PPU 38s&w in old revolvers?

RoyalWe · February 4, 2016, 02:20 AM

So I have an H&R 38s&w top break that as far as my research has told me is an auto ejecting 2nd model manufactured somewhere between 1890 and 1904, serial number under the topstrap 043137. I found a box of PPU ammo at Cabela's so I got it not thinking much of it, however now I'm wondering if the modern ammo is safe in this pistol. I recently got it off gunbroker for $60, the seller said they had recently fired it and it does seem to be in fully functional condition. I did not think to ask what ammo they had fired through it. I have previously had a S&W new departure/safety hammerless that I had dated manufacture in 1898 and it fired the fiocchi factory loads without issue. Anyone have any sort of experience with these? I realize it's not advisable to shoot a lot, and I don't plan on it, I'm mostly just wondering if I can use this box of rounds before it goes to hang on the wall ad infinitum.

CaptainO · February 4, 2016, 02:57 AM

H&R's weren't the most robust revolvers back in those days. Were it mine, I would shoot up the box, then have it inspected by a qualified gunsmith. He can tell you how much wear the gun has undergone and how much life remains.

Enjoy it with caution. Some of those early revolvers wore quickly and tended to fly open upon firing!

Just be careful.

g.willikers · February 4, 2016, 09:13 AM

If it's going to be a wall hanger after just one box of ammo, why even risk it with modern ammo?

kilimanjaro · February 4, 2016, 11:27 AM

Have it checked by a smith before shooting, not after. You're looking for safety issues.

It should handle the ammo, but have it looked at beforehand.

Do look into a reloading setup. You can pay for even a Dillon 550B with a few hundred rounds of hard-to-find calibers. Another advantage is you can load the cartridges down a little bit and take it easy on your antiques. It's not like you're shooting it for self-defense practice or a competition match, it's just for fun.

CaptainO · February 4, 2016, 10:23 PM

The Lt had a beautiful new H&R break-top chambered for the .38 S&W:

While walking up a trail near a rice paddy, a King Cobra raised up and threatened the troops. The Lt. drew and fired 5, 146 grain round nose lead bullet into the serpent's "hood". The snake "soaked up" all five rounds and remained. A Sargeant drew his Colt .357 Magnum loaded with 125 grain JHP and blew the snake's head apart.

The Lt sold his revolver within the week.

RoyalWe · February 4, 2016, 10:46 PM

The tale of the paper target that thought the 38s&w and the .357 did about the same.
That being said if anyone was foolish enough to bring one of these to 'Nam, it would be an Lt. lol.

CaptainO · February 5, 2016, 03:42 AM

There's nothing wrong with the .38 S&W, but the Vietnamese Cobra was more resiliant than many human beings! The VietCong were strong for the bandy-legged people they were. Living on little but chicken, fish or rice (the meat was there if they were lucky). You had to hit them COM with everything you had, to make them go down. (The .45 ACP and 5.56 x 45 did a fair-to-middlin' job).

Shotguns were a "plus" in the 'tropical rain forest" that constituted most of the terrain. (Aside from the rice paddies). Sometimes the heavy vegetation soaked up the 5.56 and prevented it from stopping the drugged-up Cong from either esaping or attacking. The .45's helped, because they couldn't soak up too many of those without dropping. Sometimes they were to doped-up to know what happened. The .45 usually "jogged their memory".

A properly loaded .38 S&W is nothing to sneeze at In solid-frame revolvers, the .38 S&W reaches up into the lower region of the .38 S&W Special. And that's the truth!

RoyalWe · February 6, 2016, 06:11 PM

Seems like a waste of a firearm seeing how you can have a 38spl or even 357 in roughly the same size gun. The old victory models are neat, but I'd rather have a 1917, same asthetic with a round that is awesome too. I'm mostly stuck with the 38s&w because I love top breaks, I think they're the most attractive looking revolvers, plus they're ambidextrous and I'm a lefty shooter.

CaptainO · February 6, 2016, 07:34 PM

RoyalWe : i don't understand, are your perceptions of caliber and sex organs inexorably linked? The .38 S&W served in WW2 aquitting itself rather well. The beasts of the field are often mor resiliant than modern humans.

We learned a lesson in Brodacsting School: "The public is an idiot". This means that humans can be readily fooled into belieing that they are more vulnerable than they actually are. They are often easily convinced of it.

