Reaming Pietta chamber throats?

[Poodleshooter]

My 1858 Pietta's cylinder throats run about .445-.449. The bore diameter is
.451",so the balls are hitting the forcing cone at a very reduced size. This has the result of giving terrible accuracy. Has anyone ever reamed out the cylinder/chamber throats on their BP revolver? I don't have a lathe so this might be a gunsmith project if it's even remotely feasible dollar-wise.

[Smokin_Gun]

Ordered my 1851 .36 Navy today and ...page 5, go to that thread and read what Wayner wrote he's the guy to talk to.

[SRG]

It's very feasable dollar-wise and recommended. I have to do it to Rugers all the time as they are notoriously undersized. If your bore measures .451 then you'll want to use a .452 ball.

[Wayner]

SRG,are you referring to Ruger chamber throats in the cartridge revolvers and reaming with that tool by CLYMER to open the chamber throats to .452? or .454? for cast bullets? You aren't referring to the percussion Old Army Ruger right? Poodle shooter, if your chambers are different sizes then it wouldn't hurt to ream the smaller ones to all be what the largest one is. .449? If your bore is a normal size Pietta at .451-2 then with .449 chambers would shoot well as most of the Pietta shooters attest to. You could ream the chambers to be equal to the barrels grooves and get some consistant accuracy and going .001-.003 over the size of the barrel grooves with the chambers would make for an accurate shooter in my humble opinion. It's your call though. Making all the chambers uniform at the size of the largest chamber of .449 would probably more than surfice for good accuracy. All things considered such as the barrel isn't plagued with tight spots and tool chatter and the forcing cone is concentric with the axis of the bore and the muzzle crown is proper ect. ect.as in there are other reasons a revolver can be having accuracy problems and the loading proceedure is one of them. You know,use a good consistant FFFg powder like Blackpowder. Compress all the chambers the same when loading without overly compressing. Use a ball size that shaves lead when pressed into the chambers so the ball is tight. Check the end of the loading plunger to see that it swags lead of the loaded ball up against the chamber walls so the ball is tight(like a firm crimp on a revolver cartridge case) to let the powder get a good uniform burn ect. ect. ect. ect.

[Poodleshooter]

The chambers on mine vary some. It's around .445-.449 as far as the spread. I get really bad accuracy at even 15 yds. I've basically run out of options.
My real question is how the heck do I ream a cylinder on a percussion gun? If it's lathe work, I'm SOL unless I pay to have it done. This pietta is pretty beat up,so i'm still wondering if it's worth it. I had to re-time it,as it came from the factory. It was so bad that the hammers started chewing up the rear of the cylinders when it was fouled.
I shoot it with Goex FFFg,and my loading is consistent. I usually shoot 20-25grs of FFFg in it. It shaves a nice round ring around .451" round balls when they seat. I use crisco to seal the bore sometimes,but it's really not necessary due to the good seal.
Now that it's timed,it's got a decent action. It just won't shoot for beans.

BTW, does anyone know how to remove the barrel on an 1858 Remington?

[Wayner]

Poodle shooter,I'd look down the barrel when the gun is unloaded of course and when it's clean and see by the reflection off the cylinder face if the cylinder is out of alignment with the "grooves". You can see if you look close.Take your time, find each groove down there at the other end while shining a small flashlight down there. Maybe your gun needs a little more timing if the cylinder is out of alignment with the barrel grooves. Kinda sounds like it.Make sure that when it's locked into battery that the bolt is in the cylinder notches well every time on all six notches. See if a little pressure can turn the cylinder out of battery when it should be locked up tight. You can ream a chamber by using a straight flute, four flute chucking reamer sold at machine shop supply houses. You can use a drill press if you have a good vise on it and can true it up and center it up well.

[Wayner]

Forgot to say that maybe you should try using a cleaning rod and cleaning after each shot, one chamber at a time loaded and see how it shoots when it's clean for each shot.If it's better than just clean after each cylinder fired. Just a nylon cleaning brush with a cloth wrapped on it wet with solvent to clean it up some. Not sparkling clean but just so the rifling isn't caked with fouling.The lube over the balls at loading can help soften the fouling.

[gmatov]

poodleshooter,

As I just bought a Rem in a box, with pipewrench tooth marks on the barrel, which I spent time trying to remove, DON'T use a pipewrench.

After I got the barrel as cleaned up as it was going to get, I went to the action, the frame, and found that he had gripped it somewheres behind where he should have. Twisted the frame. Cyl pin won't go in, cyl won't go in, rammer binds, barrel points off to the right.

Grip the frame in a well padded vise, copper jaws, if you have them, sheet lead if you can get that, and grab it at the root of the barrel. Don't go farther back, you'll twist the frame window.

It would be nice if you could get a barrel wrench, with a .700 (Edit: Meant to say octagon.) hex insert, maple or something. I wouldn't advise a Crescent wrench, either, as, if the barrel is tight, the narrow jaws CAN mash over the corners of the barrel. You wouldn't like the look of that.

