1911 Remington UMC

Keith Rogan · July 15, 1999, 11:40 AM

I have a Remington 1911 (not 1911a1) thats in perfect condition. The bluing is excellent, a deep rich blue. I'm told that it HAS to be refinished because there are no pistols of this class in this condition.

Its marked "Model of 1911 US Army Caliber .45" on one side of the slide and on the other its marked with Colt patent dates and "Manufactured by Remington Arms UMC CO INC Bridgeport, Connecticutt" - theres also a "Remington UMC" within a circle.
The serial # is 12929

2 questions - can you tell from these markings if this was Military or a civilian issue pistol and when it was manufactured?
And assuming that it has been refinished at some point, what is its value?

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

Harley Nolden · July 15, 1999, 11:48 AM

Keith:
There were 21,676 of these pistols made in 1918 and 1919. They have their own serial numbers range #1-21676 and are stamped Remington UMC on the side.

Bases upon the years of mfg.and the serial number range, I would say your pistol was probably made in 1918.

Value:Excellant=$3,500.00 to Poor=$400.00

HJN

[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited July 15, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited July 15, 1999).]

Keith Rogan · July 15, 1999, 12:37 PM

Dang you're quick Harley! I wasn't even offline yet.

The condition of the pistol is excellent but its been refinished at some point, I'm sure of that.
Thats got to affect the value - if not, I'm selling immediately to the first guy to show up with 3k!

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

James K · July 15, 1999, 01:25 PM

Don't be so sure it has been refinished. The only Remington-UMC I ever saw had just the type of finish you describe and it was absolutely all original. Look for any signs of buffing, like dragged lettering, rounded corners, etc. If in doubt, take it to a gun show and find someone who knows the old guns. (Don't accept offers, though, until you assess what you hear.)

Jim

Erich · July 15, 1999, 02:20 PM

Keith,

I've got a Remington 1911 like that. Mine was made in 1917, and was clearly refinished. Its markings (e.g., "Property of U.S. Government") leave little doubt for whom it was made. Mine is probably not worth as much as yours, but it's a lot of fun to shoot. And I only gave $200 (six years ago), so I'm pretty happy with it. (Of course, I like the Glock 33 better for carrying.) I think we should start a 1911 (no A1s need apply) forum.

cheers,
erich

Jim V · July 15, 1999, 11:35 PM

I don't know if your Remington - UMC was refinshed or not but there are any number of them in near excellent condition that were not refinished, I know I own one.

The good advise was to take it to gun shows and have serious collectors look at it. DO NOT accept any offers unless they are high enough to make your head swim, and then think about it. What ever you are offered should be less than what it is worth. FWIW

------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited July 16, 1999).]

James K · July 16, 1999, 12:15 AM

FWIW, the Blue Book lists the Remington-UMC .45 at $2500 in 98%.

Jim

Keith Rogan · July 16, 1999, 01:47 AM

Well Damn!

Heres the story on the pistol. I bought it from an old bird who said he had got it at a government auction in Seattle back in the 70's. This was about 3 years ago and I paid $300 for the pistol. The old guy said he had paid about $100 for it at the auction.

I live on Kodiak Island and there are no appraisers or any kind of "experts" around here. I've shown it to a couple of people who I thought might know something about it and one guy said it had to be refinished and some sort of scam.
I never really bought that because if it was a scam why was it sold for $100 at a government auction (I really believe the old gentleman) and then to me for $300?
Nobody has made any profits on this gun!

If it had been arsenal refinished, wouldn't they have just parkerized it instead of the nice bluing job?
On the other hand, when you look at the lettering on the slide it doesn't appear real crisp, it looks like its been polished quite a bit.
Were the early blued 1911's just heavily polished before bluing? Or does the lettering look crisp like a modern Colt?

Can one of you who is familiar with the early 1911's describe precisely how I can tell if its been refinished?

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

fal308 · July 16, 1999, 09:04 AM

If I recall correctly, early military 1911s came from the factory blued. They were parkerized when they came in for rebuilds. Don't recall when the changeover to factory parkerizing took place but I believe it was near the end of WWI or just after.

