double barrel shotgun quality-recomendations

Robinson · January 25, 2012, 06:21 PM

What makes a browning o/u or sxs that much better than a cz? Was looking at a bobwhite sxs or any of the browning o/u but after some research should i spend more money? I have no problem spending up to 3000.00 for a quality 28 gauge, but wish american companies could give me what I want.

zippy13 · January 25, 2012, 06:47 PM

wish american companies could give me what I want.

Kolar is a nice American made O/U, but it starts at about three times your budget.

BigJimP · January 25, 2012, 07:12 PM

Browning and Beretta have long set the standard ...for reliable, strongly built O/U's ...and in the case of Browning, in their Citori line of guns ...they have about 26 models - ranging in price from $ 1,500 - $4,000 or so ....

Can you get as good a gun from companies like CZ, etc ....maybe, maybe not...

Its not just fancy wood....its about the steel, the durability of the barrel to receiver connection, are the barrels "regulated" so they have the same point of impact ( on a lot of the lesser expensive guns, no - they don't / and
I've seen some of them off by more than a foot at 21 yds...and that's a lot), the triggers...how do they break and reset...or are they gritty and stiff...

resale value is an issue ...with Browning and Beretta commanding ...and maintaining their values ...well after they've had 200,000 shells thru them, if they're taken care of.

Kolar is certainly a well made gun ...if you want a good American made gun...but entry level pricing is around $ 10,000 or so ....

CZ, Ruger, Mossberg, etc ...a lot of them are made overseas....Turkey, etc ... but they might work for you ..../ hard to tell. But what I do know - is a Browing or a Beretta --- regardless of which model you pick ...will still be there doing everything you ask it to do ...after 250,000 - 500,000 shells..or more....with few, if any, problems.

In terms of Browning ...not all the Citori line of guns ...will work out for everyone. They have a number of models ...with different weight, stock dimensions, etc.

Personally, in a 28ga ...O/U ...I shoot a Citori XS Skeet model with 30" barrels that I've been very happy with. The 28ga and .410 in that model are special order guns ...built on the 20ga receiver...but its a gun that will last in my family for many generations ...at around $ 3K if you can find one. Other Citori models ....like the Lightning series, the 625 series, etc come in 28ga as well...some in 28" or 30" barrels ...depends on what you want.

oneounceload · January 25, 2012, 07:22 PM

For a nice 28, you could buy from CSMC, an American company whose quality is heads and tails above anything from the Turkish made CZ guns.
Do not confuse CZpistol quality with their Turkish price point shotguns.

Another option for a decent 28 is a Spanish one from folks like Zabalas Hermanos on the low end through Ugartechea and on up to AyA

.300 Weatherby Mag · January 27, 2012, 02:05 AM

Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon III... I like Brownings but for whatever reason I find it difficult to find a new one that fits me...

Panfisher · January 29, 2012, 03:50 PM

Durability is a big issue in the price of double guns. I owned two 20 gauges when i was younger, a side by side FIE and an o/u by Boito. Both were fine guns and I shot the living daylights out of them, both got traded off when they got so loose and internals were malfunctioning that they were no longer trustworty. Had it been a Browning, Ruger Red label, Beretta I would likely still own at least one of them. Many competetive shooters will have a favorite Browning/beretta rebuilt after enough shots fired. I doubt if I will wear out any more guns, as I don't often buy the cheaper ones any more, but will if the reason is right.

Robinson · January 29, 2012, 05:59 PM

Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize a quality double could go 200,000 plus. I'll look at the beretta too. I got a friend that wants me to look at a benelli 28 gauge ultra light. This gun will be used for 4-6 months of the year only for rabbits and grouse.

mssurrey · January 29, 2012, 10:56 PM

what about a winchester 101 - i believe that's now US made (although i could be wrong!). i do know early ones from the 80s were japan made and very good quality

oneounceload · January 30, 2012, 04:52 PM

101s are made in Belgium in the same FN plant as the Belgian Brownings, but NOT to the same level

mssurrey · January 30, 2012, 07:23 PM

In the same factory you say? ... well well well - you learn something new everday!

