Finally pics of our M1 Carbine Paratrooper!!

rangerryda · August 26, 2011, 07:09 PM

The moment we've all been waiting for is upon us. I took almost 80 pictures of this thing to cover every nook and cranny. You can check them out here:

http://s1133.photobucket.com/albums/...ell/?start=all

Some were before cleaning so don't mind the filth :P

If there is any experts that can point out if there is any deficiencies in regards to authenticity, don't hesitate. I would like to know the complete history of all the markings and stampings. Perhaps someone with a great book could enlighten me? I know the basics about how many were made, when this one was made, SN background, and it's conceived purpose but all the little symbols and numbers are beyond me. Most of all, if you could put a price on it (even a rough estimate) that would be fantastic. It will stay in the family forever but for insurance and gee-whiz reasons I would like to know

Enjoy!

madcratebuilder · August 27, 2011, 08:08 AM

Some pic's of the back side of the butt plate, need to see the forging/casting marks. Very difficult to tell from the photos but the stock may be a Italian issue from the 50/60's, maybe not.

The rest looks very nice. If it's a USGI stock it's a 2k+/- rifle, if not maybe 1k+. Look at the completed auctions on gunbroker and look at what actually got bids and sold.

jamesicus · August 28, 2011, 09:18 AM

Picture #34 is significant - IO stamping is correct (Inland Overton):

The Overton Company was the only manufacturer of M1A1 stocks.

James

rangerryda · August 28, 2011, 10:09 AM

^ Thanks!

jamesicus · August 28, 2011, 11:14 AM

There is a great reference book available "THE M-1 CARBINE A Revolution in Gun-Stocking" by Grafton H. Cook, II and Barbara W. Cook that covers in exhaustive detail the story of the S.E. Overton Company (the O in the Inland IO stamping) which produced by far the greatest number of carbine stocks and handguards -- almost three million sets -- as the primary US Government sub-contractor during WW2. Most of their output was used by the Inland Division of General Motors Corporation in fulfilling their carbine contracts -- just about all Inland carbines have Overton stocks and handguards. Overton purchased the walnut blanks from the Hartzell Hardwoods Co. BTW, Hartzell is the only one of the four WW2 manufacturing companies involved here that is still in business -- Inland Division of General Motors, Richardson Tool Co. and the S.E. Overton Co. are all now defunct.

For the past several years I had pondered why I remember newly issued carbines I encountered in service invariably having walnut stocks & handguards that possessed an overall rich brown coloration and yet I had not been able to unearth any information relating to wood staining operations during the manufacturing process. (I am referring to documented primary source data -- not anecdotal remembrances).

I found the answer in this book! In brief: The supplier of Walnut for Overton, Hartzell Hardwoods Inc., Piqua, Ohio -- http://www.hartzellhardwoods.com/history.htm -- used pressurized steam to open the pores of the wood in order to blend the light colored sapwood with the dark brown heart wood thereby producing the even rich brown coloration I reference above throughout the walnut -- a universally standard industry practice pioneered by Hartzell. The process is touched upon on their website.

Any light colored wood areas discovered during manufacture were stain darkened to match by Overton workers using an air-brush (Operation 38). Stocks and handguards were finished by immersing in a vat of Raw Linseed Oil (Operation 37).

The above procedures are documented by Overton for finishing the stocks and handguards they produced. I presume other Manufacturers would have used essentially the same procedures also (taking the lead from Overton) but I cannot find any information on this.

James

madcratebuilder · August 28, 2011, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Picture #34 is significant - IO stamping is correct (Inland Overton):

The Overton Company was the only manufacturer of M1A1 stocks.

James

The IO stamp is often faked because of the potential money these paratrooper stocks can bring. You have to look at the type of leather cover, the material the rivets are made from and the casting marks on the butt plate. Even the leather and rivets are often faked but you can't fake the casting marks.

Anytime a few insignificant stamp marks in wood can double or triple the value of an item you need to be careful.

The Italians issued thousands of the paratrooper stocks. There are gunsmiths offering services to change the leather, rivets and re-park for a authentic appearance. That is why the casting mark is important. Unscrupulous people well go to great lengths to fake things. I have had good friends cheated out of a lot of money by these crooks. That's why I'm so adamant about it.

rangerryda's stock does appear to be 100% correct and original from the photo's provided.

jamesicus, thanks for that book title, I'm off to amazon to find it.

jamesicus · August 28, 2011, 11:30 AM

Just FYI:

Check out my US CARBINE CAL .30 M1 Field Maintenance Notes at: http://jp29.org/carbinewo.htm

James

rangerryda · August 28, 2011, 06:54 PM

Yeah the only thing I've yet to dig up is the folding stock's whole ordeal. It doesn't match the pattern on the buttplate of any I could find online but appears very old so maybe it was a period replacement. Either way, it still looks and functions great.

