Car broken into and they came back the next night. - Page 4

Lost Sheep · June 18, 2009, 01:55 AM

There has been a lot of good defensive advice offered, tactical and legal. The only thing I have to add to that would be to (if you have the money) hire a security consultant (in addition to the lawyer) to advise what measures would be most effective in making your house safe. None of us here on the forum have seen your house, so cannot advise in defensible space, perimieter protection, best placement of detection devices, etc. (Dog, multiple layers of cameras, off-site storage, safe room with cell phone and independent power etc.)

What really prompts my post is to suggest taking a proactive approach. Find out who these guys are. Get an injunction against them if you can (was suggested already) and then go a little further. Without becoming a stalker or violating their rights/privacy find out what you can about them. That may give a clue as to how to get them prosecuted (maybe not for the crimes against you, but at least for SOMETHING).

Knowing some of their history, you may also get a clue as to who else might wind up targeting you. The fact they took pictures of your house's exterior indicates a great deal of planning and they may, having already been identified by the police, turn the job of your home's invasion to other criminals whose faces you don't have on camera.

I feel for your predicament. It is unfair that you should have to spend your time, worry and money to make you and yours safe, but that is the situation. As long as you are faced with this unfairness, you might as well get out ahead of the events.

Is there a victims' rights advocate in your jurisdiction? They may be able to help get extra police effor, since your burglary and continued harrassment/stalking is ongoing and apparantly escalating. It seems pretty clear you are being actively targeted and the usual advice of "Make yourself a less inviting target and the criminals with be discouraged and look elsewhere" is definitely NOT applicable. You are not a victim of opportunity, but an active target and the odds of an escalation are pretty near 100%.

So, point by point, my advice:

Contact (if there is one) the victims' services office with jurisdiction in your area. See what assistance/advice they have.

Consult a professional security specialist for how to harden your house. The same security specialist might have advice on what to do with the information of the next step.

Find out who these guys are and the people they run with and everything you (legally) can about them. This may start with an internet search of court records (usually public records, but with juveniles usually protected, but there are sometimes legal ways around that)

Get an injunction against them if you can. Or, find out what their beef is and if there is more to the story than you know, perhaps a truce could be negotiated. Or, at least, the knowledge might make you better armed against them in their criminal trials.

Consult a lawyer with two questions: 1) What are our rights with regard to self-defense? 2) Can I go after these guys with criminal charges or civil charges (in court) with or without the police? If you can find a lawyer in private practice who used to be a prosecutor, so much the better (my opinion). You want to find an attorney equally adept at 1) defending you if you should have to explain use of force and 2) figuring out how to gather evidence to prosecute or sue these criminals.

And a VERY BIG caution. These guys are not just burglarizing for fun and profit. You have been targeted and are now being actively hunted. Let that fact inform your decisions. I don't want to scare you, but if they are determined enough arson is not out of the question, nor is a hit on any of you in some other location.

Good luck. and prayers be with you. God helps those who help themselves, and remember, God is observing how you do that.

Lost Sheep

With regard to EarlG's advice. Forum rules forbid a specific response, but I gotta respond. I know the impulse is to gear up and go hunting, or as you suggest, set up with an overwhelming response team. Gratifying. But the fact is that private armies (or even just a fire team or two) is beyong the reach of most of us. Vigilantism 1) is not Legal 2) is too easy to make a mistake and get the wrong people killed 3) seldom the end of the matter (at least not satisfactorily).

pax · June 18, 2009, 08:24 AM

Moderator Note

I just went through and deleted some illegal advice - some of it visible to members, some not. Going to go ahead and leave the thread open, but any further illegal advice on this thread WILL result in a ban of the offending member(s). This includes chest-thumbing, bloodlust, and all related behaviors.

On TFL, we will discuss what can be done within the law and within an ethical framework, and we will do so in a calm and chest-thumping free environment. There are lots of other places around the 'net where you can advocate for irresponsible firearms use, but TFL is not one of them.

pax

pacerdude · June 18, 2009, 09:25 AM

Thank you Pax, and do you have any advice? They came back last night, three or four of them in the car and one person was brazen enough to come into the yard, and then run through to the back yard. We went out to the front porch and called the police. By the time the police came everyone was gone. But we have the video of the SUV and the person in our yard. I dont want any of this to come to violence, I just want them to leave my family alone. Thanks in advance for the great advice.

yourang? · June 18, 2009, 09:33 AM

even worse than proposing illegal behavior, it isnt a long shot
that some of these guys might even be reading this board and
enjoying the buzz they are creating

you never know

if that is the case, you could be telegraphing every move
you are doing, which might actually work to your disadvantage

gives you pause for thought, although there has been much good
advice and support offered throughout......

good luck!

