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Old October 29, 2008, 08:14 PM   #1
azsixshooter
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Copper Fouling Blues

I'm having some real trouble with copper fouling in my 6.5x55SE. It's my first centerfire rifle so I'm not used to having to work so hard to clean my rifle. I'm mostly just used to powder-fouling in shotguns, .22's and pistols. Even my .357 Mag is a piece of cake compared to this. I love shooting this rifle so I'm willing to do whatever I have to, but this is getting to be a real drag.

First of all, the only cleaning kit they had at Sportsman's Warehouse is for .243/.264"/.270" so I'm instantly suspicious of that because I don't see how a brush that will fit a .243 would ever work on a .264, much less a .270! It actually doesn't work at all, when I run that thing through the bore it's like throwing a hotdog down a hallway, it practically rattles around in the bore so I know it isn't doing squat. The only brush they had in stock that was specifically for .264" bores was a Montana Extreme Ny-Tough brush, which is okay but it takes forever to get the bore completely cleaned of all traces of copper.

I'm currently cleaning my rifle after every 15 - 20 shots and using Butch's Bore Shine. I soak a patch and saturate the bore and let it sit for awhile (few minutes) then I run the wet patch through again and then scrub the bore for a few minutes. Then repeat. Over. And over. And over. I fired 25 shots today at the range, I've been cleaning this rifle for over 2 hours now and it's still not done. I can't stand doing this every time I shoot, it's going to drive me crazy. It cannot be this hard to get a bore clean. I was thinking maybe Butch's wasn't as good as I thought it was so I tried Gunslick Copper-Klenz and it didn't even work as good as the Butch's. I've also used J&B Bore Polish, but I've heard you don't want to use that too often since it takes steel off and will wear the barrel out faster. I used it when I first got the rifle before I first shot it and I've used it the last couple of times after cleaning it in hopes that it would help reduce fouling and make cleaning easier. No dice.

I am finally just ordering some .264" bronze brushes from Midway since nobody around here seems to carry them and I was wondering if anyone thinks I should stick with the Butch's Bore Shine or would you recommend something better?
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Old October 29, 2008, 08:45 PM   #2
j.chappell
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A few things.


1. USE A BORE GUIDE!
2. I use Barnes CR-10. It works great.
3. I really wouldnt use bronze brushes. I only use jags and nylon bruses when needed. One good trick is to use a size under bore size and place a wet patch over it for a good scrubbing.
4. Get yourself a good cleaning rod NOT one of the universal jointed models.
5. I prefer a wax over an oil for protection.

J.

Last edited by j.chappell; October 29, 2008 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Thought your title read Cooper not copper, sorry
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Old October 29, 2008, 08:51 PM   #3
hogdogs
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I was told that a "FLITZ" polishing job reduces copper fouling by smoothing the surfaces so as not to pull so much copper from the bullet.
I have not done it so I am not bearing my testimony to its value.
Brent
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Old October 29, 2008, 08:57 PM   #4
j.chappell
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I would seriously try a better copper solvent before you go polishing, lapping, and possibly ruining your throat, bore, or crown due to excessive abrasion.

J.
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Old October 29, 2008, 09:15 PM   #5
ursavus.elemensis
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I must be doing something wrong, or not realizing something, or terribly misunderstanding something. I shoot several different calibers of center-fire rifles, and I almost exclusively shoot copper jacketed bullets. Sometimes I shoot lead bullets, like the cowboy loads that I shoot from my .44 and my .357 lever rifles. Anyway, on every forum I have ever been to, the folks are always talking about copper fouling and how hard it is to get copper out of the bore, etc. Like I say, I must be missing something, maybe my rifles have turned into solid copper by this point and I just don't realize it, but I just do not have trouble cleaning my rifles after I shoot, and I shoot like 75-100 rounds in a session. With my .223 it is all FMJ ammo, and I might shoot 250 rounds at a time. I just don't get it. I have bolt rifles, lever rifles, and semi-autos and I just don't have that much trouble cleaning the bore. I use Hoppes #9, and then a CLP. I put the Hoppes in with a wet patch, let it sit, after a few minutes or thereabouts I use a jag to push through some wet patches on a jag, then a few dry patches, then the CLP and back together it all goes and into the safe. I look down my bores all the time, and I'm just not seeing any problem, and by the end of my relatively easy and quick process, there's no blue stuff on the patches. I do have a lot more trouble getting the lead out when I use my lead bullet cowboy loads in the lever guns. Seems to be a lot more messy, and takes longer to clean up the rifle than when copper jacketed ammo is used.

So what's going on? Am I blissfully stupid and just not aware of the several pounds of copper I must have been leaving in the bores all these years? Or, am I actually getting them as clean as I think I am, but for some reason no one else has the cleaning luck that I have?