Chris_B · August 30, 2011, 06:12 PM

Given the background of the carbine, it seems less likely that it could have had non GI replacement parts

Price? Well, I doubt you'd sell it due to the family history. But value...4 grand as a guess. Depending on all sorts of little things of course. Non-arsenal rebuilt M1A1s are exceedingly rare

rangerryda · August 31, 2011, 09:15 AM

^ That's what I've been hearing

Maybe I'll get my Dad on this forum so he can enlighten everyone to the history of his father during the war and how treasures like this (and many many more) made their way into our family. He knows all of the little specifics of the missions and locales his troop carrier squadron participated in and when.

madcratebuilder · August 31, 2011, 10:37 AM

If you check Gunbroker you well see correct M1 paratroopers listed in the 2-4K range. When you view completed auctions only and look at rifles that actually changed hands you'll see a price in the area of 2.5k. That's a significant increase from the $250-350 they once cost.

A family heirloom is priceless.

Chris_B · August 31, 2011, 04:49 PM

respectfully, I don't base values on asking prices from auction sites. I'm using what I see in collecting circles and what I hear from experts, second hand of course, since it's a quote or part of an article

rangerryda · August 31, 2011, 06:54 PM

Insurance loss value and retail "change of hands" value are two different things also. Just because I could get it insured for 4k doesn't mean I could sell it for that... just an example.

ohen cepel · August 31, 2011, 06:59 PM

To me the completed auctions on gunbroker are a good indicator. Not the list prices, which may never sell, but the items which actually sold.

Have to be registered and signed in to do the search for those.

rangerryda · September 1, 2011, 08:02 AM

A close enough word of mouth estimate is all I needed personally. For a more formal quote, a professional may be required but as I've said before, it's staying in the family. I was just curious in the meantime because we have a few other antique firearms that we are researching. For example we took out the .32 short Iver Johnson Hammerless Safety breaktop 5 shot the other week just to see if it would still fire. Structurally, it's in great shape but the left grip is cracked (no biggie). I'm not sure of the mechanisms (even though it was very clean inside) because out of the 10 attempted shots, only 5 fired and there was definitely a substantial ding in the primer on every non fired cartridge. Perhaps it's the ammo, gun, or both but either way, it still fires (on it's own schedule haha) and was a very unique break from my tactical type range days

amd6547 · September 1, 2011, 11:28 AM

CMP was auctioning correct M1A1's...I believe many went for $3 to 4000.
Actually, the OP should register on the CMP forum...those guys really know their carbines.

rangerryda · September 1, 2011, 03:49 PM

Maybe I will

Chris_B · September 2, 2011, 04:08 PM

Might also let the guys at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...ex.php?act=idx take a peek at it. With all due respect to the CMP forums, guys who are collectors frequent the US militaria site as well

August 26, 2011, 07:09 PM	#1
rangerryda Member Join Date: August 20, 2011 Posts: 36	Finally pics of our M1 Carbine Paratrooper!! The moment we've all been waiting for is upon us. I took almost 80 pictures of this thing to cover every nook and cranny. You can check them out here: http://s1133.photobucket.com/albums/...ell/?start=all Some were before cleaning so don't mind the filth :P If there is any experts that can point out if there is any deficiencies in regards to authenticity, don't hesitate. I would like to know the complete history of all the markings and stampings. Perhaps someone with a great book could enlighten me? I know the basics about how many were made, when this one was made, SN background, and it's conceived purpose but all the little symbols and numbers are beyond me. Most of all, if you could put a price on it (even a rough estimate) that would be fantastic. It will stay in the family forever but for insurance and gee-whiz reasons I would like to know Enjoy!

August 31, 2011, 06:59 PM	#14
ohen cepel Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 1999 Location: Where they send me Posts: 1,013	To me the completed auctions on gunbroker are a good indicator. Not the list prices, which may never sell, but the items which actually sold. Have to be registered and signed in to do the search for those. __________________ He who dares wins. NRA Life Benefactor Member

September 1, 2011, 11:28 AM	#16
amd6547 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Posts: 2,313	CMP was auctioning correct M1A1's...I believe many went for $3 to 4000. Actually, the OP should register on the CMP forum...those guys really know their carbines. __________________ The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now.

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August 27, 2011, 08:08 AM	#2
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Some pic's of the back side of the butt plate, need to see the forging/casting marks. Very difficult to tell from the photos but the stock may be a Italian issue from the 50/60's, maybe not. The rest looks very nice. If it's a USGI stock it's a 2k+/- rifle, if not maybe 1k+. Look at the completed auctions on gunbroker and look at what actually got bids and sold.

August 28, 2011, 09:18 AM	#3
jamesicus Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 56	Picture #34 is significant - IO stamping is correct (Inland Overton): The Overton Company was the only manufacturer of M1A1 stocks. James

August 28, 2011, 10:09 AM	#4
rangerryda Member Join Date: August 20, 2011 Posts: 36	^ Thanks!

