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Old February 14, 2009, 08:36 PM   #26
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To stay with the time frame, the only recorded and verified re:surveyed long shot of the day was on a Comanche Indian shot in the back at 1069yds by a buff hunter named Billy Dixon at the Battle of Adobe Walls.
While I've read various plausible distances for the range of the shot 1069yards isn't one of them. The number reported in the first edition of Dixon's wife's biography of Dixon was 1200 yards, in the second edition it was inflated to 1538 yards. Supposedly a surveyor measured the range and fixed the distance at 1028 yards, but it's hard to put a lot of credence in the surveyed value since the survey wasn't done until half a century after the fact--I would love to know how the surveyors determined the positions of the two participants.

I've also never read that the indian killed was shot in the back although I'm not sure what difference it would make under the circumstances. I've also never seen it verified that the indian was a Comanche and there were reportedly members of several different tribes involved.
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Old February 14, 2009, 09:58 PM   #27
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"Owing to this ability, the 45-70 provides a degree of lethality not generally found with other calibers, even ones producing much greater power. This is best evidenced by comparisons with the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum. As conventionally loaded with 500-grain expanding bullets, the 458 is notorious for its relatively shallow penetration. Consequently, when really heavy game is hunted, it is quite common for roundnose solids to be used. Unfortunately, roundnose solids tend to be slow to incapacitate big game. By comparison, the 45-70 can be loaded with blunt non-expanding hard-cast bullets that produce much deeper penetration than the 458 with expanding bullets, and cut a much larger wound channel than the 458 with roundnose solids. Also, the speed of incapacitation is much faster with a blunt non-expanding bullet than with any roundnose solid. Simply stated, proper hard-cast bullets effectively split the difference between under-penetrative expanding bullets and the slow to incapacitate roundnose solids.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/lineba...tion.tests.asp

OK: Lets start with his first statement:

458 Win Mag FMJ 500 2,260 47.0 n/a The bullet tumbled, hit the wood floor, and re-entered the paper.

One of Garretts penetrating Hammer heads:
45-70 Garrett Hammer Head 415 1,850 23.0 n/a Mushroomed and straight
Puts it performance wise right here:
480 Ruger LFN 306 1,058 25.0 7.5 (stopped 1/2� past the bone)
or here:
45x2 7/8� Sharps Lead 543 1,412 26.0 16.0
Year tested:2003

Appears when it hits something hard, the bullet mushrooms, and doesn't penetrate any more then another, 'under penetrating' soft point:
500 Nitro Express SP 570 2,150 25.0 n/a Mushroomed and straight
Guess I should really worry that the .500 Nitro Express is going to under penetrate, and not stop stuff:

500 Nitro Express Solid 570 2,150 48.0 n/a Tumbled and undamaged

Now, if we move up in weight, the Hammer Head sort of
works as described:
45-70 Garrett Hammer Head 530 1,550 55.0 n/a Front swaged out and tipped

Wonder if bullet weight, and casting hard enough, so that it doesn't expand, are the real keys?

What this bit information does show is that we do have cast bullets, even in handguns, that depending on weight and bullet design, will penetrate as well as solids in actual big game hunting rifles. That said, the amount of energy that is transfered, and the wound channel are clearly different.

Garrett's argument creates a straw man,
"As conventionally loaded with 500-grain expanding bullets, the 458 is notorious for its relatively shallow penetration. "

NO ONE I know is going to Africa with bad bullets, and loads in the 458 win mag. In fact, seating bullets out a little bit, or using Double Tap, or others, you can get 458 Lott type performance from the 458 Win Mag.

With the new bullet designs, there is no reason to let such garbage affect your choice, or delude you into thinking the 45-70 is really worth more then a 480 Ruger.
Barnes TSX bullets will not fail, and, if pushed too fast, the petals come off, and the shank penetrates like a flat nosed solid:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/tsx-bullet/
Barnes also makes a banded solid
that combines the strength of a solid Machined from homogenous copper/zinc alloy with the flat metplat Garrett gives so much credance to.

Finally, GS Custom makes solids that are far stronger then the old 458 bullets, and, when pushed faster, they just expand and penetrate more:


On the left in the picture are two 458 bullets that were fired into a steel drum filled with wet sand. Speeds were 2700 fps and 2300 fps from a 460 Weatherby rifle. The middle bullet picked up a layer of steel on the nose from the lid of the drum. The right hand bullet is the final production version of the bullet with the driving bandsoptimised for minimum pressure / maximum speed.


Also, you can get the very flat shooting, great feeding HV bullet, that acts as a softpoint, until it's moved too fast, and, they the petals break off, and, you have a full caliber,
shank going straight through the target:



Garrett has tried to do something that I really do understand. Wide metplat bullets, do penetrate, and cut a big hole.