By the way, I never clean a rifle at the range. For goodness sake, I'm out there to shoot and have fun, not to do the dishes. Then again, I'm not going for getting all five shots in the same hole in the target paper from 600 yards back. But I do clean the rifles when I get home. Anyway, what am I missing here?
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Old October 29, 2008, 09:34 PM   #6
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Thanks guys. Before I got this rifle I had read a lot of threads regarding barrel break-in and I figured I might as well do that since some said it would help reduce copper fouling, that's why I ran the J&B Bore Polish through there before firing the first shot. I also did the whole clean between each shot thing for the first 10 rounds then I did 5 shots clean, 5 shots clean for 20 or so and then I've just been cleaning it regularly between every 15 - 20 shots.

I'm not trying to be impatient or anything, it just seems really excessive to have to spend so much time on this rifle after a day's shooting. I almost don't even want to shoot it sometimes because I don't want to have to clean it. That's no good, so I'm just trying to shorten the whole process by either changing my method (I clean it the way the Lyman Reloading Manual instructions say to clean it, that's why I got the Butch's Bore Shine as that is what they recommend) or changing the solvent and/or brushes I'm using.

I think it will help to get the correct sized bronze brushes. I'd also like to try cleaning it right after I take my last shot at the range to see if it's a lot easier to get the fouling out when the barrel is still hot. I don't like having to clean my rifle at the range or out in the desert, but I'd rather do that and have it only take 20 or 30 minutes than spending hours on it at home.

I have been using a bore guide everytime I have cleaned this rifle, but I don't have a 1-piece rod. I need to get one soon. Thanks for the suggestion on the Barnes CR-10, I added a bottle of it to my Midway order with those brushes.

Other than using the J&B Bore Polish that I've already tried I don't have any plans on fire-lapping the barrel or anything. I looked at that before, but I have already got sub-MOA groups with this barrel and my handloads, so I don't think it's necessary to do anything like that. I just want to be good to my rifle since she is being good to me and keep her clean.

I do use oil for protection, but I use it very sparingly so that it doesn't run back down and get into the stock when it's in the safe. I also run a dry patch through the barrel before I go out hunting or before my first shot at the range to get most of the oil out, even though I'm just using a very light coating. I prefer to fire a few "fouling" shots as well before I plan to shoot any shots that count.

This rifle isn't a Cooper, it's a CZ 550 American, but I assume Cooper offers info about barrels that can be universally applied?

Thanks again for the good advice, it's much appreciated.
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Old October 29, 2008, 09:40 PM   #7
Tim R
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I have not tried Butches Bore Shine, come close a couple of times though. I use Shooters Choice and let it sit for a least an hour before running a clean patch through and then go in with another wet one. When I get in a hurry I use JB bore paste. Having several top end barrels on my service rifles I will not use anything which I feel will hurt the barrel. I stopped using bore brushes some years back, although the brushes I have are the better bass core brushes. I use a bore guide on everything.

To apply the solvent, I use a squeeze bottle with a needle, found at Brownells and cheap. I will not dip a brush, which I stopped using, in my bottle of solvent as it makes it dirty.

I've had some good results with the foaming bore cleaners such as Outters but after awhile it won't touch the copper any more either until a dose of JB's cuts the old copper surface away. I tip the rifle up so the now blue foam drips into the sink and have made a couple of applications before running a patch through. The foaming stuff can be in the barrel for awhile without problems.

I suggest maybe letting the solvent do more work.

Another thought is clean the old powder fouling out but not get over board on the copper until the groups open up.
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Old October 29, 2008, 09:44 PM   #8
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ursavus.elemensis,

Yes, if you only use Hoppes #9 to clean your rifles you are missing something. You would crap if you used a copper solvent.

I am going to guess that your rifles are no where near clean. They will appear clean due to the fact that there will be no sign of fouling on your patch. Go grab yourself a small sample bottle of Barnes CR-10 or better copper solvent. I have not used a better one than Barnes CR-10, and run a wet patch down the bore, wait 1 minute and run another down there. I'll bet my right "you know what" that it will come out pure blue.

J.
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Old October 29, 2008, 09:46 PM   #9
j.chappell
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azsixshooter,

I misread your title, for some reason I saw Cooper and not copper, sorry for advising you to contact them.

J.
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Old October 29, 2008, 10:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
I suggest maybe letting the solvent do more work.
I've been letting it sit for a long time each time I soak it now; I started cleaning this at 3pm and it's now 8pm and when I look in the muzzle with a little mag-lite I still see one last little fleck of stubborn copper in there. I know that's splitting hairs, but I figure that if there is still a little tiny bit near the muzzle there could be more back in ahead of the throat.