James K · February 6, 2016, 09:17 PM

CaptianO; Huh? Who mentioned sex?

------------------------------

If the .38 S&W ammo is within SAAMI pressure specs, it should be OK in that H&R, provided the gun itself is in good condition. Some folks just assume that any old gun, especially one made in the black powder era, will blow up with modern ammo. But that is not generally true as ammo makers keep modern ammo at or under the pressure levels of BP ammo. I don't suggest firing the old guns a lot; most were not designed for a lot of shooting even with BP ammo. But a few shots to see if the old gun works should be no problem.

FWIW, I fixed dozens of those old .32 and .38 revolvers, and always test fired them with at least a cylinder of modern ammo. I never had any blow up, come apart or break. Admittedly, I would not work on guns that were obviously dangerous, so I was working with reasonably safe guns.

Jim

CaptainO · February 6, 2016, 09:58 PM

Jim: My allusion was connected with the "serious social work" connected with every firearm owned. It seems as if their own personal potency is connected to the power of their armament. (A terrible case of magnumitis).

It's a fact that both the .32 S&W Long and the .38 S&W (even break-top units) have laid many a person in their grave. Aside from this, they are absolutely marvelous for small game and a relaxing afternoon of target practice. Pest eradication, small and large, have been a primary purpose fo these "underpowered" cartridges.

They are still being used for this purpose today.

James K · February 6, 2016, 11:42 PM

Gee, can I buy a .500 S&W instead of Viagra?

Jim

CaptainO · February 7, 2016, 12:45 AM

Whatever trips your trigger!

Jim243 · February 7, 2016, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Gee, can I buy a .500 S&W instead of Viagra?

LOL, sounds good to me. In 50 years of shooting, I ended up with 6 kids, 4 from my own barrel and 2 grand children. I used a silencer often in my youth to keep the blasts down. Now, I never fired a blank in all that time, but I just don't go to the range that often now. Maybe the 500 S&W would help.

Stay safe.
Jim

CaptainO · February 7, 2016, 01:41 AM

In more than 100 years the automobile manufacturers have finally introduced a device that effectively reduces noise, it is installed inside the car. and fits over her mouth!

SaxonPig · February 7, 2016, 11:14 AM

The Lt was missing the target. A 38 S&W will kill any snake.

The British fought WW II with the 38 S&W and I have not heard reports of complaints.

CaptainO · February 7, 2016, 12:37 PM

i have always liked the .38 S&W in it's "modern' load levels. Most commercial .38 S&W load levels are of the light variety because of the likelihoodof such ammunition to be fired in the early break-top revolvers manufactured to fire black powder ammunition.

Today, the solid-frame .38 S&W revolvers (Colt, S&W and Ruger variants) can fire .38 S&W loads that rival the lower-end .38 S&W Special loads. When properly tailored for the application, the .38 S&W can deliver a heck of a "nasty-gram".

Do some research and you'll see what I mean.

RoyalWe · February 7, 2016, 12:45 PM

Confidence that it likely won't blow up. I wasn't too worried as from my knowledge most factory producers of this round keep the pressures low for just this reason. I have to admit I've never tried shooting anything other than paper or pop cans with this round, but I have heard it's great for small game. My only concern would be that it'll make a pretty big hole in a small critter, and I usually try to only kill what I'll eat and eat what I kill. Though if you had say a groundhog problem, I can see this doing fine for getting those taken care of.

CaptainO · February 7, 2016, 09:45 PM

I think that it would be fun to see someone take a Taurus .380 revolver and re-cut the barrel and cylinder for the .38 S&W (yes, It can be done). After said conversion has been accomplished, then load the .38 S&W with hand-cast 125 grain hard cast lead to some 850 fps in the little cases. This would beat the daylights out of the .380.

James K · February 7, 2016, 11:46 PM

"The British fought WW II with the 38 S&W and I have not heard reports of complaints."

That is kind of ambiguous; there were no complaints about screen doors on submarines, either.

Actually, the British didn't do a lot of shooting with their revolvers. The ammo issue was 12 rounds, with another 12 in unit supply. That was supposed to last the war; the paucity of ammo also explains why there was no huge supply of surplus .380 or .455 after the war. It is not surprising that the Tommies resorted to expedients like staking the rims of 9mm for use in the revolvers.

