Failure to fire...what's the cause?

[ArkieVol]

Is it the guns, the primers, or me??

Went to the range today to try out 50 rounds each of .38 spl. 148g HBWC and 158g LSWC I had just loaded with 2.6g and 5.3g of HS-6 respectively. Magtech primers and new Starline cases in all rounds.

I was using two guns I had never fired before; a new S & W 686+ 6" bbl and a 1957 S & W pre model 15 4" Combat Masterpiece. Before using my hand loads, I wanted to shoot up 50 rounds of a variety of commercial standard .38 spl and .38 spl +P I had accumulated over time. Using both guns I fired off those 50 rounds with no problems.

Then I started on my hand loads and, to make it short, 6 of the 148g wad cutter loads failed to fire and 16 of the LSWC's failed to fire. I reloaded 4 of the unfired rounds and tried to fire them again (one at a time)...two fired, two didn't. I didn't try any more.

I seat primers with an RCBS hand held device and see no visible difference in any of the loads...none higher or lower than the others. And I have fired a number of rounds with Winchester primers and had no FTF's with them.

Since it happened with both guns that had functioned flawlessly with the commercial ammo, the FTF's happened with both guns, and the primers that failed to fire appear to have been struck solidly, I am, therefore, leaning toward blaming the primers.

Any comments, observations, suggestions?

Oh yeah, What do I do with the live rounds with damaged primers?


Thanks,
Jack

[joneb]

I have a few S&W revolvers with adjustable main springs, and this should be considered.
A primer not fully seated may misfire, even after strike two. I seat my primers with a RCBS press and a good bit of leverage, the primers should always seat a bit more than flush(.004-.006) . I have not tried Magtech primers, but I have had ignition problems with CCI primers in my S&W revolvers with lightly tuned main springs.

[Whisper 300]

With that many failure to fire reloads I would also look to the depth of primer seating and/or firing pin/spring issue.
As to what to do with the "bad" round-get an inertial puller and a hard surface and disassemble the round.
With pistol powders, I just dump the powder(usually just a small amount there and not worth fooling with) and personally i would try and re-set the primer and then see if I could get the primer to fire on a couple of them after resetting a tad deeper or get another gun to try out.
If the deeper set primers went off, reassemble the loads and trot off to the range and try again.
Gary

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

G'day. My first thought was the primers were not seated correctly. I am still new to reloading and am a complete novice with handguns so I can't help much on that side of things.

[DWARREN123]

Did you use a case lube?
I use Magtech primers (SPP) in my 40 S&W reloads and have not had a problem yet.
Was the firing pin mark centered?
Did the firing pin leave a good mark?
If the primers were seated correctly I can not think of a reason they did not fire.

[Ozzieman]

2.6g and 5.3g of HS-6
Was that a typo???
That 2.6 is a very under pressure load for a 148 GR HBWC. HODGDON shows a minimum load of 4.5 GR of HS-6 and a max of 5.2.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[Foxbat]

First check for good firing pin indent.

If it is there, then I would look at lube - if you are handling the primers with your fingers, oil can kill the primer.

[kraigwy]

Its not just you, I cant getmagtech primers to fire in my revolver, a few maybe but for the most part they dont work.

I started using them in my Marlin 1894 357 and my Rem 25-20 where they work.

I tried them in my S&W 40 and so far they work, but I havent shot that many out of it, so I can't say for sure.

I believe the primer cup is just too hard. I havent tried other Magtect primers and I doubt I will.

PS they also work in my 223 cast bullet loads.

[ArkieVol]

"2.6g of HS-6 - Was that a typo???"

Yes it was...thanks. That was 2.6g Bullseye!

To answer a few others;

I don't use lube.
I'm careful not to handle the primers with fingers.
Firing pin indents appear equal to unfired primers.
I have a bullet puller but was a little concerned about banging around a damaged primer.

Thanks for all the replies. I will review my primer seating technique and see how it goes from here.
Jack

[snuffy]

First check for good firing pin indent.

If it is there, then I would look at lube - if you are handling the primers with your fingers, {b]oil can kill the primer.[/b]

No it can't. In fact there isn't much that CAN kill a primer. Neither can touching them with your fingers. That's one of the most often repeated myths/old wives tales in reloading.