I run the wet patch through, then scrub for awhile, then run dry patches, then repeat. It seems like this solvent just isn't strong enough to really dissolve the copper well. I'm excited to try the Barnes CR-10. I would like to just run patches wet and dry and not have to use a brush. Or maybe just use a nylon brush. These Montana Extreme Ny-Tough brushes are holding up better than I would have thought. It just seems like if the solvent isn't doing its' job then you aren't going to be very successful trying to scrub metal out of a bore with plastic.

Quote:
Another thought is clean the old powder fouling out but not get over board on the copper until the groups open up.
I'm really starting to think you're on to something there. I have a friend who is an old cowboy and he is quite the rifleman. He's got a lot of nice ones and I've always been very impressed with his shooting. He said he doesn't clean them until he notices accuracy suffering.

I've heard a lot of guys say that and I have noticed that my groups tighten up as my gun gets dirty and open up after every cleaning. It's just so hard for me to fall asleep at night if I know that I put a dirty gun into my safe. I toss and turn and imagine the grit and grime just decaying and pitting my bore! I don't know how anyone can do that. Maybe it's just been so beaten into my head to never let the sun set on a dirty gun.

Still, I'm really thinking there is something to that and if getting the CR-10 and the brass brushes of the proper size don't help make this process a lot shorter I think I will just go ahead and start living with the copper fouling until I notice my accuracy start to suffer. Then I'll spend the time to soak and scour the bore until every last bit of copper is gone and the bore looks brand new again.
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Old October 29, 2008, 10:22 PM   #11
j.chappell
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Now one thing you are going to want to watch is using a bronze brush with a copper solvent as bronze is a copper alloy and being so will react with the solvent, this is why I use only nylon brushes.

Just follow the directions on the back of the bottle and see what happens.

J.
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Old October 29, 2008, 10:23 PM   #12
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+1 on Barnes CR10. However, you'll need to use a nylon brush and jag since the ammonia will also attack ones made from copper/brass/bronze.

Jim

Edit: I see J.Chappell beat me too it.
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Old October 29, 2008, 10:40 PM   #13
azsixshooter
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Yes, I've read about that and I've been rinsing (and drying) off my brushes before I put them away and I don't dip them into the bottle since I read that that will dirty and dilute the solution over time.

I have another Ny-Tough brush here that is still in the packaging and the one I'm using is holding up really well so I'll give the CR-10 a day in court before I go crazy with the bronze brushes and see how it goes. Another thing I'm considering is that maybe these patches are smaller than what is optimal for my bore since they came in a bag with a range from .243 - .270. Maybe if I use tighter patches I'll see better results.

I really appreciate your help, I know this isn't a custom rifle or anything but it's my rifle and I want to form good habits and learn the right way to do it so that if I ever do get a nice, custom barrel/rifle I will already know how to care for it properly.
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Old October 29, 2008, 11:06 PM   #14
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Barnes CR10 is great stuff. It goes along way . It also smells Xactly like cat pee, so beware. I have had the same bottle for 3 years. I would not use it everytime you clean your rifle. Only for the occasional cleaning. ( Say like every 50-100 rounds) My Ar 15 sees Cr10 about every 500 rounds.
It willeat a bronze brush up in one cleaning.
I tend to use the brushes that came with my RCBS reloader kit for lubing cartridges. It works great.
Runa few patches through after using the CR10
Finish off with a good preservative such as CLP
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Old October 29, 2008, 11:10 PM   #15
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here is my routine for all my rifles....Sweets 7.62, wet patch over a nylon brush. It might take some different combos of size brush and a patch rolled over it, for the right tightness/snugness. Someone mentioned undersized brush. I use the same size brush as the bore, and one patch (not to tight, and not to loose). Anyway, I use one wet patch(over the nylon brush), then another wet patch. Then a dry one or two to dry up any leftover Sweets. You dont want to leave that stuff in for any long period of time, it is amonia stuff. Here is opening a can of worms.....With the patch wrapped around the brush, I push it through the barrel, then pull it back. Most will say thats bad pulling it back through. But I have been doing that for years without problems. I just push/pull/push/pull scrubbing, you get the picture. After a couple wet, and a couple dry, I then ALWAYS use JB Bore paste smeared on a patch, wrapped on the brush. Again, scrubbing back and forth. Then one more with JB. Then a couple wet (w/Sweets), copper is gone, then a couple to dry/clean out the Sweets, the a patch with a light amount of CLP. This process has never failed me. The first couple patches with Sweets really cleans out the powder fouling, letting the JB get to work on the copper. Also, somebody mentioned about a coated cleaning rod. Those are really nice. Just doesnt sound right hearing metal scrapping from other non-coated type rods.
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Old October 29, 2008, 11:15 PM   #16
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It doesn’t matter if it is a $50 surplus gun or $10,000 custom rifle; it’s a rifle and as such should be taken care of in an appropriate manner. Don’t feel as if you are making a big deal out of it by wanting to do it right.