The other option is to take a good piece of rope, a couple feet long, bend it in half, wrap it around the barrel 4 or 5 turns, counterclockwise, stick a 2 foot piece of steel rod in the loop left with padding under it and crank away. Once you break it free, it will just spin out..

It might be a good idea, if this barrel is going back in, to put a "truth mark", a tiny scribe line, maybe, so that you can screw it back in to the same point, else your sights will be off to either side.

Cheers,

George

[Remington kid]

Before you do anything to that barrel I would simply crown it. Any gun thats in the shape you descripe could very well have a nick or two on the crown and there aint no way it will ever shoot a good pattern.Check the breach end also. It's also possible that whoever tried to use a pipe wrench on the barrel may have bent it slightly.The steel on these guns is not all that hard.

[gmatov]

Mike,

The barrel's straight, no bend, no twist.

Frame's another story. Might take a pic and try to post, just to let people know what CAN happen, if you try to do this the way it was done.

It wasn't the pipe wrench that did the frame damage, it was grabbing the frame the wrong way, at the wrong place.

Poodleshooter,

Why DO you want to take the barrel off? Just curious.

Cheers,

George

[Wayner]

Gmatov, what make or manufacturer is the Remington in a box? Uberti?

[Oldelm]

I think this is the one you're referring to,George...right?

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=7135112

[gmatov]

That's her, Old elm, and she's a 2004 Pietta.

Drag marks on the cylinder, couple blunt tooth marks in the frame ring above the cyl pin hole, not too bad, still there, have to take off too much metal to remove them.

Just took some pics, will shrink and post them later, gotta go to a fleamarket just now.

This is in answer to you, too, Wayner, Pietta.

Cheers,

George

[gmatov]

If you guys are interested, at all, I have to post those pics 1 or 2 at a time. When I try to resize too much, my pics go to hell, so each pair is near the limit.

First is a shot down the frame from the front, I am pretty close to center as you can see from the sight groove and the crescent of the bottom of the barrel opening.

Piece of key stock clamped to the barrel ring and to frame behind recoil shield. Caliper says both those areas are parallel so shows the twist.

Here's the pics. Oh, 1 barrel pic, too, each shot of the frame, keep the posts down, still gonna take 3 to get 'em all.

Cheers,

George

[gmatov]

Second pair, another barrel/grip combo.

BTW, I slugged the barrel, drove it most of the way through to a piece of dowel rod, mashed the ball to fill the grooves, then removed the bottom dowel and drove it the rest of the way out. Light thumb pressure to push the slugged ball into a chamber. Damned near dead nuts chamber/groove match. I like that part.

Cheers,

George

BTW, if you look at the hammer slot, near vertical, it might show the twist as good as the straight edges do. This is an edit.

[gmatov]

And the last, the tooth marks on the barrel ring. Shoud have cropped more, to just show the dings, but this shows that the frame LOOKS good, twisted or no.

I do not think this piece ever had a round fired from it. I have no idea why the guy pulled it apart. He wanted to cut the barrel down?

Regardless, mebbe I paid too much for a cyl with nipples and a set of springs and the other solid parts of the gun, but, what the hell?

Cheers,

George

[Poodleshooter]

Poodleshooter,

Why DO you want to take the barrel off? Just curious.

Sheer curiosity.
I've had the rest of the gun apart from when I had to retime it. It went out of time quickly,then the original hand spring broke off during a shooting session.

[Smokin_Gun]

I found out by trying to do the same thing more than once expecting differant results, that if you accidently or purposely try bending the handspring back...you have doomed it's exsistance and it will break. I'm not sayin any of you personally just in a retorical sense. I think I have done this at least 3 times and once recently...havin to make a new one. Just passin on my experiances...

But I'd think twice about pullin Rem barrel even when I had to.

[gmatov]

99% of us have torn them down to the last screw JUST to clean them. Stocks go to the side, the rest is in itty bitty pieces in a pan of hot soapy water.

The only thing not unscrewed is the barrel.

For one thing, if you DO pull the barrel, you don't know if you can get it re-aligned to be either perfectly perpinducalar, as to the sight and the top flat, to be back in position, ie, you might now shoot left or right. You've broken a tight fit, eroded some metal, retighten, with metal gone, will have to go a few degrees, well, mebbe 1, past where it was, to snug it up.

I'd advise against it, not because it can't be did, but because you just might have to go past top dead center to get the top flat and the sight aligned.

If that's the case, you go to a good smith to take a hair, like the better part of a thread off the face to get 'er back to top dead center.

I won't even mention grabbing the sumbitch with the wrong tool and screwing things up royally.

Cheers,

George

[Poodleshooter]

Would this work for reaming out the cylinder throat? http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/sto...ROATING+REAMER

I can always go with .454 balls, or even use light cast soft lead .452 bullets from my .45auto molds in order to get a decent seal on the chamber.
I just can't see how these undersized (smaller than the bore) cylinder throats are good for accuracy.