Harley Nolden · July 16, 1999, 09:44 AM

Kieth:
I have worked in a FED Gov. facility that overhauled, referbished and in general, repaired military weapons for the Army. It was our policy to refinish in the condition that it was accepted for repair. This could be true in the case of your UMC. From what you describe, appears to have been refinished, it may well have been done @ a Gov. agency facility.

As you mentioned, the lettering is well worn, as if from many polishings, could be attributed to the experience of the repairman at the Arsenal or Gov repair depot. I have seen them, at our shop, polised until the screw holes are oblong in just one process.

I have been to many Military Auctions, and I believe that the OLE man bought it for $100.00. I once bought 300 M14, match stocks for $3.00. Yeah, surprised me too. I thought I was buying 3 stocks, but actually was buying 3lots. (palets)

HJN

Keith Rogan · July 16, 1999, 10:26 AM

Ok,

That sounds reasonable to me and in accord with the verbal history on the gun.
What would the value on such a refinished piece be?

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

James K · July 16, 1999, 11:49 AM

Just to be sure what you have. The left side of the frame should have the US Property legend and the initials E.E.C. (E.E. Chapman) with the letter E on the trigger guard. The right side should have only "NO" and serial number.

If this is all correct, and even if the pistol is refinished, I think you could probably more than double your money pretty easily. These guns are darn rare and most collectors would want one as an example, even if it was refinished.

Jim

Harley Nolden · July 16, 1999, 04:39 PM

Kieth:
My records,1999, Standard Catalog of Firearms, 9th Edition, indicate, the value of your piece to be $3,500.00 (Exc) $400.00 (poor) I am convinced you have an original, and weather it is refinised or not, the value, in my opinion, is there.

When someone has something that someone else wants and doesn't have, it isn't worth a darn, until they have it, then of course it is the best.

HJN

[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited July 16, 1999).]

Harley Nolden · July 17, 1999, 12:22 AM

Kieth:
Just read your story. Marty Stoufer would have been proud of you and your photos. I have to admit, you were really lucky. I do think you looked better in the tobaggan than the cowboy hat though..

HJN

Keith Rogan · July 17, 1999, 12:32 PM

Jim,

The left side of the frame does say "United States Property" but I don't see any "EEC". The left top of the trigger guard has the "E" but its partially polished away.
The right side of of the trigger guard has a "44" - could this be the date it was arsenal refinished?
The Right side of the frame has the "NO" preceding the serial number as you say.

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

Keith Rogan · July 17, 1999, 12:41 PM

Harley,

If the pistol is worth anywhere near that high dollar amount, I'd be interested in selling it. I already have 4 other .45's around the place that I can actually shoot!

If you'd be interested in acting as agent or can recommend a reliable person in the business who could sell the gun for a percentage, please email me.

As for the cowboy hat in the website - its my "lucky" hat. I was wearing it when I got mauled, the time I fell in the river, the time I nearly cut my thumb off gutting a caribou...hmmmm, maybe you're right about that hat!

------------------
Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

tim parker · April 16, 2005, 06:08 AM

i need info on this one --remington umc 1911-- it has a deep blu finish markings ----- on left side [patended dec.19.1905-feb.14 1911.aug.19.1913-colts pt.f.a.mfg.co] [remington u m c inside circle][ manufactured by- remington arms u m c co. inc.-bridgeport,conn.u.s.a. and a stamp above mag release that looks like a [g] with flame above it -also #55 on trigger guard ------- on right side there it has model [c f 1911 u.s. army caliber .45] frame has [no 489389] trigger guard has a [ s in a circle] the barrel has [h s] on it any one know where i can find ser # history i belive there was 650000 made thanks tim

prosandbagger · October 30, 2007, 03:29 PM

I also have a year 1918 Remington 1911 that was just given to me by my dad. It is in beautiful condition and fires well. The ser # is a low 4 digit one and looks to have been rebuilt at the Springfield Arsenal and the slide and grips were changed to a Colt 1911-a1. Does this gun have significant value or should I just take care of it and use it for a shooter ?
thanks

sdl · November 20, 2007, 06:52 PM

I thought these Remington's were made in Ilion, NY? Anybody know for sure?