Garrett is charging premium ammunition prices, 70-120 dollars for a box of 20, for cast bullet loaded ammunition, and, you can get those same cast bullets for .50-75 cents, and load them yourself.

The only Ammunition he recommends for elephant, rhino, hippo or cape buffalo is 120 dollars a box, and, uses HORNADY's Copper Clad Steel Jackedted Flatnose solid.

Those list for 53.00 for 50. So, you are paying roughly 100 dollars for a box, 20 rounds of 45-70 brass, primers and powder, not to mention it says Garrett on the box.

Conclusion:

Garett's ammunition is very expensive, and, he is charging
premium solid prices, for cast bullet loads. This is not unique. The large caliber pistol rounds are likewise an area
of over-pricing, due to a lack of competition.

The problem with cast bullets vs. monometal solids, or machined bullets are the consistency of the bullets produced. It is possible to cast a bullet, harden it just a little too much, and have the bullet shatter on impact, or break up, when it hits bone.

You don't have this problem with monometal solids.

My guess is you could get a custom run of loads, with real big game bullets, for what garrett is charging for Cast bullets.

His big game bullets have one thing in common with the
Nitro Express rounds: They are absurdly priced.

Phil Shoemaker, one of the more famous Alaskan bear guides just gave up his beloved 458 Win Mag for a .375 Ruger for backup this year.
Why? Free gun, free ammo, and, he maybe getting paid.

Why not get a hold of him, since he's probably scene more bears then most of us will in 200 lifetimes...
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Old February 14, 2009, 10:34 PM   #28
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If you could hold on to it, at 82 ft-lbs of recoil, my Ruger Maximum .510 will shoot 525's at 1550 fps, the same as Garett's 45-70 load.

Also, 600 grain round nose .510 solids are pretty much the standard for extreme stopping rifles. They provide the ability to break down elephant, to be quickly finished, in weird situations. How does Garrett get off making such absurd generalizations?

Also, the MOST important thing about a PH stopper rifle is that it feeds FLAWLESSLY, 100% OF THE TIME.

His bullet designs are NOT as good at feeding as a Barnes round nose solid, or even the rounded flat point, pictured above...
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Old February 14, 2009, 10:47 PM   #29
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Socrates, well said and my opinion is the same.

I don't buy the Garrett hype. That's marketing.
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Old February 15, 2009, 06:57 PM   #30
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Most of the hunters that I know and hunt with on-island use a .300 win mag or .338 win mag. I know a few folks that like the 45/70, but most use a .300 or .338... I actually know more people that use a .30/06 than a 45/70 on Kodiak Browns. I use what I've got; I've got a .30/06 and I'll be using it this spring for my bear hunt. A 45/70 will take them down, no doubt in my mind that it would probably do it better that a .30/06, but a lot of folks don't have a 45/70. However, a lot of people have a .30/06, and it's a lot cheapr to buy a box of 220 gr bullets than it is to buy a completely different gun for just one hunt every four years. (You can only take one Kodiak coastal brown bear per four regulatory years) Most people have some varient of a powerful handgun that they carry when fishing/hiking/etc. anyway, so they'll take it when hunting in case the rifle doesn't get the job done completely. You can bet your bottom dollar that my 10mm goes with me everywhere I go, loaded with 230gr DoubleTap WFNGC Beartooth rounds.
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Old February 16, 2009, 03:06 AM   #31
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Garrett is charging premium ammunition prices, 70-120 dollars for a box of 20, for cast bullet loaded ammunition, and, you can get those same cast bullets for .50-75 cents, and load them yourself.
Kinda sorta yes & no...

He's worked up the loads and verified in which firearms they will operate properly and in which they are safe. It appears that he's done and provided actual pressure measurements. He's also done testing to verify that his bullet alloy is suitable for the hardness he wants without being so hard that they will fracture. Finally, the bullets are Garrett designs, the results of his own penetration and accuracy testing, and I don't believe he sells them or the molds to cast them separately.

So there is some value added over loading your own. Is it worth the added cost? Everyone has to make that decision for himself.
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Old February 20, 2009, 03:48 AM   #32
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Well, John, we didn't charge 120 dollars a box for 20 rounds of BRI sabots, that had been through the same sort of testing, and, that by the way, look like the basis for his Hammerhead rounds in the first place.

Looks to me like he priced his stuff to be able to go to Africa every year, we didn't...
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Old February 21, 2009, 12:10 AM   #33
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Well, John, we didn't charge 120 dollars a box for 20 rounds of BRI sabots, that had been through the same sort of testing, and, that by the way, look like the basis for his Hammerhead rounds in the first place.
How long did you stay in in business?
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Old February 23, 2009, 03:46 PM   #34
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Vern was in business long enough to sell the patent. I think Winchester has it now, and buries it as a LEO item.