[Smokin_Gun]

In a word obtrusion and .440" lands...add fowling it's sealed.

[gmatov]

Reading the specs on the Brownell's ad, you should be able to do it.

.448 pilot, .4525 chamber, .454 or .457 ball probably. .451 or .452 groove diameter, slight squish.

75 bucks? Good luck. That's a ton of money for a reamer.

Cheers,

George

[Wayner]

PoodleShooter, with that reamer made for,"cartridge" cylinders and sized for them you could only ream a short ways down into the chamber. About the depth of the throat in a cartridge cylinder. Going to a place like MSC machine tols supply you can get "chucking reamers" in increments of .0005. Get a straight flute, four flute chucking reamer and use it in a drill press or take it to a machine shop with the cylinder and figure how deep the ball would ever go with the powder charge you use and have it reamed a hair deeper. Or........ just get a reamer to use to size all the chambers to the same size. The size of the largest chamber you have. .449?? That would be about .003 smaller than the grooves and would be fine with some obstuation and all. Take them all to .451 about half way down into the chambers too.A chucking reamer costs about $10-$12 and can be used in a drill press if the person takes their time and trues up the cylinder to ream on center and all. Gotta have one of those little machinists vises maybe.My mill doesn't have electricity or I'd do it for ya. I thus had to take some to a machine shop with the appropriate reamers and the guy did them for about $30 a piece. I took about ten of them in there. I do have a reamer custom made that has a pilot on the front of it but the pilot is fixed and intregal with the reamer and looks alot like the one in the picture. It has a pilot of .450 so I have to use a chucking reamer first to make the chambers ,450 and then do the hand ream with the custom tool but it reams to .458 .Tell ya what. You sent me the cylinder and I'll run it to that shop for ya. You'd have to pay the machine shop about $30 and pay the shipping to me and back to you but I'd get it done fer ya. I have to go there to get about three other Rem cylinders reamed anyhow. Would reaming to .452 half way into the cylinder be good?

[Wayner]

I have taken barrels out of Piettas Remingtons and it's no biggy.Gotta have a good vise and pad the jaws with leather and account for any taper and clamp er down and use a piece of hardwood made into a wrench to fit into the frame window that fits and puts the force evenly across the frame to crank er out. A gunsmith friend I had(died) said that Uberti must use some kind of industrial strength thread lockers because no matter how he tried it the barrels of Uberti Rems don't come off.Not even with heat. The gunsmith friend did accurizing jobs to Colts and Remingtons percussions and for the "Supreme" Remington Accurizing job would fit a Badger barrel to the gun. He didn't ream the chambers though until he talked to me about it and then added that to the package. My package didn't include barrel changing to Badger barrels. No lathe. I didn't think it was needed anyhow. A Pietta barrel is fine with a little lapping. I just did the dovetailed front sight, reshaped the rear sight(open them up -lowered it with the Colts), took the creep out of the trigger, reamed the chambers to match the barrels grooves or go .002 over groove, smooth and deepen and make concentric with the bore the forcing cone with a special piloted tool, and the same with the muzzle crown and the customer did the filing of the taller front sight to the load they used and drifted the front dovetailed sight for any windage adjustment. Never had any complaints. That seemed to accurize the guns well enough. I think most of the Remintons are pretty accurate the way they come and a little finese just adds more satisfaction when shooting since they feel better with a "no-creep" trigger and are more consistant accurcy wise with the chambers at groove diameter and the sights regulated to hit point of aim with the best load. Some people just liked the chambers to be uniform to the biggest one and were satisfied with that less removal of metal from the chambers.Colts were more finicky with the barrel and wedge and all that. If the barrel can move with firing the accuracy isn't as good. The Colts needed a simple shim put on the front top of the arbor to make the barrel tight on it and stop the movement that hurts the wedge and all. Colt arbors don't have to be bottomed out in the barrels arbor hole to be tight and parallel to the axis of the bore if the shim on the front top of the arbor is there in the barrels arbor hole with the arbor to tighten the barrel to the arbor.With the shim on the front top of the arbor the barrel goes up to the frame at the bottom of the barrel there and stops rock solid just like the arbor was bottomed in the arbor hole.Makes a difference with the Colts for sure. Makes it a pain to reload preloaded cylinders though and it's best not to keep taking the barrel of the shimmed arbor except for cleaning. The barrel is poped off the arbor when it's tight because of the shim by putting the loading plunger between the chambers and using the leverage of the loading lever to pop it off the arbor.It's a little tricky putting the barrel on a shimmed arbor but no biggy once a person does it a coupla times. I'm rambling again. Gotta go. See ya Pards.

[Oldelm]

Wayner,.........thanks for that ramble,bud. I just love yer rambles. Have another cup of coffee and come back on and ramble all ya want......