Steve

Hawg · November 20, 2007, 07:18 PM

http://www.seekblue.com/rumc.html

cdonati · March 8, 2009, 07:20 PM

Remington experienced many manufactoring difficulties, and they never experienced smooth production. Many critical parts are not interchangeable between pistols. The blue was not durable on many of their pistols. Most were likely refinished in the military rebuild project after World War I that ended about 1924 or 1925.

I had a Remington-UMC with only traces of the original finish, but no wear and all matching. The blue finish just turned to a patina. I currently own a Remington-UMC that I believe was initially rejected by the government, and then repaired & refinished before it was accepted. The stampings are faint and exhibit buffing, but the original polishing marks and blue color look correct. The finish is period, but it could have been refinished in the 1920s.

I had one Remington-UMC with a defective thumb safety that I couldn't get to work right, no matter how many parts (safety, hammer, & sear) I switched out. It was probably outside of tolerances when it was made.

While it's unlikely the blue finish on your pistol is original, if it has the correct P barrel proofed on top of the hood, and E marked mainspring housing, then the finish may be original. Have it checked by an expert, and not just someone at a gunshow who saw a picture of a Remington-UMC at some point in the past.

flight954 · March 8, 2009, 09:33 PM

My dad and I inherited a Remington UMC from a great uncle that served in the Navy. It is an 8XX serial #. The only problem w/ ours is that it was nickle plated at some point of it's service. We think maybe because it was a Navy issued firearm. I have thought about having it refinished, but there is too many history marks on the pistol. Anyway I don't plan on selling this piece because it's a family heirloom. With all this said, it's a very cool pistol and great shooter.

April 16, 2005, 06:08 AM	#17
tim parker Junior Member Join Date: April 16, 2005 Posts: 1	remington 1911 umc i need info on this one --remington umc 1911-- it has a deep blu finish markings ----- on left side [patended dec.19.1905-feb.14 1911.aug.19.1913-colts pt.f.a.mfg.co] [remington u m c inside circle][ manufactured by- remington arms u m c co. inc.-bridgeport,conn.u.s.a. and a stamp above mag release that looks like a [g] with flame above it -also #55 on trigger guard ------- on right side there it has model [c f 1911 u.s. army caliber .45] frame has [no 489389] trigger guard has a [ s in a circle] the barrel has [h s] on it any one know where i can find ser # history i belive there was 650000 made thanks tim

October 30, 2007, 03:29 PM	#18
prosandbagger Junior Member Join Date: October 30, 2007 Posts: 6	Remington umc I also have a year 1918 Remington 1911 that was just given to me by my dad. It is in beautiful condition and fires well. The ser # is a low 4 digit one and looks to have been rebuilt at the Springfield Arsenal and the slide and grips were changed to a Colt 1911-a1. Does this gun have significant value or should I just take care of it and use it for a shooter ? thanks

March 8, 2009, 07:20 PM	#21
cdonati Junior Member Join Date: March 8, 2009 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 1	Remington-UMC M1911 Remington experienced many manufactoring difficulties, and they never experienced smooth production. Many critical parts are not interchangeable between pistols. The blue was not durable on many of their pistols. Most were likely refinished in the military rebuild project after World War I that ended about 1924 or 1925. I had a Remington-UMC with only traces of the original finish, but no wear and all matching. The blue finish just turned to a patina. I currently own a Remington-UMC that I believe was initially rejected by the government, and then repaired & refinished before it was accepted. The stampings are faint and exhibit buffing, but the original polishing marks and blue color look correct. The finish is period, but it could have been refinished in the 1920s. I had one Remington-UMC with a defective thumb safety that I couldn't get to work right, no matter how many parts (safety, hammer, & sear) I switched out. It was probably outside of tolerances when it was made. While it's unlikely the blue finish on your pistol is original, if it has the correct P barrel proofed on top of the hood, and E marked mainspring housing, then the finish may be original. Have it checked by an expert, and not just someone at a gunshow who saw a picture of a Remington-UMC at some point in the past.