Those BRI sabots gave better ballistics then anything Garrett sells, penetrated exceptionally well, and, at over an inch long, if they started tumbling they really left a nasty hole.

Initial loads, 500 grains, 45 Caliber, 1900 fps out of a full house shotgun.


Also made them a bit flatter, and lighter. I liked the .50 Caliber...
Now, does Garett's ammo look like the BRI front, or not?

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Old February 24, 2009, 08:46 AM   #35
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I plan on using my Shiloh 45/70 on hogs, free range wood buffalo bison and on black bear. A Grizz is a different matter. I would prefer a magnum repeater with a flatter trajectory
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Old February 24, 2009, 10:04 PM   #36
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I use a 54 cal hawkin rifle with a 12 guage coach gun with a magnum 00 buck as a follow up. I always drop them with the .54 cal with no problems. A 45/70 is more than sufficient to kill a bear. I get in close and only go for head shots. i hate the sound of them moaning.
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Old February 27, 2009, 10:38 PM   #37
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I own a 45-70 lever action marlin, and I would easily say that this rifle could be used for ANYTHING in N/A. I would use this to hunt any animal from griz,polar,walrus,hippo,elephant. This gun was built for the "larger than life" animals.
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Old February 28, 2009, 09:04 PM   #38
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Each to their own. If I was hunting that stuff, I'd pick a .510 Van Horn. .510 Caliber bullet, 600 grains barnes solid or X bullet, at 2150 fps. This is the limit of what I can shoot accurately, and, it flattens elephants, breaks elephant leg bones at close range, and, will shoot up, into the brain when one has you on the ground, and is trying to stomp and tusk you...
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Old March 3, 2009, 01:12 AM   #39
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Socrates

What do you hunt? I've heard there is a decent (if that's a good thing) feral hog population in California. We used to see deer on Camp Pendleton.
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Old March 3, 2009, 09:08 PM   #40
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I don't, except for the varmits. Should get out with the boys.
Love venison and pig...
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Old March 8, 2009, 05:29 AM   #41
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There is a difference between kill and stop. Since I know the .475 and .500 JRH, with 420-440 grain bullets will go through 5-6 feet of buffalo, and they work about the same as a .375 H&H, the 45-70, loaded to similar specs is going to do the same.

The problem arises when people try and say the 45-70 is a 'stopper'. It's not. There is a sizeable difference between a 400 and 500 grain bullets on game, just as there is a huge difference between 600 grains and 500 grains.

The main appeal of the 45-70 is the light guns you can carry it in. Likewise, the 458 Win Mag can be had in some lightweight rifles as well. Given the choice, I'd rather be using a soft point designed for dangerous game, weighing 500 grains, then a cast bullet.
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Hmmmmm Context is everything. A .45-70 is a perfectly adequate Stopper when loaded to modern levels on the right game. It might not be the best elephant gun, but will stop the game being discussed.
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Old March 8, 2009, 10:09 PM   #42
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458Win
one of us

Posted 08 February 2008 22:36 Hide Post
Folks can choose to listen to the "expert' of their choice and are free to use whatever caliber they want.
The 30-06 was the most popular guides rifle for nearly fifty years and worked just fine for the man who could shoot.I have used mine to kill quite a few large Brown bears and still say that anyone who claims it is ineffective has either not used one - or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship. I still carry one much of the time.
I do use a 458 Win - and have for the past twenty five years - when guiding Brown Bear hunters as my shooting consists in cleaning up messes made by folks who could not competently use the big magnum they were using.

Choose a rifle you can shoot well, choose a good bullet and practice with it.

And for what it is worth "living year around in the bush" does not mean never going any place. I just spent the last two weeks at the SCI and SHOT shows and am currently visiting clients for two weeks before heading back to Alaska.



"The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell

Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
You might get a hold of Phil Shoemaker. He's been guiding in Alaska for 25 years.

You can also contact him through accuratereloading.com
His screen name is 458Win

He's a famous Alaska Bear guide, and, his choice is a .458 Winmag.

Rob Leahy, a holstermaker up there, was using a .375 H&H for taking out the trash.

It's too bad Ken(Wildalaska) didn't weigh in on this, since he's in Alaska...You might PM him, since he sells guns in Alaska...

Last edited by Socrates; March 8, 2009 at 10:15 PM.
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Old March 8, 2009, 10:40 PM   #43
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The first I ever read of hard-cast, large-meplat bullets was in articles on hunting as written by Ross Seyfried. Somewhere in the vicinity of 20 to 25 years ago.

He used a .454 Casull on an Australian water buffalo. I think the bullet was around 300 to 330 grains. IIRC, there was full penetration on a cross-body shot. I really don't recall if any second shot was needed beyond possibly a coup de grace.