Jim

February 4, 2016, 02:20 AM	#1
RoyalWe Member Join Date: January 31, 2014 Location: Eugene OR Posts: 62	PPU 38s&w in old revolvers? So I have an H&R 38s&w top break that as far as my research has told me is an auto ejecting 2nd model manufactured somewhere between 1890 and 1904, serial number under the topstrap 043137. I found a box of PPU ammo at Cabela's so I got it not thinking much of it, however now I'm wondering if the modern ammo is safe in this pistol. I recently got it off gunbroker for $60, the seller said they had recently fired it and it does seem to be in fully functional condition. I did not think to ask what ammo they had fired through it. I have previously had a S&W new departure/safety hammerless that I had dated manufacture in 1898 and it fired the fiocchi factory loads without issue. Anyone have any sort of experience with these? I realize it's not advisable to shoot a lot, and I don't plan on it, I'm mostly just wondering if I can use this box of rounds before it goes to hang on the wall ad infinitum.

February 4, 2016, 02:57 AM	#2
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	Don't worry. H&R's weren't the most robust revolvers back in those days. Were it mine, I would shoot up the box, then have it inspected by a qualified gunsmith. He can tell you how much wear the gun has undergone and how much life remains. Enjoy it with caution. Some of those early revolvers wore quickly and tended to fly open upon firing! Just be careful. Last edited by CaptainO; February 4, 2016 at 10:11 PM.

February 4, 2016, 09:13 AM	#3
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	If it's going to be a wall hanger after just one box of ammo, why even risk it with modern ammo? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

February 4, 2016, 10:23 PM	#5
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	There's an old story about the Lt. in Vietnam. The Lt had a beautiful new H&R break-top chambered for the .38 S&W: While walking up a trail near a rice paddy, a King Cobra raised up and threatened the troops. The Lt. drew and fired 5, 146 grain round nose lead bullet into the serpent's "hood". The snake "soaked up" all five rounds and remained. A Sargeant drew his Colt .357 Magnum loaded with 125 grain JHP and blew the snake's head apart. The Lt sold his revolver within the week.

February 4, 2016, 10:46 PM	#6
RoyalWe Member Join Date: January 31, 2014 Location: Eugene OR Posts: 62	Then there's the other tale... The tale of the paper target that thought the 38s&w and the .357 did about the same. That being said if anyone was foolish enough to bring one of these to 'Nam, it would be an Lt. lol.

February 4, 2016, 11:27 AM	#4
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Have it checked by a smith before shooting, not after. You're looking for safety issues. It should handle the ammo, but have it looked at beforehand. Do look into a reloading setup. You can pay for even a Dillon 550B with a few hundred rounds of hard-to-find calibers. Another advantage is you can load the cartridges down a little bit and take it easy on your antiques. It's not like you're shooting it for self-defense practice or a competition match, it's just for fun.

February 5, 2016, 03:42 AM	#7
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	There's nothing wrong with the .38 S&W, but the Vietnamese Cobra was more resiliant than many human beings! The VietCong were strong for the bandy-legged people they were. Living on little but chicken, fish or rice (the meat was there if they were lucky). You had to hit them COM with everything you had, to make them go down. (The .45 ACP and 5.56 x 45 did a fair-to-middlin' job). Shotguns were a "plus" in the 'tropical rain forest" that constituted most of the terrain. (Aside from the rice paddies). Sometimes the heavy vegetation soaked up the 5.56 and prevented it from stopping the drugged-up Cong from either esaping or attacking. The .45's helped, because they couldn't soak up too many of those without dropping. Sometimes they were to doped-up to know what happened. The .45 usually "jogged their memory". A properly loaded .38 S&W is nothing to sneeze at In solid-frame revolvers, the .38 S&W reaches up into the lower region of the .38 S&W Special. And that's the truth!

February 6, 2016, 06:11 PM	#8
RoyalWe Member Join Date: January 31, 2014 Location: Eugene OR Posts: 62	Solid frame 38 s&w Seems like a waste of a firearm seeing how you can have a 38spl or even 357 in roughly the same size gun. The old victory models are neat, but I'd rather have a 1917, same asthetic with a round that is awesome too. I'm mostly stuck with the 38s&w because I love top breaks, I think they're the most attractive looking revolvers, plus they're ambidextrous and I'm a lefty shooter.