I have not tried mag tech primers. But they should have a sealant on the primers the same as other brands. That sealant protects them from oil and other stuff that could de-activate them.

[Colorado Redneck]

A year or so ago, I loaded a bunch of 38 Spec and 357 mags using CCI 500 (small pistol) primers. We have a S&W 66 that has shot fine for a couple thousand rounds.

I started having FTF issues with those reloads. So, I adjusted the hammer spring to max. Same deal. Took the gun to a good smith and he worked it over. In the meantime I reloaded another 100 rounds using same primers. Only difference is that I did NOT clean the primer pocket on the last batch.

We took things to the range yesterday and the latest loads (no cleaning of the primer pocket) fired flawlessly. Then I started using out of the previous batch and had 1 round FTF out of the first six, and 2 out of the 2nd six. It looks like the primer is not getting a good strike on the FTF rounds.


I think the primer is seated too deep on the FTF rounds, as a result of overzealous primer pocket cleaning on my part. One of the memebers in this forum posted a few months ago that he had tested "cleaning the primer pockets" versus "not cleaning the primer pockets" and there was no advantage to cleaning them. Thus, I have stopped that.

As well, CCI primers have a rep for being "hard" so it may be a combination of seating them too deep and use of a hard primer.

[Foxbat]

"No it can't. "

Yes, it can and very easily. Depends on the amount of oil on your fingers.

Speaking of non-working primers... this has been incredibly rare over many years, but in the recent batch of CCI Magnum primers I suddenly had three out of 100 that failed to fire. That's after multiple strikes.

And this was the only batch of 100 that I loaded with them.

Who knows, maybe the quality control is slipping with the demand.

[Farmland]

Can you contaminate a primer with your hands. I would say yes though unlikely if you just pick it up on the sides.

If there is one thing I have learned primers can be tough.

I read through this and to be frank I don't know why you are having your problems. Maybe a photo or two would help showing the seated primer and in addition the one that FTF.

[drail]

I would try another brand of primers to see if it a gun problem or a primer problem. I'm betting on the primers.

[confirmed shooter]

It has to be the primers. Even if the powder is bad, or the charge is laying in the botom of the case when fired, the primer alone will send the bullet into the chamber. I have been using winchester for rifle and pistol and get real good load to load uniformity. The other thing is that you are using two guns, I would't think that both firing pins, hammer pins, would be faulty at the same time. Course, strange stuff do happen. Good Luck, charlie sierra

[ArkieVol]

"I would try another brand of primers to see if it a gun problem or a primer problem. I'm betting on the primers."

On an earlier outing using three different guns (S & W mod. 60, 64, & 640) I fired 100 rounds with Winchester primers (seated with the same RCBS hand device) and all fired fine.

Just before having the FTFs with my S & W mod. 686 and 15, I fired 50 rounds of old commercial stuff head stamped Winchester, Remington, CCI, Premier, a couple of police range reloads, and a couple of dubious heritage and all fired just fine. Some I know were 15+ years old.

I have two hundred new rounds with Winchester and Remington primers, seated just like the Magtechs, that I will use next week (pouring rain right now) and report the outcome.

All of my loads thus far are all new never fired brass so no primer pocket cleaning involved.

I'll try to get some pix.

Thanks for all the input...I'm just trying to get it right

[wncchester]

"Failure to fire...what's the cause? "

Most FTF events are due to poorly seated primers.

Oils will kill primers. If they are oil soaked for two-three weeks.

[Longdayjake]

I had this same issue with 3 out of 50 shot from my new 686. They all fired on the second time around so maybe it was a weak primer strike.

[Unclenick]

If those primers have extra hard cups, you probably want to seat them pretty firmly. If the priming tool lets you feel when the anvil touches down in the bottom of the pocket, you ideally want an additional several thousandths of crush to set the bridge thickness of the priming pellet to proper sensitivity. Call Magtech and ask for their specific recommendation. They should nominally be 0.003" to 0.005" below flush with the face of the case head (the surface with the head stamp).