So, I can see where somebody would use this sort of bullet in a rifle. From comments above, the critical issue seems to be the quality control of the casting.
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Old March 8, 2009, 11:50 PM   #44
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Art: Close. It was an asian water buffalo, and, a .475 Linebaugh. He shot it going away, with 1" long chopped down solids. He hit the animal well twice, but, because he couldn't crimp the Trophy Bonded bullets properly, no groves for crimping, the two in the gun jumped crimp, locking his gun up.

He went to just LBT's after that.

He told me on the phone he got off 5 shots, 45 Colt, loaded at 454 levels, 360 grains at 1550 fps, and, it just barely stopped the cape buffalo that was going to kill him..

I've got just about every article he ever wrote, so, If I'm wrong, drop me the G&A issue, and, I'll look it up.

If you look at the Linebaugh penetration tests, when the Garrett Hammerheads expand, they loose about 50% of their penetration ability.
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Old March 9, 2009, 12:00 AM   #45
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A former employer of mine (machine shop) and big game hunter (Africa) had us making solid bullets out of 360 free-cut brass. The crates would arrive a few mos. after he returned so I assumed that they worked OK.

I should also mention that he was a P.E. and rolled his own. I'm not recommending this to anyone, just saying that it is possible with the right know-how.

On the 1K+ shot on the Indian (I'm part Lakota, Blackfeet and Cherokee), the guy was supposedly taunting the Buff hunters. Bad for him and maybe a very lucky shot made by someone else, I know that I've had a few.
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Old March 9, 2009, 12:36 AM   #46
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Punch bullets do it right. Crimp grove and texture on the outside to grip the case mouth, IIRC.

Last I heard, it was illegal to make monometal bullets, since they qualified as armour piercing, thanks to some law. The work around is you have to drill the base out, put another substance like lead in, and then sell them. Impala, Rhino, GS etc don't have that problem...
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Old March 9, 2009, 04:39 AM   #47
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you brought up phil. It was his daughter who killed a large brown with a 686 and heavy .357's. If that wasn't adequate for the job I don't think Phil would have let her try.

Phil also has used a 1895 Winchester as his back up in various '06 based chamberings so he must feel those are sufficient as well.

Have you ever shot anything with a stoked 45 70? There doesn't seem to be much difference in terminal performance between a well made 400 gr. and a 500 grainer.

Further more I would like to know who deleted my previous post
asking about Mr. Socrates hunting experience? I am tired of deleted posts.
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Old March 9, 2009, 05:48 AM   #48
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Monolithic bullets are just fine. Asquare still make bronze monolithic solids and a Barnes x bullet is monolithic copper if you want AP that doesn't look like it the old Hornady tungston core steel jacketed will do a fair job.
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Old March 9, 2009, 03:42 PM   #49
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The question was:
Quote:
I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America. In Georgia, for sure. But, has anyone ever depended on one for grizzlies, or polar bears, or kodiak bears, as a defense or for hunting?

If in the situation, would you feel that you had enough gun? Is it really used that much in Alaska? How much of its name is marketing technique, and how much is function? I can only speculate, I'd like to hear from those in the know. - Best
I'm just trying to answer the questions asked. I don't know anyone that uses the 45-70 as a bear hunting or backup gun. I know a few folks that use the .500 JRH, and other pistols, and a few rifles, custom made, for Alaska, for bears, hunting and as carry while fishing.

The only guys I know from the net that actually hunts stuff
in Alaska are Phil Shoemaker, and Rob Leahy, and only from internet posts.

Phil posted:
Quote:
The 30-06 was the most popular guides rifle for nearly fifty years and worked just fine for the man who could shoot.I have used mine to kill quite a few large Brown bears and still say that anyone who claims it is ineffective has either not used one - or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship. I still carry one much of the time.
I do use a 458 Win - and have for the past twenty five years - when guiding Brown Bear hunters as my shooting consists in cleaning up messes made by folks who could not competently use the big magnum they were using.

Choose a rifle you can shoot well, choose a good bullet and practice with it.
So, from that, I take it hunting with a 30-06, if you can shoot, is fine for brown bears, and, trying to back someone who can't, he likes the .458Win.

Rob Leahy owns Simply Rugged Leather, in Alaska. His take out the trash gun is a .375 H&H, last time I wrote him.
Since no one here has ACTUALLY used the 45-70 for what the OP asked, I provided information on people that have. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

By the way, Mr. Shoemaker's recommendations are about what the Parks department came up with. IIRC, they suggest first the 458 Win mag, and, if you can't shoot that, a 375 H&H. Next was a 12 gauge with our slugs, IIRC.
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Old March 9, 2009, 04:13 PM   #50
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I think a .450/700 "UBER GOOBER" is more suited fer grizleebars....
Brent

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