Power of flashlights

BluePhoenix · August 2, 2005, 10:50 PM

Lets say I am in a room without lights, at night, and all I have is moonlight and typical street lights....

Now lets assume some one opens my dor, I grab for my flash light and shine in his face (about 4 - 5 feet away from dor)....

how many lumens of light will I need to blind the man effectivly enough that I can bash his head, even though his plan was to shoot me?

3 flash lights in consideration:

M6 Guardian -- http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/.../419/sesent/00

with one HOUR of 250 lumens and 20 min of 500... this light is very power full, and also has some flexibility to be used in a disaster time, when one would want more then just 20 min

L2 LumaMax -- http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...0/prrfnbr/1141

this is the most flexible flash light I have seen... it provides 18 hours of 15 lumens, and 60 min of 100 lumens. Only 4.2 ounces... but is this 100 lumens enough to blind somebody? I dont know thus im asking

9P Original --- http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...3004/sesent/00

this flashlight is only 120 lumens and just 1 hour, if I choose the 200 lumens it will only be 20 min, thus making it useless for longer use.

please tell me wich flash light you would choose: A. for this particular situation B. for a tactical flashlight

thanks

Oh and please also tell me how good u think these flashlights are as a weapon (to beat ppl :P)

thanks

Double Naught Spy · August 3, 2005, 12:05 AM

I think you are buying into the Surefire campaign that a light beam is a weapon. It really is something of a bogus claim. Even if blinded by the light, he will be able to see one thing, the light. All he needs to do is to shoot at or toward the light and using spray and pray, he stands a very good chance of being successful in his attempt to shoot you, especially at such close range. As the bad guy, he has no concerns about collateral damage, hitting bystanders, or overpenetration. He doesn't have to play by the rules and since he is there to commit murder anyway, then why would he be concerned about these other issues?

Shining a bright light into your attacker's eyes might cause him some problems and might slow his attack for a brief period of time, but those are not things I would want to count on happening. Of course, if you can break putrid wind on demand and in large volume, then that too migh slow him down some too, but I would not count on that either.

Its a flashlight, not a phaser. I might be more swayed if Surefire was able to document a solid history where bright flashlights were successful as weapons in self defense against a goal-oriented attacker (like the guy on your porch wanting to kill you), but to my knowledge, no such documentation exists. If there are any documented cases, they must be few and far between. You would have to think that Surefire would be hyping such cases in their ads where their lights were used if they actually had any cases to hype.

Its a flashlight, not a phaser. You cannot set your flashlight to stun like you can with a phaser (which is sci-fi, of course).

blackmind · August 3, 2005, 12:25 AM

I think that part of the reason flashlights are regarded by some as effective in this manner is that it's a common reaction to shield one's face from the light beam, and/or put up a hand to block it. Some people even sort of lean away from the light. This can work to the advantage of the light-wielding defender.

I myself WILL NOT be buying any flashlights that are not LED. I will not spend over a hundred dollars on an incandescent flashlight whose bulb is subject to breaking from being dropped, or used as an impact weapon.

I contacted Mag Instruments recently and they responded to my query that they expect to be bringing LED Maglites to market in January 2006. But in the meantime, many companies are producing some damn fine LED flashlights, maybe not 250 lumens, but more than 60, and in many cases nearer to 100. I saw an ad for Sure Fire that showed a new LED model by them, as a matter of fact.

Check out the ones by Inova. I'm probably going to buy myself an Inova T3 very soon, because I like what I've seen of it online. It's an 85 lumen LED light that runs a 3.2 watt LED for 2 hours of constant on at peak power, on lithium batteries. I have their tiny tiny X1 flashlight, which uses a single AA battery and is far less than 85 lumens, and it is uncomfortably bright to look directly into.

-blackmind

blackmind · August 3, 2005, 12:42 AM

Any idea if one would have trouble getting one of these flashlights (Sure Fire, Inova, past airport security?

They are not the kinds of flashlights designed to be impact weapons -- they are not D-cell Maglites. Are flashlights yet on the banned-from-flight list?

:barf: Seems like just about everything else is.

I suppose that if they are allowed, they'll make you demonstrate that it's full of batteries and not explosive putty or something.

I sure would not like to have a $60 flashlight confiscated when I fly in September.

-blackmind

jburtonpdx · August 3, 2005, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Any idea if one would have trouble getting one of these flashlights (Sure Fire, Inova, past airport security?

Thats a funny question. I recently traveled and my INOVA went in my checked bags. I put it there just to make sure there would not be any problems with security. It arrived just fine with my bags at the other end (both times there and back).

