When you can't carry, less than lethal options

[Nisei]

as far suggestions for tactical pens and air-travel, please read this.

http://www.tsa.gov/who_we_are/workfo...ch_100110.shtm

I do a lot of travel through airports, when I think "useful less than lethal tools" I simultaneously think "what can I legally carry in an airport."

A simple Uni-Ball roller pen is pretty sharp and, again as emphasized, training will help make it a formidable tool. Wrap one with old head-phones or para-cord and you have a beautiful Koppo stick. Old head-phone cord is extremely sturdy and if the ear-buds are attached you can easily tell the TSA agent you're using the pen as a way to keep the cord from getting tangled.

A baseball hat with a logo patch sewn on the hat. Behind the patch, put a heavy challenge-coin or something similar and sew the patch back on. Like a poor-man's sap. In the X-Ray the coin will show in the hat and you can say something about sentimentality like you got the coin and the hat from an old friend or relative. It's worked for me a few times.

Good luck with what you do!

- Hiroshi

[ncpatriot]

Next time I fly somewhere, I'll have a carry on duffel bag with:

A change of clothes & shoes, extra shoestrings for all shoes.
2 pairs of long work socks.
Small pouch of meds & personal items, gauze & tape, spare eyeglasses.
A pair of leather work gloves.
2 rolls of quarters for any vending machine purchases.
Rings of keys for each place I visit, each ring labeled with tag.
A notebook, small calculator & writing pad. A technical book & leisure book.
Pencil box or bag with a few paper clips, rubber bands & a $20 bill.
Envelope with copies of my ID's, list of addresses, phone #'s.
A package of factory sharpened pencils & a package of ball point pens.
A small umbrella, small flashlight & head lamp.
A prepaid cell phone & small recording device.
A few snack crackers & bottle of water, bought at airport.
All common items any traveler might normally carry, all used by most people.
Examine the ways some items can be used, alone or combined.

[raimius]

You could Macgyver a whole LOT with that stuff, but it would take time and access to them. I would focus on the things you would have within arms reach and require no assembly.

Metal-bodied pens and metal flashlights would be prime choices for improvised defense, IMO.
Of course, I wouldn't want to be hit by several rolls of coins in a long sock either!

Improvised weapons are handy, but in an enclosed, tight space like an aircraft, I think unarmed training will likely influence the outcome more than an improvised weapon.

[ncpatriot]

Good points raimius, we do need such training. However; a roll of quarters or ring of keys in a sock will hurt the BG much more than my fists which never were "fists of fury" to begin with. The pencils & pens are good stabbing weapons to injure his throat, eyes, stomach, chest, etc. Shoestrings are good for tying hands & feet or strangling a BG. Umbrella is a moderately good club & better shield than nothing at all. A paper clip unfolded & shot from a rubber band can take an eye out or distract a BG long enough for a further attack by someone else. If all that fails, I can then use my fists as a last resort.

A carry on duffel bag under the seat is within arm's reach to me and anything mentioned would only take seconds to put together. Plus, if anyone nearby wants to help, I have a weapon for him too.

McGyver? He made bombs from grain dust.

[2edgesword]

While a knife is a lethal weapon I think any jury of peers using a little common sense and given some insight into how a knife can be applied in a less lethal fashion could differentiate between wounds inflicted with the intent to kill an individual versus wounds inflicted to stop an attack without lethal intent.

A knife can also be used as a kubaton which is less lethal then applying the blade although under the right circumstances you could kill someone using a kubaton.

OC spray might end or escalate the attack and you need to have a back-up, which might be a knife.

In the most restrictive places I carry a sturdy pen. Tuff Writer at the moment.

[raimius]

As most of the improvised weapons would be used at contact range, hand-to-hand or very close CQB skill would probably be important. That was my point.

A bag under the seat is good. I'm too tall to comfortably do that...dang economy seats!

[Boomm]

I'm a boxer so my hands do fine, but on occasion I'll tie the ends of a bandana together, stick a master lock on it, and put it in my back pocket.

[KenpoTex]

If you can't carry a gun (i.e. there are metal-detectors present), you're most likely not going to be able to carry knives or OC either.

Get a "super sharpie" marker or a cheap but sturdy metal-bodied pen (the drug-rep pens are great for this), or a small flashlight.

Something like the above, coupled with some good martial-arts/combatives training will leave you pretty well prepared for the times when you can't be armed with a purpose-designed weapon.

Originally Posted by 2edgesword

While a knife is a lethal weapon I think any jury of peers using a little common sense and given some insight into how a knife can be applied in a less lethal fashion could differentiate between wounds inflicted with the intent to kill an individual versus wounds inflicted to stop an attack without lethal intent.

I'm gonna call BS on this one...using a knife to target extremities "without lethal intent" would be no different than shooting someone "without lethal intent." i.e. deliberately shooting them in the arm or the leg.
Shooting or stabbing/slashing someone (regardless of where you stab/slash/shoot them) will NOT stand up in court if deadly force was not justified.

I've also heard some people raise the interesting, and quite reasonable, point that the types of wounds inflicted by "biomechanical cutting" are going to look an awful lot like the "defensive wounds" commonly seen on someone who was defending themselves against a knife attack. So now you're trying to get the cops, prosecutor, and ultimately, the jury to believe that you were the one defending yourself...even though the other guy bears the marks commonly seen on victims of a knife attack.

Originally Posted by 2edgesword

A knife can also be used as a kubaton which is less lethal then applying the blade although under the right circumstances you could kill someone using a kubaton.

This (closed folder used as an impact weapon) would, IMO, be the only way a knife could feasibly be used in a "less lethal" capacity.