July 15, 1999, 11:40 AM	#1
Keith Rogan Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 1,014	I have a Remington 1911 (not 1911a1) thats in perfect condition. The bluing is excellent, a deep rich blue. I'm told that it HAS to be refinished because there are no pistols of this class in this condition. Its marked "Model of 1911 US Army Caliber .45" on one side of the slide and on the other its marked with Colt patent dates and "Manufactured by Remington Arms UMC CO INC Bridgeport, Connecticutt" - theres also a "Remington UMC" within a circle. The serial # is 12929 2 questions - can you tell from these markings if this was Military or a civilian issue pistol and when it was manufactured? And assuming that it has been refinished at some point, what is its value? ------------------ Keith The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

July 15, 1999, 11:48 AM	#2
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Keith: There were 21,676 of these pistols made in 1918 and 1919. They have their own serial numbers range #1-21676 and are stamped Remington UMC on the side. Bases upon the years of mfg.and the serial number range, I would say your pistol was probably made in 1918. Value:Excellant=$3,500.00 to Poor=$400.00 HJN [This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited July 15, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited July 15, 1999).]

July 15, 1999, 12:37 PM	#3
Keith Rogan Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 1,014	Dang you're quick Harley! I wasn't even offline yet. The condition of the pistol is excellent but its been refinished at some point, I'm sure of that. Thats got to affect the value - if not, I'm selling immediately to the first guy to show up with 3k! ------------------ Keith The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

July 15, 1999, 01:25 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Don't be so sure it has been refinished. The only Remington-UMC I ever saw had just the type of finish you describe and it was absolutely all original. Look for any signs of buffing, like dragged lettering, rounded corners, etc. If in doubt, take it to a gun show and find someone who knows the old guns. (Don't accept offers, though, until you assess what you hear.) Jim

July 15, 1999, 02:20 PM	#5
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	Keith, I've got a Remington 1911 like that. Mine was made in 1917, and was clearly refinished. Its markings (e.g., "Property of U.S. Government") leave little doubt for whom it was made. Mine is probably not worth as much as yours, but it's a lot of fun to shoot. And I only gave $200 (six years ago), so I'm pretty happy with it. (Of course, I like the Glock 33 better for carrying.) I think we should start a 1911 (no A1s need apply) forum. cheers, erich

July 15, 1999, 11:35 PM	#6
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	I don't know if your Remington - UMC was refinshed or not but there are any number of them in near excellent condition that were not refinished, I know I own one. The good advise was to take it to gun shows and have serious collectors look at it. DO NOT accept any offers unless they are high enough to make your head swim, and then think about it. What ever you are offered should be less than what it is worth. FWIW ------------------ Ne Conjuge Nobiscum "If there be treachery, let there be jehad!" [This message has been edited by Jim V (edited July 16, 1999).]

July 16, 1999, 12:15 AM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, the Blue Book lists the Remington-UMC .45 at $2500 in 98%. Jim

July 16, 1999, 01:47 AM	#8
Keith Rogan Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 1,014	Well Damn! Heres the story on the pistol. I bought it from an old bird who said he had got it at a government auction in Seattle back in the 70's. This was about 3 years ago and I paid $300 for the pistol. The old guy said he had paid about $100 for it at the auction. I live on Kodiak Island and there are no appraisers or any kind of "experts" around here. I've shown it to a couple of people who I thought might know something about it and one guy said it had to be refinished and some sort of scam. I never really bought that because if it was a scam why was it sold for $100 at a government auction (I really believe the old gentleman) and then to me for $300? Nobody has made any profits on this gun! If it had been arsenal refinished, wouldn't they have just parkerized it instead of the nice bluing job? On the other hand, when you look at the lettering on the slide it doesn't appear real crisp, it looks like its been polished quite a bit. Were the early blued 1911's just heavily polished before bluing? Or does the lettering look crisp like a modern Colt? Can one of you who is familiar with the early 1911's describe precisely how I can tell if its been refinished? ------------------ Keith The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

July 16, 1999, 09:04 AM	#9
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	If I recall correctly, early military 1911s came from the factory blued. They were parkerized when they came in for rebuilds. Don't recall when the changeover to factory parkerizing took place but I believe it was near the end of WWI or just after.