TailGator · June 18, 2009, 10:36 AM

This may be stupidly simple, but if you put up legal "No Trespassing" signs, and then they do the stuff they have been doing, don't the authorities have a charge against them?

Sixer · June 18, 2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

even worse than proposing illegal behavior, it isnt a long shot
that some of these guys might even be reading this board and
enjoying the buzz they are creating

Ummm, yeah... I'm gonna have to say that's a longshot.

In the meantime, I'd be sitting on my front porch with a shotgun and a smile

raftman · June 18, 2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

this may be stupidly simple, but if you put up legal "No Trespassing" signs, and then they do the stuff they have been doing, don't the authorities have a charge against them?

Isn't trespassing always trespassing, whether a sign is present or not?

OttoJara · June 18, 2009, 08:20 PM

Hey Pacerdude, I know you said you have multible cameras, do you have enough to cover the whole outside of your house? Do you have any pointed on the entry points of your house on the inside? Some of these could be very helpful if they do enter you house in any way. Again, prayers are coming to you and your family, I do hope to God that this ends soon. Our military are scattered all over the world fighting terrorists, why can the police help you with these terrorists? Good Luck. Otto

djohn · June 18, 2009, 10:15 PM

To my understanding the Police are in no way obligated to protect us.They cant do anything until the law is broken by the perps and have proof or they are caught red handed.I suggest do your own private eye work thats pefectly legal,sit in your car near by watching and trying to Get a license tag number,discription get pictures maybe even email them to the police.Make a a lot of noise until some one listens but just keep it legal.If you know or find out who is harasing your family you can file a restraining order.It may or may not help but at least breaking a protective order is grounds for a immediate arrest.

Beentown71 · June 18, 2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

If you know or find out who is harasing your family you can file a restraining order.It may or may not help but at least breaking a protective order is grounds for a immediate arrest.

More great ideas. I believe you said before that you had the tags of a vehicle on tape. Get that number and take it to the police and file the restraining order. CYA as much as possible.

Beentown

pacerdude · June 18, 2009, 10:39 PM

Thanks again for everything fellas. Our whole house is covered by the cameras, but the Sherrifs Department still wont look at our videos to see the people and their vehicles. Maybe last night was it and we wont see any more of them. God bless you all.

Lost Sheep · June 19, 2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pacerdude

Thanks again for everything fellas. Our whole house is covered by the cameras, but the Sherrifs Department still wont look at our videos to see the people and their vehicles. Maybe last night was it and we wont see any more of them. God bless you all.

As much as we can hope these guys are done, knowing how much time they have invested in you and your family, I doubt if this situation is going to go away by itself. I opine that they have an agenda, if not a vendetta. Try to find out what it is, if you can.

I don't know what it would take to make the Sherrif's office take a more active interest.

Does your local government have a community outreach program that encourages things like Neighborhood Watch? is there an Ombudsman's Office? Maybe a Civilian Liason in the Sherrif's Department? Is there a way you can get the identities of these guys and file charges directly with the prosecutor's office?

I am not a big fan of appeasement, but if these guys do have something they are after, if you find out what that is, you may be able to either give it to them or completely destroy their ability to get it. Either way, the incentive to get it by going through your family is reduced.

It would be most satisfying to see them get their reward in jail, but sometimes peace and justice are not simultaneously available.

Again, good luck.

Lost Sheep

ttman · June 20, 2009, 09:18 PM

No Trespassing only works when the perp has been ID'ed by a witness (while trespassing) & given a warning/citation by the Police. then further trespassing, witnessed, will be dealt with by PD.

how do I know? a teenage perp got caught in my vacant for sale house (he broke in) by my real estate agent in GA. a No Trespassing sign does NOTHING.

doc540 · June 22, 2009, 02:50 PM

1. Do NOT discuss such matters on a public forum.

2-10 don't matter now

SAIGAFISH · June 22, 2009, 03:04 PM

I suggest you and some friends hideout across the street and the
the next time they show pile out and ask them what @#@@$%blank
they are doing

bababooey32 · June 24, 2009, 10:00 AM

Pacerduded...can we assume the interaction with these humps has slowed/stopped? We haven't heard from you on this in a week, so I assume they have moved on?