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Old October 29, 2008, 11:16 PM   #17
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yeah no kidding, dont leave it in too long. I leave it in 15 minutes tops. usually about 5 minutes.
scrub the hell out of it with a nylon brush and then go to work on it with a few patches.
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Old October 30, 2008, 01:30 AM   #18
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One thing was pointed out to me recently be a family member. He became obsessed with copper fouling. He would use Sweets 7.62 and no matter how long he worked the patches kept coming out blue. He finally figured out by talking to his gunsmith that Sweets also reacts with brass. The blue patches were really from his brass cleaning jag once the copper was removed.

I use Montana extreme copper lotion, Pro-Shot Copper Solvent IV, and Hoppes powder solvent. First I brush Hoppes on and then patch it out. Then I put the lotion on my bronze brush and run it through 4/5 times. I let it sit for 5 minutes, it's nice because it takes a long time to dry up and it doesn't run out of the barrel. It sticks to every surface it touches. I soak my Nylon brush in it next and run it through 10 times or so. Then I run a jag and patch through to get out the dirty lotion. Next I dip the bronze brush in Hoppes and run it through 2-3 times. Then a patch and the jag. Then the pro-Shot on the nylon brush and I scrub the bejesus out of it. Let it sit for 5 minutes. I run a patch through on the jag. next comes a patch on a jag and a small dab of Flitz (I've been doing this for years with no ill effects on the barrel longevity) for one pass through the bore guide and out of the muzzle. I only push it one way. Next is a quick brushing and patching with the Hoppes. A patch with oil and by then I'm not seeing anything on the patches. The whole idea is that copper coats the barrel when the bullet passes through, but then a layer of carbon from the powder coats it. Then you shoot again and you get copper on the first layer of carbon that gets it's own coat of carbon. I think you need a powder solvent followed buy a copper solvent, and back and forth to remove the layers.
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Old October 30, 2008, 07:18 AM   #19
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Sweets 7.62 and no metal brushes
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Old October 30, 2008, 07:26 AM   #20
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Don't get worked up over some copper fouling. The fact is that many guns don't shoot well with a dead clean bore. What you need to find out is at what points fouling effects accuracy, what point does it help and what point does it hurt.
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Old October 30, 2008, 08:47 AM   #21
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If you're not shooting benchrest, why obsess over copper anyway? It's another internet hot button. Shoot it until accuracy drops off, then clean it well. I've had good luck with KG products, check out their copper removing tests. But like most custom barrel makers will tell you, more damage is done by over-cleaning, and cleaning wrong, than by shooting.
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Old October 30, 2008, 09:00 AM   #22
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I had a 30-06 rifle barrel that severely copper fouled. After 20 shots or so you could actually see fouling. The only real cure was lapping the barrel. The thing must have had a rough surface finish. It takes it a lot longer to copper foul now.

Assuming that it is the barrel, and not the bullets or loads, you are hosed. Polishing removes metal.

Before using abrasives, I would experiment with different bullets and reduced loads. If that fails, then I would clean the bore with JB bore paste, and see if there are some David Tubb bore lapping bullets in 6.5. And shoot them.

As for copper solvents, Sweets is excellent. Butch's is pretty good. Hoppe's #9, and champions are not as aggressive.
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Old October 30, 2008, 09:23 AM   #23
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I used plain powder solvent (plain Hoppe's #9) once on a dirty barrel. When I looked in the muzzle, I saw the cleanest, shiniest copper in the grooves. So I added Sweets 7.62 for that one. I am not a chemist, so I follow the standard precaution to not mix cleaning chemicals since there may be an interaction.

Quote:
He finally figured out by talking to his gunsmith that Sweets also reacts with brass. The blue patches were really from his brass cleaning jag once the copper was removed.
I bet a bunch of us learned this the hard way. The bronze brushes have copper, too. So that is why using no metal brushes is good while trying to clean copper.

Lee
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Old October 30, 2008, 09:49 AM   #24
j.chappell
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As I stated a lot earlier in this post...


BRONZE IS A COPPER ALLOY!
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Old October 30, 2008, 11:30 AM   #25
azsixshooter
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Ideally I am hoping to just be able to run wet patches of CR-10 or Sweets 7.62 through the barrel and get all the copper fouling out without having to scrub the bore with any brush. Barring that I will just use a ny-tough brush and if that doesn't do the trick I will go to a bronze brush.

But I'm hoping to avoid having to use a bronze brush if possible. I'll check the instructions on the CR-10 when I get it and if it's necessary to also use a powder solvent I'll hit it with Hoppe's #9 too. With the Butch's Bore Shine it is supposed to get both copper and powder fouling out.
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