[Nisei]

I like reading the suggestions on here, never though of a Super-Sharpie or a roll of quarters. Good show!

Again, I will say for those doing the flashlight option, you should NOT get a tactical light (I.E. Aggressive teeth in the front to bring the hurt) or tactical pens. I have seen these confiscated over and over as "concealed weapons."

To the OP, the main agreement here is to get some martial-arts training.

- Hiroshi

[xMINORxTHREATx]

+1 to Nisei

If you can't carry ANYTHING, then some hand - to - hand training is going to be your best bet.


The combatives I was taught in the Army was basically what UFC fighters use.

A mix of Muay-Thai and Brazillian Jujutsu.

The important differences is that in combatives, we were taught that our training was to achieve one of three goals, in priority.
1 - Break away from a hostile you are scuffling with to get your weapon back.
2 - Gain the upper hand and use a back up weapon. (Knife, stick, rock)
3 - Gain the upper hand and use your body as a weapon.



We were also taught several techniques using your opponents clothing as a weapon against them. Using their collars to choke them, pulling their sleeves past their hands and controlling their arms with their sleeves, rendering their hands useless.

I only got to level 2, but I believe the higher levels incorporated using Kali sticks.

[egor20]

A long time ago, in a sleazy bar far, far away

Back when I was in the Navy, when I wore the "Cracker Jack" uniform, I used to sew a roll if quarters into my kerchief so it was at the back of my neck, made a great slapjack in a fight.

[Steviewonder1]

Two 3 oz pakcets of "Hand Sanitizer". One in each of your front pockets of your jacket. Open and squeeze to shoot a stream about 10 feet in front of you. Get this stuff in someone's eyes at 40%+ alcohol content and it will hurt and disorient them. Safe and legal to carry on all airplanes. Remember one in each of your jacket pockets. If you don't have a jacket this time of the year, go get one!

[xMINORxTHREATx]

I've had this idea for a while but kept forgetting to post it.

Para-cord wrist band.




They have about 18 feet of 550lb test para-chute cord. Useful in multiple ways.

[ncpatriot]

I saw the misgivings about tactical pens. I wondered earlier if they wouldn't be noticed & disallowed. Several common pens out there are very sharp & should stand up to a stab or 2. Pilot makes several types & the old Bic pens are still around. Both are pretty cheap too. I've seen several others as well.

I forgot to mention a lighter. I think 1 lighter or book of matches is allowed in carry on luggage. I gave up smoking but might throw in a cigar or cigarettes to explain the lighter. Never know what it may be good for. Cheap & easy to have, why not?

I like the hand sanitizer; great idea.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So what good is lighter? I'm curious.

[Burger]

I'm always armed with my wits.












Although I tend to forget and leave it at home occasionally.

[KenpoTex]

squirting them with a packet of hand-sanitizer...seriously?

[raimius]

Apparently, something described as a "tactical pen" was confiscated by the TSA...although I've seen them confiscate airsoft speed-loaders (clear plastic, but in the general shape of an M9 magazine)...
(http://www.tsa.gov/who_we_are/workfo...ch_100110.shtm)

Yet, screwdrivers less than or equal to 7 inches in length are allowed, as are "Scissors - metal with pointed tips and blades shorter than four inches." I'd imagine either of those could be put to darn effective use in defending one's self.

[Crosshair]

As has been mentioned, a roll of nickels or quarters (depending on hand size) work VERY well. No cop is going to seize a roll of coins. One of my uncle's used them when he was in the Navy and he said they were quite effective.

A few tidbits though as to proper use.

1. Unlike brass knuckles, DO NOT strike bone. You will break your hand. So go for softer areas on the body.
2. You are able to deliver significantly more energy and can easily cause substantial damage. Broken ribs and internal bleeding are easily possible. If you hit someone with the roll, you better intend to hurt them and be justified in doing so.
3. Even if you are careful, there is still a chance of breaking your hand.

[xMINORxTHREATx]

"""Yet, screwdrivers less than or equal to 7 inches in length are allowed, as are "Scissors - metal with pointed tips and blades shorter than four inches." I'd imagine either of those could be put to darn effective use in defending one's self."""





HAHAHAHAHA



But really, a pair of scissors is perfectly viable option for self defense if you are going on a airliner.

Or even a fingernail file such as this one, put in a case that looks like a personal hygiene kit, should make it pass the screening.

[gyvel]

Oven cleaner.

[Crosshair]

"""Yet, screwdrivers less than or equal to 7 inches in length are allowed, as are "Scissors - metal with pointed tips and blades shorter than four inches." I'd imagine either of those could be put to darn effective use in defending one's self."""

That reminds me, I work in county jails on telephone and CCTV camera systems. I get to carry all sorts of pointy stuff into jails no questions asked. Electrician scissors, Various boxcutters, hammers then add all the little sharp screwdrivers, sharp enough to open packaging, I carry around for the baluns and surface jacks.

Interesting job.

[ncpatriot]

I don't plan on hitting the BG with my fist, holding the roll of quarters. I plan to drop them in a sock and hit him that way, like a flail.

[Crosshair]

I don't plan on hitting the BG with my fist, holding the roll of quarters. I plan to drop them in a sock and hit him that way, like a flail.

Always think about plausible deniability. Make sure to drop some loose coins in the sock too. Then, if stopped, you can tell the cop that it's just your coin bag. You just happen to have two full rolls of quarters in it in addition to your lose change.

[ncpatriot]

Always think plausible deniability.

Good thinking but this scenario would be if I were on a plane & someone attempted a hijacking or other major mayhem. I'm not very concerned then about it looking like an innocent object turned into a weapon. That would be more an issue if I carried such things in the truck. Then, I would simply use a drawstring coin bag with coins as you suggested.