I wonder do they use the same parts or whether the Winchesters are a 'value' line using cheaper parts

darkgael · January 31, 2012, 05:21 PM

Big Jim:

Quote:

in a 28ga ...O/U ...I shoot a Citori XS Skeet model with 30" barrels

If you don't mind....what does that gun weigh with the 30" bbls?
Pete

oneounceload · January 31, 2012, 09:16 PM

Belgian Browning START about 18000, Belgian Winchesters are about 1800 - with that zero difference, what do YOU think?

mssurrey · January 31, 2012, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Belgian Browning START about 18000, Belgian Winchesters are about 1800 - with that zero difference, what do YOU think?

I think we must be talking at cross purposes here. As far as I'm aware Browning Citori's start at around $1500-1750 and Winchester 101's at around $1250-1500 ???

Which Browning shotguns are you referring to - even custom Brownings I wouldn't have thought would reach that price point ?

PS sorry to highjack the thread - but we are discussing the merits of those O/Us in the OP's price range. In answer to his question, I would say a Browning Citori if funds stretch to $3000. No doubt a better 'heirloom' with better quality parts.

.300 Weatherby Mag · February 1, 2012, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Which Browning shotguns are you referring to - even custom Brownings I wouldn't have thought would reach that price point ?

A new Belgian made Superposed is a Custom shop item.... They start at $18,000 and go up...

oneounceload · February 1, 2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

As far as I'm aware Browning Citori's start at around $1500-1750

Citoris are made in Japan, not Belgium.

IrishBluEyes51 · February 1, 2012, 12:53 PM

i have a Savage Fox model b 12 ga. nothing fancy, but its serviceable not very expensive either

oneounceload · February 1, 2012, 02:23 PM

I have its cousin, the BSE in 20 gauge. Decent enough, but I find it heavy and somewhat bulky - at least for a 20. Hopefully your 12 has somewhat better balance

mssurrey · February 2, 2012, 12:33 AM

Quote:

A new Belgian made Superposed is a Custom shop item.... They start at $18,000 and go up...

That's news to me.

Quote:

Citoris are made in Japan, not Belgium.

I didn't know the Citori's are made in Japan.

So let me get this straight
Winchester 101 used to be made in Japan but are now made in Belgium in the same factory as custom Brownings (but obviously to a completely different standard). And 'standard' Brownings are now made in Japan ?
What that seems to mean is that if you buy Belgian it should only be a custom piece otherwise buy japanese for a decent quality off the shelf one - is that about the sum of it?

oneounceload · February 2, 2012, 03:21 PM

not really in the same factory, same country - Belgium. FN makes Winchesters in Belgium and had Miroku make Brownings in japan -where they have been made for about 40 years.

I am not sure if the current Browning custom shop in Belgium is handled by Lebeau Courally or actually at FN's facility.

Or course, Parker's were US made until they went away and Winchester had the "Reproduction" made in Japan - many of those are worth more than the originals.

It may be that boxlocks, rifles etc. are made at FN while the sidelocks and double rifles are handled by LC

PetahW · February 2, 2012, 03:41 PM

I wanted another American made double, too - after a 16ga Parker VH Skeet Gun & an A.H.Fox Grade A 20ga, I ran down an older 28ga Ithaca (worth every penny I paid, and light as a feather)

.

BigJimP · February 3, 2012, 07:19 PM

Darkgael,

missed your note until today ....the Citori XS Skeet models I have in 28ga and in .410 are both made on the 20ga XS Skeet receiver ..with 30" barrels they weight right at 7.5 lbs...( same as a 20ga version ). I'll drop you a private note...so you don't think I ignored you ...sorry.

bamaranger · February 4, 2012, 12:24 AM

I read these prices and my head spins. The double was once an icon in the American field, now a good new one costs 3x or more what I paid for my last 4wd, used.

No wonder the pump and auto are popular.