Recently I ordered a box of the lithium batteries. When they arrived they had the words "Primary lithium batteries - forbidden for transport aboard passenger aircraft" stamped a couple times on the outside of the box.

Appearently I was not supposed to bring those batteries onboard the plane in any instance.

BluePhoenix · August 3, 2005, 09:17 AM

mhh, yes, you made a good point... but what about there LED model:

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...0/prrfnbr/1141

it isnt cheap, but it provides 100 Lumens and an option to run at 15 lumes for 18 hours, making it a flash light that can be used in the everyday use, not just tactical operations that last 20 minuts

and I do have one LED flash light, it cost me 7 bucks... from what I can see its extremly bright.... its the size of a 2 AA maglight but I would say it is brighter and lasts longer....

does anyone know how many lumens the mag lights have, so I have some comperision

Maybe its just the surefire adds that are getting to my mind, but those lamps sound affully BRIGHT....

I just dont have any comperisons....

and as for a combat flash light (aka a flashlight that u can beat ppl with) would you suggest a 6 D Mag Light? (I hope they make LEDs)

**UPDATE** http://www.maglite.com/product.asp?psc=2AACELL

the maglite mini is a handy every day flash light, and in my opinion it lights up a room prity damn well (aka very bright if u ask me)... its only 5 Lumens

so 100 or 500 Lumens is alot of power, so maybe the sure fire ads have some to it

mag lite just doesnt have anything extremly power full the the luma max that sure fire offers... however there batteries last :P and 100 Lumens makes a prity nice flood light

***Well, thanks for pointing to Inova... the T2 got me... semms like a prity usable compact flash light, and the body seems unbreakable to me, (leds dont break from shock)... so this I belive weould be an ideal weapon to carry on you and bash in somebodies head if neaded... however it only burns for 5 hours

and I would like to know the weight... tooo light would suck

Bo Hunter · August 3, 2005, 10:46 AM

Just curious - I don't see much talk of Streamlight, Pelican or any other "high end" flashlight manufactureres on these boards. Is there any reason why? Everyone seems so caught up in Sure-Fire and I'm a bit confused as to why?

What is it about Surefire that gets them so much attention? Are they THAT much better than the others? I see them as having expensive batteries and very limited run time. Of course, I'm looking at it as a flash light to use functionally as well.

I guess if all I'm doing is "combat rolls" down my hall way using the intermittent flash pretending I'm blinding a bad guy before I do a round-house to kick the gun out of his hand followed by a "Jason Bourne" pen stab to his other hand....

Is there something about their construction that puts them over the top of the competition? It just seems like the prices are much higher, and in general, the run times are a bit shorter. Someone bring me up to speed...

black bear 84 · August 3, 2005, 11:39 AM

For those guys wishing for a Maglite with a LOT of lumens, one that will effectively blind you opponent much better than any Surefire M-6 and one that will not cost MEGABUCKS.
See this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...=125447&page=3

Now for those that want a comparison between the three lights, here is a shoot out.
First the regular Maglite 3 "D" at 39 lumens
Second the Surefire M-6 Guardian with the 500 lumens lamp
Third, my own MAG 951 rechargeable with the 951 lumens

Beamshot with the regular Maglite 3 "D" 39 lumens

Beamshot with Surefire M-6 500 lumens

Beamshot with black bear's MAG 951 lumens (rechargeable)

Two more shots from 43 yards, the first with the Surefire M-6 500 lumens
The second with my MAG 951

Beamshot with the Surefire M-6 500 lumens

Beamshot with the MAG 951 (951 lumens)

My MAG 951 been rechargeable can run for 30 minutes per charge (10 more than the Surefire M-6) and will run 500 hours before needing another $24.00 pack of rechargeable batteries.
The Surefire M-6 will have spend $5,000.00 in batteries before ever reach 500 hours!!!!

My light produce the same blindness in animals, they are "encandilated" by the light and don't move, the same effect than when you approach a deer in the middle of the road with your car!!

black bear 84

blackmind · August 3, 2005, 01:14 PM

I'm glad you are considering the T2, BluePhoenix. I just ordered one of those and one of the T3, actually. I am really excited about them, since I already have the X1, which runs on a single AA battery and is quite bright for its size. So the T2 and T3 should be exceptionally bright. 85 lumens? It may not be "951," but for what I need it for, it's sure to be perfectly adequate. I have never had a flashlight that bright before, I believe.

One thing I like a lot about the T2 and T3 is that the end cap has a press/momentary and click/constant on switch on the butt cap. My X1 has a twist for constant on switch, which I don't care much for.

I just read something about a police agency that swears by the T2 as the best flashlight they've used.