July 16, 1999, 09:44 AM	#10
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Kieth: I have worked in a FED Gov. facility that overhauled, referbished and in general, repaired military weapons for the Army. It was our policy to refinish in the condition that it was accepted for repair. This could be true in the case of your UMC. From what you describe, appears to have been refinished, it may well have been done @ a Gov. agency facility. As you mentioned, the lettering is well worn, as if from many polishings, could be attributed to the experience of the repairman at the Arsenal or Gov repair depot. I have seen them, at our shop, polised until the screw holes are oblong in just one process. I have been to many Military Auctions, and I believe that the OLE man bought it for $100.00. I once bought 300 M14, match stocks for $3.00. Yeah, surprised me too. I thought I was buying 3 stocks, but actually was buying 3lots. (palets) HJN

July 16, 1999, 10:26 AM	#11
Keith Rogan Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 1,014	Ok, That sounds reasonable to me and in accord with the verbal history on the gun. What would the value on such a refinished piece be? ------------------ Keith The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

July 16, 1999, 11:49 AM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Just to be sure what you have. The left side of the frame should have the US Property legend and the initials E.E.C. (E.E. Chapman) with the letter E on the trigger guard. The right side should have only "NO" and serial number. If this is all correct, and even if the pistol is refinished, I think you could probably more than double your money pretty easily. These guns are darn rare and most collectors would want one as an example, even if it was refinished. Jim

July 16, 1999, 04:39 PM	#13
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Kieth: My records,1999, Standard Catalog of Firearms, 9th Edition, indicate, the value of your piece to be $3,500.00 (Exc) $400.00 (poor) I am convinced you have an original, and weather it is refinised or not, the value, in my opinion, is there. When someone has something that someone else wants and doesn't have, it isn't worth a darn, until they have it, then of course it is the best. HJN [This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited July 16, 1999).]

July 17, 1999, 12:22 AM	#14
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Kieth: Just read your story. Marty Stoufer would have been proud of you and your photos. I have to admit, you were really lucky. I do think you looked better in the tobaggan than the cowboy hat though.. HJN

July 17, 1999, 12:32 PM	#15
Keith Rogan Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 1,014	Jim, The left side of the frame does say "United States Property" but I don't see any "EEC". The left top of the trigger guard has the "E" but its partially polished away. The right side of of the trigger guard has a "44" - could this be the date it was arsenal refinished? The Right side of the frame has the "NO" preceding the serial number as you say. ------------------ Keith The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

July 17, 1999, 12:41 PM	#16
Keith Rogan Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 1,014	Harley, If the pistol is worth anywhere near that high dollar amount, I'd be interested in selling it. I already have 4 other .45's around the place that I can actually shoot! If you'd be interested in acting as agent or can recommend a reliable person in the business who could sell the gun for a percentage, please email me. As for the cowboy hat in the website - its my "lucky" hat. I was wearing it when I got mauled, the time I fell in the river, the time I nearly cut my thumb off gutting a caribou...hmmmm, maybe you're right about that hat! ------------------ Keith The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

November 20, 2007, 06:52 PM	#19
sdl Member Join Date: November 13, 2007 Posts: 15	I thought these Remington's were made in Ilion, NY? Anybody know for sure? Steve

November 20, 2007, 07:18 PM	#20
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	http://www.seekblue.com/rumc.html

March 8, 2009, 09:33 PM	#22
flight954 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2006 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 933	My dad and I inherited a Remington UMC from a great uncle that served in the Navy. It is an 8XX serial #. The only problem w/ ours is that it was nickle plated at some point of it's service. We think maybe because it was a Navy issued firearm. I have thought about having it refinished, but there is too many history marks on the pistol. Anyway I don't plan on selling this piece because it's a family heirloom. With all this said, it's a very cool pistol and great shooter.