Double-Action Dryfire

[iMagUdspEllr]

I am learning to use a DA/SA gun (PX4 Storm Special Duty). I have been trying to learn the double-action trigger through dry fire practice but I can't keep the front sight still through the trigger break. Everything goes fine until the trigger breaks. I'm left handed and the front sight snaps to the left (then back to center) and the gun feels like it wants to rotate counter-clockwise out of my hand (I don't lose grip on it nor do I have to redo my grip). I suppose if I was right handed the front sight would snap to the right and want to rotate clockwise.

I suspect the gun is too big for my hands and the trigger reach is too long for my trigger finger so I will attach pictures of my grip to see what you guys think.

Any tips for double-action training is much appreciated.

[Clifford L. Hughes]

iMagUdspEllr:

You're doing the right thing by snapping in. Dry firing can help you to eliminate sight movement when the trigger releases. When I was shooting on several Marine Corps pistol teams I snapped in by dry firing against a plain white wall. This way I could concentrate not only on proper grip; but also, keeping the sights aligned without movement on trigger release.


Semper Fi.
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

[MLeake]

I tend to use small, stationary objects as focal points for dry-fire. I particularly like doorknobs, at the far end of hallways. By focusing the front sight against a small, distinct object, I can normally do a better job of keeping the sight steady.

Of course, it is possible the gun doesn't fit you well. Have you tried the small backstrap that comes with the PX4?

[iMagUdspEllr]

@MLeake: The smallest one is on it right now :/ . I dunno I just dry-fired it a little more and I wasn't snapping as much. I will have to see when I go to the range again how I do.

[MrBorland]

I don't know anything about your gun, but it sounds like a pretty crummy DA trigger, with an abrupt letoff (the jerk you feel when the sear releases) & lots of overtravel (trigger continues to move back after the sear releases).

Lots of dryfire practice is always good, but if it's a crummy trigger, it's a crummy trigger. Possibly a good gunsmith can help it some.

[irish52084]

Here's a tip that might help and it's all mental. I've used this to help guys shoot high powered hunting rifles a bit better at ranges under 200 yards. Try not to focus on the break of the trigger and instead focus on pulling through the break. It helps some people, but just keep practicing and it will get easier.

I recently forced myself to learn the DA pull on my CZ and it took lots of dry fire practice.

[jhenry]

Lay a dime flat on the slide just behind the front trigger. Assume the normal grip, forget about the sights, and pull through the DA while concentrating on not disturbing the dime. After a bit you will have it. Then do the same with the sights aligned You will notice little to no movement at this point. You have to be smooth to not drop the dime. This works very well.

[motorhead0922]

Are you gripping with one hand or two?

[iMagUdspEllr]

@MrBorland: Well I don't know anything about what a double action trigger should be, however I never really have problems with Glocks that have lots of pre-travel, a 5lb pull (This gun has ~9lb 5oz DA and a 5lb 7oz SA), and then a decent amount of over travel. I will check at my local gun store if my trigger pull might be sub-par.

@motorhead0922: I am trying to achieve zero sight movement with one hand. I do a pretty decent job two-handed with the double action but I'm not confident with it yet. With two hands it still wants to jump up and left slightly (if I was right handed I guess it would want to jump up and right). I don't have any groups of me shooting it in double action but here is a target of me shooting it SA. I notice that my groups are good but they are slightly off to the right by about a half inch. Which is why I suspect "gun fit" is the problem and I should curse my tiny hands lol.

The target is five 5-shot groups at ten yards slow fire.

[Eagle0711]

The pictures are a little confusing. One pict. your finger is along side of the gun and you finger has enough distance to the trigger. In the third pict. not enough of your finger is on the trigger.

You may have to turn the gun a little to the left so that you can get the first joint on the trigger so that you can press straight back. Looks like you need a bit more leverage.

Pull or press straight thru smoothly with no hesitation.

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Eagle0711: Because in one pic my finger is straight along the side of the frame. When I curve my finger down and into the trigger guard it naturally decreases my reach. I have heard about using the first joint on double action triggers but you can see that the trigger is far too wide for that technique and I won't be able to properly pull the trigger in single action after the first shot if I pull the trigger with my joint.