August 28, 2011, 11:14 AM	#5
jamesicus Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 56	There is a great reference book available "THE M-1 CARBINE A Revolution in Gun-Stocking" by Grafton H. Cook, II and Barbara W. Cook that covers in exhaustive detail the story of the S.E. Overton Company (the O in the Inland IO stamping) which produced by far the greatest number of carbine stocks and handguards -- almost three million sets -- as the primary US Government sub-contractor during WW2. Most of their output was used by the Inland Division of General Motors Corporation in fulfilling their carbine contracts -- just about all Inland carbines have Overton stocks and handguards. Overton purchased the walnut blanks from the Hartzell Hardwoods Co. BTW, Hartzell is the only one of the four WW2 manufacturing companies involved here that is still in business -- Inland Division of General Motors, Richardson Tool Co. and the S.E. Overton Co. are all now defunct. For the past several years I had pondered why I remember newly issued carbines I encountered in service invariably having walnut stocks & handguards that possessed an overall rich brown coloration and yet I had not been able to unearth any information relating to wood staining operations during the manufacturing process. (I am referring to documented primary source data -- not anecdotal remembrances). I found the answer in this book! In brief: The supplier of Walnut for Overton, Hartzell Hardwoods Inc., Piqua, Ohio -- http://www.hartzellhardwoods.com/history.htm -- used pressurized steam to open the pores of the wood in order to blend the light colored sapwood with the dark brown heart wood thereby producing the even rich brown coloration I reference above throughout the walnut -- a universally standard industry practice pioneered by Hartzell. The process is touched upon on their website. Any light colored wood areas discovered during manufacture were stain darkened to match by Overton workers using an air-brush (Operation 38). Stocks and handguards were finished by immersing in a vat of Raw Linseed Oil (Operation 37). The above procedures are documented by Overton for finishing the stocks and handguards they produced. I presume other Manufacturers would have used essentially the same procedures also (taking the lead from Overton) but I cannot find any information on this. James

August 28, 2011, 11:30 AM	#7
jamesicus Member Join Date: January 25, 2010 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 56	Just FYI: Check out my US CARBINE CAL .30 M1 Field Maintenance Notes at: http://jp29.org/carbinewo.htm James

August 28, 2011, 06:54 PM	#8
rangerryda Member Join Date: August 20, 2011 Posts: 36	Yeah the only thing I've yet to dig up is the folding stock's whole ordeal. It doesn't match the pattern on the buttplate of any I could find online but appears very old so maybe it was a period replacement. Either way, it still looks and functions great.

August 30, 2011, 06:12 PM	#9
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	Given the background of the carbine, it seems less likely that it could have had non GI replacement parts Price? Well, I doubt you'd sell it due to the family history. But value...4 grand as a guess. Depending on all sorts of little things of course. Non-arsenal rebuilt M1A1s are exceedingly rare

August 31, 2011, 09:15 AM	#10
rangerryda Member Join Date: August 20, 2011 Posts: 36	^ That's what I've been hearing Maybe I'll get my Dad on this forum so he can enlighten everyone to the history of his father during the war and how treasures like this (and many many more) made their way into our family. He knows all of the little specifics of the missions and locales his troop carrier squadron participated in and when.

August 31, 2011, 10:37 AM	#11
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	If you check Gunbroker you well see correct M1 paratroopers listed in the 2-4K range. When you view completed auctions only and look at rifles that actually changed hands you'll see a price in the area of 2.5k. That's a significant increase from the $250-350 they once cost. A family heirloom is priceless.

August 31, 2011, 04:49 PM	#12
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	respectfully, I don't base values on asking prices from auction sites. I'm using what I see in collecting circles and what I hear from experts, second hand of course, since it's a quote or part of an article

August 31, 2011, 06:54 PM	#13
rangerryda Member Join Date: August 20, 2011 Posts: 36	Insurance loss value and retail "change of hands" value are two different things also. Just because I could get it insured for 4k doesn't mean I could sell it for that... just an example.

September 1, 2011, 08:02 AM	#15
rangerryda Member Join Date: August 20, 2011 Posts: 36	A close enough word of mouth estimate is all I needed personally. For a more formal quote, a professional may be required but as I've said before, it's staying in the family. I was just curious in the meantime because we have a few other antique firearms that we are researching. For example we took out the .32 short Iver Johnson Hammerless Safety breaktop 5 shot the other week just to see if it would still fire. Structurally, it's in great shape but the left grip is cracked (no biggie). I'm not sure of the mechanisms (even though it was very clean inside) because out of the 10 attempted shots, only 5 fired and there was definitely a substantial ding in the primer on every non fired cartridge. Perhaps it's the ammo, gun, or both but either way, it still fires (on it's own schedule haha) and was a very unique break from my tactical type range days

September 1, 2011, 03:49 PM	#17
rangerryda Member Join Date: August 20, 2011 Posts: 36	Maybe I will

September 2, 2011, 04:08 PM	#18
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	Might also let the guys at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...ex.php?act=idx take a peek at it. With all due respect to the CMP forums, guys who are collectors frequent the US militaria site as well