-blackmind

BluePhoenix · August 3, 2005, 06:53 PM

I wrote alot here befor, but who cares, please just contact me at

dgothe[at]sc[dot]rr[dot]com

I wanna learn more about your great product....

thanks a million times

August 2, 2005, 10:50 PM	#1
BluePhoenix Junior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 12	Power of flashlights Lets say I am in a room without lights, at night, and all I have is moonlight and typical street lights.... Now lets assume some one opens my dor, I grab for my flash light and shine in his face (about 4 - 5 feet away from dor).... how many lumens of light will I need to blind the man effectivly enough that I can bash his head, even though his plan was to shoot me? 3 flash lights in consideration: M6 Guardian -- http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/.../419/sesent/00 with one HOUR of 250 lumens and 20 min of 500... this light is very power full, and also has some flexibility to be used in a disaster time, when one would want more then just 20 min L2 LumaMax -- http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...0/prrfnbr/1141 this is the most flexible flash light I have seen... it provides 18 hours of 15 lumens, and 60 min of 100 lumens. Only 4.2 ounces... but is this 100 lumens enough to blind somebody? I dont know thus im asking 9P Original --- http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...3004/sesent/00 this flashlight is only 120 lumens and just 1 hour, if I choose the 200 lumens it will only be 20 min, thus making it useless for longer use. please tell me wich flash light you would choose: A. for this particular situation B. for a tactical flashlight thanks Oh and please also tell me how good u think these flashlights are as a weapon (to beat ppl :P) thanks

August 3, 2005, 12:05 AM	#2
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	I think you are buying into the Surefire campaign that a light beam is a weapon. It really is something of a bogus claim. Even if blinded by the light, he will be able to see one thing, the light. All he needs to do is to shoot at or toward the light and using spray and pray, he stands a very good chance of being successful in his attempt to shoot you, especially at such close range. As the bad guy, he has no concerns about collateral damage, hitting bystanders, or overpenetration. He doesn't have to play by the rules and since he is there to commit murder anyway, then why would he be concerned about these other issues? Shining a bright light into your attacker's eyes might cause him some problems and might slow his attack for a brief period of time, but those are not things I would want to count on happening. Of course, if you can break putrid wind on demand and in large volume, then that too migh slow him down some too, but I would not count on that either. Its a flashlight, not a phaser. I might be more swayed if Surefire was able to document a solid history where bright flashlights were successful as weapons in self defense against a goal-oriented attacker (like the guy on your porch wanting to kill you), but to my knowledge, no such documentation exists. If there are any documented cases, they must be few and far between. You would have to think that Surefire would be hyping such cases in their ads where their lights were used if they actually had any cases to hype. Its a flashlight, not a phaser. You cannot set your flashlight to stun like you can with a phaser (which is sci-fi, of course). __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

August 3, 2005, 10:46 AM	#7
Bo Hunter Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: New York Posts: 107	Streamlight or Others.. Just curious - I don't see much talk of Streamlight, Pelican or any other "high end" flashlight manufactureres on these boards. Is there any reason why? Everyone seems so caught up in Sure-Fire and I'm a bit confused as to why? What is it about Surefire that gets them so much attention? Are they THAT much better than the others? I see them as having expensive batteries and very limited run time. Of course, I'm looking at it as a flash light to use functionally as well. I guess if all I'm doing is "combat rolls" down my hall way using the intermittent flash pretending I'm blinding a bad guy before I do a round-house to kick the gun out of his hand followed by a "Jason Bourne" pen stab to his other hand.... Is there something about their construction that puts them over the top of the competition? It just seems like the prices are much higher, and in general, the run times are a bit shorter. Someone bring me up to speed...

August 3, 2005, 06:53 PM	#10
BluePhoenix Junior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 12	I wrote alot here befor, but who cares, please just contact me at dgothe[at]sc[dot]rr[dot]com I wanna learn more about your great product.... thanks a million times Last edited by BluePhoenix; August 3, 2005 at 09:50 PM.