Primer contamination is just plain inconsistent. It is perfectly possible to kill some primers and very difficult to kill others. The two most extreme cases I heard of are these: One person, trying to find a way to dispose of old primers, intentionally soaked primers in penetrating oil for two days and found it had done nothing to stop them from working. At the other extreme, a fellow worked for Aberdeen Proving Grounds testing ammunition, among other things, reported killing a number of rounds he'd loaded (no external military primer sealant) because he had them sitting nose-down in a box out on a bench in poor weather where a few water drops of water from a leak in the firing point cover fell on the primers. He reported they were DRT. No waiting.

[snuffy]

Yes, it can and very easily. Depends on the amount of oil on your fingers.

Oh? Then quote a source for your "FACT You're pretty good at repeating reloading myth like a recording machine. "I have heard" is not the same as fact!

Here's one test that sounds a lot like fact.

From here;
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=kill+primer...lprimers.shtml

Primer test. Attempt to deactivate primers over a 5 day period. Test primers were Winchester Large Rifle. Cases were primed 30-06 brass. Treatment was done by partially filling the cases with each fluid, then placing the cases in a 50 round plastic Dillon ammon box . I treated the primers at 12:00 noon Central time, then conducted a firing test each day at 12:00 noon. One set of 5 cases every 24 hours until complete.

Treatment Day 1 Day 2 Day 3 Day 4 Day 5
Untreated Normal Normal Normal Normal Normal
Liquid Wrench Weak Weak Weak Weak Strong
WD-40 Weak Weak Weak Weak Strong
Rem Oil Weak Weak Weak Weak Weak
Dillon Case LubeVery Weak Very Weak Weak Weak Weak
Tap Water Very Weak Strong Extr.Weak Dead Dead
Alcohol Very Weak Very Weak Weak Weak Very Weak
Kroil Weak Weak Weak Weak Weak



Federal 210 Gold Match:


Treatment Day 1 Day 2 Day 3 Day 4 Day 5
Liquid Wrench Dead Dead
WD-40 Dead Dead
Rem Oil Dead Dead
Dillon Case Lube Dead Dead
Tap Water Dead Dead
Alcohol Dead Dead
Kroil Dead Dead

On Day 2 I also primed a case, gave it a shot of WD-40, waited about 10 seconds and then chambered and attempted to fire it. It was dead. It appears that Federal primers are easily deactivated, where Winchesters were much more resistant.

So It appears that not all primers are built the same. As I said "most" primers a impervious to oils.

NOTE, the software for this BBS slides everything together so the chart quoted above is hard to read. To see it make sense, click on the above link.

[Foxbat]

"Oh? Then quote a source for your "FACT You're pretty good at repeating reloading myth like a recording machine."

I guess you will just have to accept the fact that many knowledgeable people hold opinions different from yours. Unless you consider yourself the foremost authority in the field, that should suffice. Some people believe the seal is broken when the primer is seated, but they probably just don't know what they are talking about.

[Sidewinder72]

How about flatening the primer out so firing pin doesnot make good contact? I know on small primers you can flaten them so much they won't go off when trigger is pulled. Just seat till past flush a little, you go by feel.

[snuffy]

I guess you will just have to accept the fact that many knowledgeable people hold opinions different from yours.

The test I searched up required the primers be IMMERSED in the various liquids. The tiny amount of oils on your fingers is composed of lanolin. Lanolin is the basis of a lot of case lubes that claim they don't harm primers. How will the small, trace amount oil on ones fingers, deactivate a primer?

[Foxbat]

Perhaps I should have been more clear when I said oil on fingers - I didn't mean just the normal oils you have on clean fingers. When I load and work on machines (clearing jams...), my fingers often are covered with grease, lube and who knows what else.

[Unclenick]

Actually, Snuffy's quoted report echoes what I said earlier. Some are easy to kill and some aren't. The former APG employee I mentioned is also a match shooter, and probably had Federal 210M's in his rounds that were killed by rain. If the Federals die that easily, finger grease could do it. Apparently not to Winchesters, though. So, the idea of oil on the fingers likely applies in some instances and not others.

On squishing primers, the Recommendation from Federal is that you ideally seat an additional 0.002" for small and 0.003" for large primers beyond the anvil touching down in the bottom of the primer pocket. The K&M tool with dial indicator addition is the only way I know to be sure of getting that measurement. Former CCI employee Allan Jones recommends the 0.003" to 0.005" depth below flush method. Both are intended to set the primer pellet bridge to correct thickness between the anvil and the bottom of the primer cup.