up shots after just a couple of episodes at the sporting clays range.

In my house I am keeping my family safe. I am not clearing the building, the dog or the cops will do that. I am making sure that NO ONE can sneak/break in and reach my kids. I really wish I had a flash bang or a real grenade if someone tried to come up the stairs and attack us...If i could get a 7.62 like a short para Cetme or a nice para FN FAL I might see using that. but in reality, shotgun first, maybe a .45 grease gun or a thomspson......

[U.S.SFC_RET]

PPCLI 2 CAN you indicated in a prior post that you were in the Army. If you were in the Army you couldn't have served in Serbia because there was no American persence in Serbia in 1992. The U.S Army didn't roll into Bosnia-Herzegovina until Jan 1996. Are you sure that you weren't shot at in 1996? Where in Serbia were you shot at?

[Renfield]

you guys can argue all you want to but I doubt you'll change each other's minds

[Rickstir]

I live out in the county. No kids.

My first line of defense is six dogs. One outside 24/7 who barks if something is not right, anywhere around the house. This sets of a chain reaction with the other five. Once out of the house you cannot believe the clatter, until the threat has been determined. Mostly a possum or something. They ramp it up if it is human, friend or foe.

It is a long walk down a narrow hallway to get to the master bedroom. In there I have, not counting my lovely wife, a Surefire G2 and a Beretta 92FS right above my head on the headboard. An 870 fully loaded with 00 buck with one in the chamber concealed in a love seat. It is two steps away from me. In the closet I have my AK-47 but it is scoped and not much use inside the house in the dark. I have just acquired a Bersa Tunder .380 Concealed Carry, that will probably go on my wife's side of the bed after we get her used to it.

You never know for sure, but I think I am ready.

[ddelange]

You never know for sure, but I think I am ready.

It's always a good strategy. "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best."

[ddelange]

guntotin:
Speed, A shot gun in the hands of a experienced user is just as fast as a M4 user in addressing mulitple targets, and just as fast in putting aimed shots on a target. I have twice hit triples on rising quail. I have hit a lot of doubles in pheasants, grouse, and ducks, and many many more in skeet and sporting clays. I often shoot with a guy who can hit 7 hand tossed clay targets before they hit the ground.

So, respectfully, you and your friend are blazin' fast against birds and skeet with a shotgun? I hope you never experience a home invasion, and the odds are that none of us on this thread will, but if it does happen, I hope your house is invaded by pheasants. . .

Seriously, I own a tactical shotgun and an M4. I know the advantages and limitations of each. . . . . but, respectfully, I know for a fact that at least I, and those I have trained with, can engage more targets faster, and fire more bullets into more targets faster with an M4 or AR shorty than with a pump shotgun, or even a semi-auto like a Benelli.

[ATW525]

PPCLI 2 CAN you indicated in a prior post that you were in the Army. If you were in the Army you couldn't have served in Serbia because there was no American persence in Serbia in 1992. The U.S Army didn't roll into Bosnia-Herzegovina until Jan 1996.

PPCLI 2 CAN is Canadian. The Canadians were in Serbia in '92 as part of the United Nations Protection Force.

[Demon5Romeo]

ddelange, your thoughts on SG vs M4/AR-15 Carbine are right on the money. Have used both in combat. I most situations, I'd rather have a M4.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

My apologies to PPCLI 2 CAN

[BADMAN400]

Several of the posts mention the longer length of the SG as being harder to handle. I have the shorter Moss 590A 12 ga. pistol grip 7+1 pump w/tactical light. On the nightstand is my XD-45ACP with X2L light/laser combo. And although I have two .223 AR-like weapons, (the PLR-16 and the SU-16C), I still believe the SG has the edge in HD. After all, first round knockdown would be the goal in the event of a home invasion, and IMO the SG has the best chance of that.

[ddelange]

After all, first round knockdown would be the goal in the event of a home invasion

There is no such thing as "knockdown" power from SG's, carbines, or handguns. Shotgun loads DO NOT KNOCK PEOPLE DOWN. They can create serious wounds. However, even a 12ga 00 Buck load that strikes the BG in the heart will (1) not "knock" the person down; and (2) can leave the BG with enough blood pressure in his system for 10-15 seconds. If the BG/home invader falls down after the first shot, for whatever reason ("hey, I'm shot, I must now fall down"), great; but don't count on it. Be prepared for a quick follow-up shot with whatever you're using, then a quick assessment, and if the BG is still attacking. . . repeat above, maybe with a 2 +1.

[dfaugh]

Depending upon your situation, you can choose a load that's safe, but effective. A couple have poo-poo'd using birdshot, but if you have to worry about over-penetration, it may be best. Because, as mentioned, at short range its not gonna spread out much anyway, but you're throwing alot of lead, but with less chance that it'll penetrate a wall. ANY load out of a shotgun is gonna make a MESS outa whoever's hit. In my situation I prefer 00 buck (don't have to worry much about overpenetration), specifically Sellior & Belloit 3" Magnum 15 pellet 00 buck. These don't have a shot cup, and spread very fast--About a 24" pattern at 40 feet. I have large house and a 40 foot shot would be likely. With the 15 pellet load, it'll put 10-12 onto a mansized target.

Now, I have a PG/folding stock on mine (which others will say is not ideal, but it works for me, with practice), so the overall length is only 28", with the stock folded. Plenty of maneuverability.

I also disagree with a couple other points. I can maneuver my whole house quite well in the dark(having lived here for a few years). Having a light would just make me a target. On the other hand the BG is either gonna have a flashlight, or be stumbling around (and giving away his position). Any family member would simply turn on the lights.

I also, don't buy into the "what if the BG grabs the gun" deal....Unlikely, that I'll be that close. But If someone grabs the barrel, I aughta have a firm enough grip, that I can't lose it, and the immediate response is to swing the other end into his face. At that point I'm also plenty close enough to do serious damage with my legs (studied martial arts for many years).

If I can't handle a situation w/ the 7 rounds packed into the shotgun, it'll certainly buy me time to retreat to my hi-cap rifles.

[BADMAN400]

I stand corrected. I should've said stopping power.

[Bill DeShivs]

Jeepmark
That's the point-you don't WANT it to go through him, but if it does, the residual energy falls off very rapidly. If you do have a miss the shot column of birdshot is easily disrupted and loses energy.
BTW- technically, buck shot is for deer!
Bill