ZeSpectre · June 24, 2009, 10:25 AM

Just brainstorming because you've been given a lot of good advice.

I suppose you could also dust a few areas with something like this UV "tracing powder". http://www.staclean.com/Trace-it-Powder.html

If the cops then pulled the suspects over it would provide quick proof that they'd been on your property.

Ze

pacerdude · June 24, 2009, 11:22 AM

Thanks for all the help guys, as of today everything has slowed down and no body has come around for a while. I will let you guys know if anything changes. Thanks again.

June 18, 2009, 01:55 AM	#76
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	A lot of good advice There has been a lot of good defensive advice offered, tactical and legal. The only thing I have to add to that would be to (if you have the money) hire a security consultant (in addition to the lawyer) to advise what measures would be most effective in making your house safe. None of us here on the forum have seen your house, so cannot advise in defensible space, perimieter protection, best placement of detection devices, etc. (Dog, multiple layers of cameras, off-site storage, safe room with cell phone and independent power etc.) What really prompts my post is to suggest taking a proactive approach. Find out who these guys are. Get an injunction against them if you can (was suggested already) and then go a little further. Without becoming a stalker or violating their rights/privacy find out what you can about them. That may give a clue as to how to get them prosecuted (maybe not for the crimes against you, but at least for SOMETHING). Knowing some of their history, you may also get a clue as to who else might wind up targeting you. The fact they took pictures of your house's exterior indicates a great deal of planning and they may, having already been identified by the police, turn the job of your home's invasion to other criminals whose faces you don't have on camera. I feel for your predicament. It is unfair that you should have to spend your time, worry and money to make you and yours safe, but that is the situation. As long as you are faced with this unfairness, you might as well get out ahead of the events. Is there a victims' rights advocate in your jurisdiction? They may be able to help get extra police effor, since your burglary and continued harrassment/stalking is ongoing and apparantly escalating. It seems pretty clear you are being actively targeted and the usual advice of "Make yourself a less inviting target and the criminals with be discouraged and look elsewhere" is definitely NOT applicable. You are not a victim of opportunity, but an active target and the odds of an escalation are pretty near 100%. So, point by point, my advice: Contact (if there is one) the victims' services office with jurisdiction in your area. See what assistance/advice they have. Consult a professional security specialist for how to harden your house. The same security specialist might have advice on what to do with the information of the next step. Find out who these guys are and the people they run with and everything you (legally) can about them. This may start with an internet search of court records (usually public records, but with juveniles usually protected, but there are sometimes legal ways around that) Get an injunction against them if you can. Or, find out what their beef is and if there is more to the story than you know, perhaps a truce could be negotiated. Or, at least, the knowledge might make you better armed against them in their criminal trials. Consult a lawyer with two questions: 1) What are our rights with regard to self-defense? 2) Can I go after these guys with criminal charges or civil charges (in court) with or without the police? If you can find a lawyer in private practice who used to be a prosecutor, so much the better (my opinion). You want to find an attorney equally adept at 1) defending you if you should have to explain use of force and 2) figuring out how to gather evidence to prosecute or sue these criminals. And a VERY BIG caution. These guys are not just burglarizing for fun and profit. You have been targeted and are now being actively hunted. Let that fact inform your decisions. I don't want to scare you, but if they are determined enough arson is not out of the question, nor is a hit on any of you in some other location. Good luck. and prayers be with you. God helps those who help themselves, and remember, God is observing how you do that. Lost Sheep With regard to EarlG's advice. Forum rules forbid a specific response, but I gotta respond. I know the impulse is to gear up and go hunting, or as you suggest, set up with an overwhelming response team. Gratifying. But the fact is that private armies (or even just a fire team or two) is beyong the reach of most of us. Vigilantism 1) is not Legal 2) is too easy to make a mistake and get the wrong people killed 3) seldom the end of the matter (at least not satisfactorily). Last edited by Lost Sheep; June 18, 2009 at 02:05 AM.