August 3, 2005, 12:25 AM	#3
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	I think that part of the reason flashlights are regarded by some as effective in this manner is that it's a common reaction to shield one's face from the light beam, and/or put up a hand to block it. Some people even sort of lean away from the light. This can work to the advantage of the light-wielding defender. I myself WILL NOT be buying any flashlights that are not LED. I will not spend over a hundred dollars on an incandescent flashlight whose bulb is subject to breaking from being dropped, or used as an impact weapon. I contacted Mag Instruments recently and they responded to my query that they expect to be bringing LED Maglites to market in January 2006. But in the meantime, many companies are producing some damn fine LED flashlights, maybe not 250 lumens, but more than 60, and in many cases nearer to 100. I saw an ad for Sure Fire that showed a new LED model by them, as a matter of fact. Check out the ones by Inova. I'm probably going to buy myself an Inova T3 very soon, because I like what I've seen of it online. It's an 85 lumen LED light that runs a 3.2 watt LED for 2 hours of constant on at peak power, on lithium batteries. I have their tiny tiny X1 flashlight, which uses a single AA battery and is far less than 85 lumens, and it is uncomfortably bright to look directly into. -blackmind

August 3, 2005, 12:42 AM	#4
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	Any idea if one would have trouble getting one of these flashlights (Sure Fire, Inova, past airport security? They are not the kinds of flashlights designed to be impact weapons -- they are not D-cell Maglites. Are flashlights yet on the banned-from-flight list? :barf: Seems like just about everything else is. I suppose that if they are allowed, they'll make you demonstrate that it's full of batteries and not explosive putty or something. I sure would not like to have a $60 flashlight confiscated when I fly in September. -blackmind

August 3, 2005, 09:17 AM	#6
BluePhoenix Junior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 12	mhh, yes, you made a good point... but what about there LED model: http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...0/prrfnbr/1141 it isnt cheap, but it provides 100 Lumens and an option to run at 15 lumes for 18 hours, making it a flash light that can be used in the everyday use, not just tactical operations that last 20 minuts and I do have one LED flash light, it cost me 7 bucks... from what I can see its extremly bright.... its the size of a 2 AA maglight but I would say it is brighter and lasts longer.... does anyone know how many lumens the mag lights have, so I have some comperision Maybe its just the surefire adds that are getting to my mind, but those lamps sound affully BRIGHT.... I just dont have any comperisons.... and as for a combat flash light (aka a flashlight that u can beat ppl with) would you suggest a 6 D Mag Light? (I hope they make LEDs) UPDATE http://www.maglite.com/product.asp?psc=2AACELL the maglite mini is a handy every day flash light, and in my opinion it lights up a room prity damn well (aka very bright if u ask me)... its only 5 Lumens so 100 or 500 Lumens is alot of power, so maybe the sure fire ads have some to it mag lite just doesnt have anything extremly power full the the luma max that sure fire offers... however there batteries last :P and 100 Lumens makes a prity nice flood light ***Well, thanks for pointing to Inova... the T2 got me... semms like a prity usable compact flash light, and the body seems unbreakable to me, (leds dont break from shock)... so this I belive weould be an ideal weapon to carry on you and bash in somebodies head if neaded... however it only burns for 5 hours and I would like to know the weight... tooo light would suck

August 3, 2005, 11:39 AM	#8
black bear 84 Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2005 Posts: 246	For those guys wishing for a Maglite with a LOT of lumens, one that will effectively blind you opponent much better than any Surefire M-6 and one that will not cost MEGABUCKS. See this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...=125447&page=3 Now for those that want a comparison between the three lights, here is a shoot out. First the regular Maglite 3 "D" at 39 lumens Second the Surefire M-6 Guardian with the 500 lumens lamp Third, my own MAG 951 rechargeable with the 951 lumens Beamshot with the regular Maglite 3 "D" 39 lumens Beamshot with Surefire M-6 500 lumens Beamshot with black bear's MAG 951 lumens (rechargeable) Two more shots from 43 yards, the first with the Surefire M-6 500 lumens The second with my MAG 951 Beamshot with the Surefire M-6 500 lumens Beamshot with the MAG 951 (951 lumens) My MAG 951 been rechargeable can run for 30 minutes per charge (10 more than the Surefire M-6) and will run 500 hours before needing another $24.00 pack of rechargeable batteries. The Surefire M-6 will have spend $5,000.00 in batteries before ever reach 500 hours!!!! My light produce the same blindness in animals, they are "encandilated" by the light and don't move, the same effect than when you approach a deer in the middle of the road with your car!! black bear 84

August 3, 2005, 01:14 PM	#9
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	I'm glad you are considering the T2, BluePhoenix. I just ordered one of those and one of the T3, actually. I am really excited about them, since I already have the X1, which runs on a single AA battery and is quite bright for its size. So the T2 and T3 should be exceptionally bright. 85 lumens? It may not be "951," but for what I need it for, it's sure to be perfectly adequate. I have never had a flashlight that bright before, I believe. One thing I like a lot about the T2 and T3 is that the end cap has a press/momentary and click/constant on switch on the butt cap. My X1 has a twist for constant on switch, which I don't care much for. I just read something about a police agency that swears by the T2 as the best flashlight they've used. -blackmind