Robinson · February 5, 2012, 02:14 PM

Found a benelli ultralight 20 gauge handled it and found the handling to be suburb. Still want the 28 but none found in my area. Then a browing u/o. I liked the way handled, looked solid, loved the classic look but felt for about $2700.00 should have better wood and better engraving. Then online I saw the benelli legacy for about $2000.00 Haven't seen one in person but liked the engraving, AA wood, two tone finish. Plus I'm not sure I want backbored barrels on the browning. Not a big deal just in case I need to use a slug. But $2000 for a semi? Right now I could flip a coin and go with either one.

zippy13 · February 5, 2012, 03:02 PM

The double was once an icon in the American field

True, but most of those icons were hardware store specials, not quality arms. They were the R-870Ex/M-500s of their day.

oneounceload · February 5, 2012, 06:55 PM

And some were great, Parker, Fox and LeFever, to name a few. but they got expensive to make compared to the cheap pump, and that still holds true today. A new AH Fox from CSMC will generally start around $15,000 and go up from there

January 25, 2012, 06:21 PM	#1
Robinson Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Location: Maine Posts: 77	double barrel shotgun quality-recomendations What makes a browning o/u or sxs that much better than a cz? Was looking at a bobwhite sxs or any of the browning o/u but after some research should i spend more money? I have no problem spending up to 3000.00 for a quality 28 gauge, but wish american companies could give me what I want.

January 25, 2012, 07:12 PM	#3
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Browning and Beretta have long set the standard ...for reliable, strongly built O/U's ...and in the case of Browning, in their Citori line of guns ...they have about 26 models - ranging in price from $ 1,500 - $4,000 or so .... Can you get as good a gun from companies like CZ, etc ....maybe, maybe not... Its not just fancy wood....its about the steel, the durability of the barrel to receiver connection, are the barrels "regulated" so they have the same point of impact ( on a lot of the lesser expensive guns, no - they don't / and I've seen some of them off by more than a foot at 21 yds...and that's a lot), the triggers...how do they break and reset...or are they gritty and stiff... resale value is an issue ...with Browning and Beretta commanding ...and maintaining their values ...well after they've had 200,000 shells thru them, if they're taken care of. Kolar is certainly a well made gun ...if you want a good American made gun...but entry level pricing is around $ 10,000 or so .... CZ, Ruger, Mossberg, etc ...a lot of them are made overseas....Turkey, etc ... but they might work for you ..../ hard to tell. But what I do know - is a Browing or a Beretta --- regardless of which model you pick ...will still be there doing everything you ask it to do ...after 250,000 - 500,000 shells..or more....with few, if any, problems. In terms of Browning ...not all the Citori line of guns ...will work out for everyone. They have a number of models ...with different weight, stock dimensions, etc. Personally, in a 28ga ...O/U ...I shoot a Citori XS Skeet model with 30" barrels that I've been very happy with. The 28ga and .410 in that model are special order guns ...built on the 20ga receiver...but its a gun that will last in my family for many generations ...at around $ 3K if you can find one. Other Citori models ....like the Lightning series, the 625 series, etc come in 28ga as well...some in 28" or 30" barrels ...depends on what you want. Last edited by BigJimP; January 25, 2012 at 07:19 PM.

January 29, 2012, 10:56 PM	#8
mssurrey Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2008 Location: Sunny MichiGUN Posts: 273	what about a winchester 101 - i believe that's now US made (although i could be wrong!). i do know early ones from the 80s were japan made and very good quality __________________ Me. We. - Muhammad Ali

January 30, 2012, 07:23 PM	#10
mssurrey Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2008 Location: Sunny MichiGUN Posts: 273	In the same factory you say? ... well well well - you learn something new everday! I wonder do they use the same parts or whether the Winchesters are a 'value' line using cheaper parts __________________ Me. We. - Muhammad Ali

February 4, 2012, 12:24 AM	#22
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,318	geez I read these prices and my head spins. The double was once an icon in the American field, now a good new one costs 3x or more what I paid for my last 4wd, used. No wonder the pump and auto are popular.

January 25, 2012, 06:47 PM	#2
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	wish american companies could give me what I want. Kolar is a nice American made O/U, but it starts at about three times your budget.