June 18, 2009, 08:24 AM	#77
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Moderator Note I just went through and deleted some illegal advice - some of it visible to members, some not. Going to go ahead and leave the thread open, but any further illegal advice on this thread WILL result in a ban of the offending member(s). This includes chest-thumbing, bloodlust, and all related behaviors. On TFL, we will discuss what can be done within the law and within an ethical framework, and we will do so in a calm and chest-thumping free environment. There are lots of other places around the 'net where you can advocate for irresponsible firearms use, but TFL is not one of them. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

June 18, 2009, 08:20 PM	#83
OttoJara Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 459	Hey Pacerdude, I know you said you have multible cameras, do you have enough to cover the whole outside of your house? Do you have any pointed on the entry points of your house on the inside? Some of these could be very helpful if they do enter you house in any way. Again, prayers are coming to you and your family, I do hope to God that this ends soon. Our military are scattered all over the world fighting terrorists, why can the police help you with these terrorists? Good Luck. Otto __________________ The early bird may get the worm, but, the second rat, gets the cheese. "A fear of weapons, is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

June 18, 2009, 10:15 PM	#84
djohn Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2009 Location: CT Posts: 507	To my understanding the Police are in no way obligated to protect us.They cant do anything until the law is broken by the perps and have proof or they are caught red handed.I suggest do your own private eye work thats pefectly legal,sit in your car near by watching and trying to Get a license tag number,discription get pictures maybe even email them to the police.Make a a lot of noise until some one listens but just keep it legal.If you know or find out who is harasing your family you can file a restraining order.It may or may not help but at least breaking a protective order is grounds for a immediate arrest. __________________ Dave. Last edited by djohn; June 18, 2009 at 10:24 PM.

June 22, 2009, 03:04 PM	#90
SAIGAFISH Junior member Join Date: June 14, 2009 Location: portland oregon Posts: 308	dont be a victam I suggest you and some friends hideout across the street and the the next time they show pile out and ask them what @#@@$%blank they are doing

June 18, 2009, 09:25 AM	#78
pacerdude Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 607	Thank you Pax, and do you have any advice? They came back last night, three or four of them in the car and one person was brazen enough to come into the yard, and then run through to the back yard. We went out to the front porch and called the police. By the time the police came everyone was gone. But we have the video of the SUV and the person in our yard. I dont want any of this to come to violence, I just want them to leave my family alone. Thanks in advance for the great advice.

June 18, 2009, 09:33 AM	#79
yourang? Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2008 Location: ex upstate ny...now free Posts: 119	even worse than proposing illegal behavior, it isnt a long shot that some of these guys might even be reading this board and enjoying the buzz they are creating you never know if that is the case, you could be telegraphing every move you are doing, which might actually work to your disadvantage gives you pause for thought, although there has been much good advice and support offered throughout...... good luck!

June 18, 2009, 10:36 AM	#80
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	This may be stupidly simple, but if you put up legal "No Trespassing" signs, and then they do the stuff they have been doing, don't the authorities have a charge against them?

June 18, 2009, 10:39 PM	#86
pacerdude Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 607	Thanks again for everything fellas. Our whole house is covered by the cameras, but the Sherrifs Department still wont look at our videos to see the people and their vehicles. Maybe last night was it and we wont see any more of them. God bless you all.

June 20, 2009, 09:18 PM	#88
ttman Member Join Date: December 17, 2001 Posts: 58	No Trespassing only works when the perp has been ID'ed by a witness (while trespassing) & given a warning/citation by the Police. then further trespassing, witnessed, will be dealt with by PD. how do I know? a teenage perp got caught in my vacant for sale house (he broke in) by my real estate agent in GA. a No Trespassing sign does NOTHING.

June 22, 2009, 02:50 PM	#89
doc540 Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 1,430	1. Do NOT discuss such matters on a public forum. 2-10 don't matter now

June 24, 2009, 10:00 AM	#91
bababooey32 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 161	Pacerduded...can we assume the interaction with these humps has slowed/stopped? We haven't heard from you on this in a week, so I assume they have moved on?

June 24, 2009, 10:25 AM	#92
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	Just brainstorming because you've been given a lot of good advice. I suppose you could also dust a few areas with something like this UV "tracing powder". http://www.staclean.com/Trace-it-Powder.html If the cops then pulled the suspects over it would provide quick proof that they'd been on your property. Ze __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"

June 24, 2009, 11:22 AM	#93
pacerdude Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 607	Thanks for all the help guys, as of today everything has slowed down and no body has come around for a while. I will let you guys know if anything changes. Thanks again.