[serf 'rett]

Looked at the photos and was wondering if you can even reach the face (front surface) of the trigger with first knuckle or even the pad of your finger. I would think ideally, pressure is placed in the face of trigger to move it as straight back as possible; however, this will be difficult if you don't start on the trigger face.

[g.willikers]

Judging from the pictures, this particular pistol might be just too large for your hands, especially the width.
Your thumb looks even slightly too short for the mag release distance. Although being left handed you can use the trigger finger for that.
While it's always possible to get used to it, a different gun might be the answer.
With all the choices out there, why fight it.
I tried one of these and decided it was too wide for me, too.

[iMagUdspEllr]

Thanks. I appreciate all the help guys.

[Seaman]

Gun looks like it is a tad large for your hand.

With a lousy DA trigger I oil (lubricate) the trigger components liberally (slide off, lube from top allowing oil to work its way down, this usually helps, and then working action with snap caps. I always get oil running down the trigger, but just wipe it away.

Targets look fine, you will get better. Nice shooting.

Good luck.

[Mudinyeri]

If pic #519 shows the amount of finger you can get on the trigger ... the gun's not a good fit.

[motorhead0922]

I should curse my tiny hands lol.

If you are ever in the market for a compact or pocket gun (and you probably will be some day), your hands will be a blessing.

[Stressfire]

Well if you can't tell by my join date, I'm new. But I have been attempting to practice the same technique to get the hang of a DA/SA Beretta 92fs. Aside from dry firing at a small focal to practice (though I will definitely be trying the dime trick) and getting your finger used to the pull, which on mine at least is quite heavy in DA, I have just taken to manually drawing back the hammer every first shot. Problem averted to a certain extent, however, not ideal in a defense situation.

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Stressfire: I have done more research and study since the above posts and it might actually be that I was applying too MUCH trigger finger (at least when I was shooting single action for that target that I posted). Essentially I wasn't placing my finger correctly in double action or single action and I wasn't pulling the trigger straight back.

The reason why I was pulling to the left or upper left (I'm left handed) during dry-fire practice was due to a lack of firmness of grip not due to trigger technique (10 lb trigger + 28 oz gun + weak/inconsistent grip = front sight snaps left and (often) high). I just wasn't used to applying consistent grip pressure without tensing/loosening my grip as the double action trigger broke (never really used a trigger over 5 lbs before). So, basically I need to focus on applying a firm grip that doesn't decrease or increase in strength through the breaking of the trigger and be careful about putting the pad-tip of my finger on the trigger and pulling straight back.

It is pretty challenging because the increased grip strength required can cause you to tremor while you are trying to apply a 10 lb trigger pull which can also cause you to tremor until your trigger finger gets stronger. Now when I do everything right during dry-fire practice the front says stays stock still through the entire trigger pull and through the break. Definitely challenging for me.

I don't think you can "call it good" if you decide to ignore the first shot you will have to make by thumbing the hammer back into single action. That is why I'm trying to put a lot of effort into learning the DA trigger.

[shootniron]

Years ago as I started to really work on my DA trigger skills I found that hand and finger strength can go a long way toward cleaning up a bad trigger movement. I used grip training aides such as these on a daily basis for a couple months and it made a world of difference in my shooting.

[Eagle0711]

I see that your gun has an exposed hammer. You could cock it with your left thumb and have a shorter consistant trigger pull. You might want to try it out.

Years ago a prominant gun authority recommended firing the first shot away to get the SA pull. It has been shown to be bad advice.

[iMagUdspEllr]

@Eagle0711: ... I know? The target I posted was using only the single action pull. I am far too embarassed to photograph a target with me shooting double action... until I get better. I don't have much problems at all with the single action. I just need to learn the double action. I mean it will be the first and most important shot and I am not going to fumble with the hammer while I'm trying to defend myself... it would be far quicker to just use the first DA shot. But I have to learn that first shot first