January 25, 2012, 07:22 PM	#4
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	For a nice 28, you could buy from CSMC, an American company whose quality is heads and tails above anything from the Turkish made CZ guns. Do not confuse CZpistol quality with their Turkish price point shotguns. Another option for a decent 28 is a Spanish one from folks like Zabalas Hermanos on the low end through Ugartechea and on up to AyA

January 27, 2012, 02:05 AM	#5
.300 Weatherby Mag Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2008 Posts: 1,777	Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon III... I like Brownings but for whatever reason I find it difficult to find a new one that fits me...

January 29, 2012, 03:50 PM	#6
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	Durability is a big issue in the price of double guns. I owned two 20 gauges when i was younger, a side by side FIE and an o/u by Boito. Both were fine guns and I shot the living daylights out of them, both got traded off when they got so loose and internals were malfunctioning that they were no longer trustworty. Had it been a Browning, Ruger Red label, Beretta I would likely still own at least one of them. Many competetive shooters will have a favorite Browning/beretta rebuilt after enough shots fired. I doubt if I will wear out any more guns, as I don't often buy the cheaper ones any more, but will if the reason is right.

January 29, 2012, 05:59 PM	#7
Robinson Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Location: Maine Posts: 77	Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize a quality double could go 200,000 plus. I'll look at the beretta too. I got a friend that wants me to look at a benelli 28 gauge ultra light. This gun will be used for 4-6 months of the year only for rabbits and grouse.

January 30, 2012, 04:52 PM	#9
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	101s are made in Belgium in the same FN plant as the Belgian Brownings, but NOT to the same level

January 31, 2012, 09:16 PM	#12
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Belgian Browning START about 18000, Belgian Winchesters are about 1800 - with that zero difference, what do YOU think?

February 1, 2012, 12:53 PM	#16
IrishBluEyes51 Member Join Date: January 27, 2012 Posts: 56	i have a Savage Fox model b 12 ga. nothing fancy, but its serviceable not very expensive either

February 1, 2012, 02:23 PM	#17
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	I have its cousin, the BSE in 20 gauge. Decent enough, but I find it heavy and somewhat bulky - at least for a 20. Hopefully your 12 has somewhat better balance

February 2, 2012, 03:21 PM	#19
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	not really in the same factory, same country - Belgium. FN makes Winchesters in Belgium and had Miroku make Brownings in japan -where they have been made for about 40 years. I am not sure if the current Browning custom shop in Belgium is handled by Lebeau Courally or actually at FN's facility. Or course, Parker's were US made until they went away and Winchester had the "Reproduction" made in Japan - many of those are worth more than the originals. It may be that boxlocks, rifles etc. are made at FN while the sidelocks and double rifles are handled by LC

February 2, 2012, 03:41 PM	#20
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	I wanted another American made double, too - after a 16ga Parker VH Skeet Gun & an A.H.Fox Grade A 20ga, I ran down an older 28ga Ithaca (worth every penny I paid, and light as a feather) .

February 3, 2012, 07:19 PM	#21
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Darkgael, missed your note until today ....the Citori XS Skeet models I have in 28ga and in .410 are both made on the 20ga XS Skeet receiver ..with 30" barrels they weight right at 7.5 lbs...( same as a 20ga version ). I'll drop you a private note...so you don't think I ignored you ...sorry.

February 5, 2012, 02:14 PM	#23
Robinson Member Join Date: February 21, 2005 Location: Maine Posts: 77	Found a benelli ultralight 20 gauge handled it and found the handling to be suburb. Still want the 28 but none found in my area. Then a browing u/o. I liked the way handled, looked solid, loved the classic look but felt for about $2700.00 should have better wood and better engraving. Then online I saw the benelli legacy for about $2000.00 Haven't seen one in person but liked the engraving, AA wood, two tone finish. Plus I'm not sure I want backbored barrels on the browning. Not a big deal just in case I need to use a slug. But $2000 for a semi? Right now I could flip a coin and go with either one.

February 5, 2012, 03:02 PM	#24
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	The double was once an icon in the American field True, but most of those icons were hardware store specials, not quality arms. They were the R-870Ex/M-500s of their day.

February 5, 2012, 06:55 PM	#25
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	And some were great, Parker, Fox and LeFever, to name a few. but they got expensive to make compared to the cheap pump, and that still holds true today. A new AH Fox from CSMC will generally start around $15,000 and go up from there