February 6, 2016, 07:34 PM	#9
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	RoyalWe : i don't understand, are your perceptions of caliber and sex organs inexorably linked? The .38 S&W served in WW2 aquitting itself rather well. The beasts of the field are often mor resiliant than modern humans. We learned a lesson in Brodacsting School: "The public is an idiot". This means that humans can be readily fooled into belieing that they are more vulnerable than they actually are. They are often easily convinced of it.

February 6, 2016, 09:17 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	CaptianO; Huh? Who mentioned sex? ------------------------------ If the .38 S&W ammo is within SAAMI pressure specs, it should be OK in that H&R, provided the gun itself is in good condition. Some folks just assume that any old gun, especially one made in the black powder era, will blow up with modern ammo. But that is not generally true as ammo makers keep modern ammo at or under the pressure levels of BP ammo. I don't suggest firing the old guns a lot; most were not designed for a lot of shooting even with BP ammo. But a few shots to see if the old gun works should be no problem. FWIW, I fixed dozens of those old .32 and .38 revolvers, and always test fired them with at least a cylinder of modern ammo. I never had any blow up, come apart or break. Admittedly, I would not work on guns that were obviously dangerous, so I was working with reasonably safe guns. Jim

February 6, 2016, 09:58 PM	#11
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	Jim: My allusion was connected with the "serious social work" connected with every firearm owned. It seems as if their own personal potency is connected to the power of their armament. (A terrible case of magnumitis). It's a fact that both the .32 S&W Long and the .38 S&W (even break-top units) have laid many a person in their grave. Aside from this, they are absolutely marvelous for small game and a relaxing afternoon of target practice. Pest eradication, small and large, have been a primary purpose fo these "underpowered" cartridges. They are still being used for this purpose today.

February 6, 2016, 11:42 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Gee, can I buy a .500 S&W instead of Viagra? Jim

February 7, 2016, 12:45 AM	#13
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	Well, Jim... Whatever trips your trigger!

February 7, 2016, 01:41 AM	#15
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	In more than 100 years the automobile manufacturers have finally introduced a device that effectively reduces noise, it is installed inside the car. and fits over her *mouth!*

February 7, 2016, 11:14 AM	#16
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	The Lt was missing the target. A 38 S&W will kill any snake. The British fought WW II with the 38 S&W and I have not heard reports of complaints.

February 7, 2016, 12:37 PM	#17
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	i have always liked the .38 S&W in it's "modern' load levels. Most commercial .38 S&W load levels are of the light variety because of the likelihoodof such ammunition to be fired in the early break-top revolvers manufactured to fire black powder ammunition. Today, the solid-frame .38 S&W revolvers (Colt, S&W and Ruger variants) can fire .38 S&W loads that rival the lower-end .38 S&W Special loads. When properly tailored for the application, the .38 S&W can deliver a heck of a "nasty-gram". Do some research and you'll see what I mean. Last edited by CaptainO; February 7, 2016 at 04:27 PM.

February 7, 2016, 12:45 PM	#18
RoyalWe Member Join Date: January 31, 2014 Location: Eugene OR Posts: 62	Thanks for the votes of confidence Confidence that it likely won't blow up. I wasn't too worried as from my knowledge most factory producers of this round keep the pressures low for just this reason. I have to admit I've never tried shooting anything other than paper or pop cans with this round, but I have heard it's great for small game. My only concern would be that it'll make a pretty big hole in a small critter, and I usually try to only kill what I'll eat and eat what I kill. Though if you had say a groundhog problem, I can see this doing fine for getting those taken care of.

February 7, 2016, 09:45 PM	#19
CaptainO Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 489	I think that it would be fun to see someone take a Taurus .380 revolver and re-cut the barrel and cylinder for the .38 S&W (yes, It can be done). After said conversion has been accomplished, then load the .38 S&W with hand-cast 125 grain hard cast lead to some 850 fps in the little cases. This would beat the daylights out of the .380.

February 7, 2016, 11:46 PM	#20
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"The British fought WW II with the 38 S&W and I have not heard reports of complaints." That is kind of ambiguous; there were no complaints about screen doors on submarines, either. Actually, the British didn't do a lot of shooting with their revolvers. The ammo issue was 12 rounds, with another 12 in unit supply. That was supposed to last the war; the paucity of ammo also explains why there was no huge supply of surplus .380 or .455 after the war. It is not surprising that the Tommies resorted to expedients like staking the rims of 9mm for use in the revolvers. Jim

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