ATF just ruled your "tactical" shotgun illegal

Ridge_Runner_5 · January 29, 2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Following this review, the working
group determined that certain shotgun features are not particularly suitable or readily adaptable
for sporting purposes. These features include:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.
Although the features listed above do not represent an exhaustive list of possible shotgun
features, designs or characteristics, the working group determined that shotguns with any one of
these features are most appropriate for military or law enforcement use. Therefore, shotguns
containing any of these features are not particularly suitable for nor readily adaptable to
generally recognized sporting purposes such as hunting, trap, sporting clay, and skeet shooting.
Each of these features and an analysis of each of the determinations are included within the main
body of the report..

Enjoy

rantingredneck · January 29, 2011, 04:14 PM

No, the working group determined that shotguns with those features do not meet the "sporting purposes" requirement of GCA '68. Meaning that if they are foreign made they cannot be imported. Those already in country or that are made in the USA aren't covered by this regulation.

Of course this is just the determination of the working group at this point and not final regulation.

KChen986 · January 29, 2011, 04:15 PM

Is this the publication of the proposed rule? Or the rule itself?

rantingredneck · January 29, 2011, 04:16 PM

This is the publication of their study, which is open for comment until May 1.

hogdogs · January 29, 2011, 04:16 PM

My Tactical shotgun has none of those items. It is made in America so it wouldn't matter if it did.

My standard Mossberg 500, as tactical as it is, just doesn't have a single item mentioned.

I am sure many of our Tactical shotguns are forever safe as they masquerade as innocent huntin' guns...

As tactical as any gun in my hands could be...

Brent

KChen986 · January 29, 2011, 04:18 PM

Okay. Just read it again. It is the study to influence a proposed rule. I strongly urge everyone who's interested to send comments to the ATF. This is not law, and looks like a first step in a long agency procedure to change the 'sporting purpose' interpretation.

What I find disturbing is the extremely narrow construction of "sporting purpose" by the ATF, which basically dismisses IPSC, 3 Gun and other shooting sports as "non sporting" and instead adopts a position the only (legitimate) sporting purpose is duck hunting and clay shooting.

**Mike Irwin** · January 29, 2011, 04:26 PM

Since discussion has opened on up this thread, I won't close it as a Cut & Paste shoot & scoot, which is clearly against TFL's rules of operation.

If you don't know what a Cut & Paste post is, click the forum rules link.

Ridge_Runner_5 · January 29, 2011, 06:54 PM

Sorry Mike, had just realized that and was coming back to start one...

p99guy · January 29, 2011, 07:03 PM

they need to get rid of that sporting purpose BS, as it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment...and is only used as incremental gun control.

RoscoeC · January 29, 2011, 07:05 PM

Off topic, but Man I have GOT to get me one of those Home Simpson "holsters".

Back on topic:

Recent events will make perfect grist for the anti gun mill. Expect all kinds of attacks on the Second Amendment.

Ridge_Runner_5 · January 29, 2011, 07:19 PM

Quote:

they need to get rid of that sporting purpose BS, as it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment

Agreed. 2nd Amendment had nothing to do with hunting...well, except red coats.

Christchild · January 29, 2011, 08:25 PM

I have a Mossberg 500 with Double Pistol Grip and holds a total of 8 rounds, so they'll be after mine, as I'd imagine that this "proposed" law will probably go thru, since they'll "give it to us" a little at a time, not all at once, and this issue falls into just that, I believe.

Maybe I should take heed, go ahead and convert it to either a slug gun or muzzleloader so I'll be legal when this hammer falls.

rantingredneck · January 29, 2011, 08:40 PM

Your Mossberg is a domestically produced shotgun that you already own. How could it be affected by a proposed import ban?

hogdogs · January 29, 2011, 08:42 PM

Christchild, the above is regarding an import ban. Basically it is similar to import rules that required a certain number of parts be replaced with american made items to circumvent these rule breaker items...

Brent

oneounceload · January 29, 2011, 08:59 PM

Can we merge all of these threads from all of the sections into one and suppress the BS scare mongering?

NOTHING has been banned...nada, zip, zilch...........they are doing a STUDY.......and basically so far agreeing with the intent of the previous studies from years past

Technosavant · January 29, 2011, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Can we merge all of these threads from all of the sections into one and suppress the BS scare mongering?

This. This marks thread #4 on this topic, and the second in the "shotgun" section in the forum (which, by the way, already spelled out what this ATF document was, has a link to it, and pretty well laid out where we currently stand).

Folks need to read and think and not post whatever rumor they heard at the gun shop this morning.

TheKlawMan · January 29, 2011, 09:43 PM

Like rantingredneck said, this is neither a rule nor a proposed rule. It is a study done by a working group and the study conludes with the recommendation of the working group that conducted the study that
shotguns with any of the characteristics or features listed above not be authorized for importation.

Hawk45 · January 30, 2011, 12:43 AM

Well, it caused a bit of a stir with folks that are fond of the Saiga 12. Bumped PSL/FPK rifle & Marlin SBL down a notch on the purchase queue and got a second Saiga 12 a little early.

MTT TL · January 30, 2011, 07:12 AM

Quote:

(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);

Quote:

the working group determined that shotguns with any one of
these features are most appropriate for military or law enforcement use.

And that is all I am going to say about that.

Technosavant · January 30, 2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Well, it caused a bit of a stir with folks that are fond of the Saiga 12.

That's amusing, because if you actually read the ATF paper, it is evident that the Saiga 12 won't be affected by the new rules. It has none of the evil features the ATF calls out.

Christchild · January 30, 2011, 11:28 AM

Thank You, Mr. Brent! I didn't click the link. I could have and read further, but the topic wasn't a surprise. I was WRONG about the details but it was not a surprise, considering all things.

ThreadJack is over! Carry On!

mycrobyte · January 30, 2011, 12:16 PM

The Saiga 12 as imported then wouldn't be affected, but as modified would be?

I'm already planning on getting one - they are amazing weapons, and the drum mag makes them really fun to shoot.

Do you think those drum mags will be gone soon then? Probably should get one now I suppose.

gyvel · January 30, 2011, 12:31 PM

Presumably, Norinco 97 Winchester trench gun copies will fall under such a ruling because they have bayonet lugs???

Technosavant · January 30, 2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

The Saiga 12 as imported then wouldn't be affected, but as modified would be?

Not likely.

I've been doing more reading on this, and my guess is 922r and its parts count will apply to the S12; it's discussed a bit here and there.

Thing is, as it is imported, the S12 is perfectly legal, since it is "sporting." If you make it nonsporting through a conversion, you need to have 10 or less imported parts. The S12 has about 13, maybe 14 (if threaded for chokes), parts as-is (according to the usual ATF count). Most conversions would mean swapping out no less than 5 parts (trigger group is 3 parts, plus the buttstock and pistol grip). Use US made mags, that's 3 more.

Basically, use a US made trigger group and stock/pistol grip, and you're fine. Mine currently has 7 US parts swapped out (the 5 I mentioned, plus the handguard and muzzle device), so either way I'm fine.

Here's a bit of a discussion on this, and from what I can tell, this will be nothing new for us.

Bartholomew Roberts · January 30, 2011, 03:59 PM

Actually, look at the definition of "Destructive Device" in 921(b):

"(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;"

If it isn't a sporting purpose for importation purposes and the Attorney General is the sole person to make the determination, what stops it from being applied to domestic shotguns and making them NFA weapons.

January 29, 2011, 04:14 PM	#2
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	No, the working group determined that shotguns with those features do not meet the "sporting purposes" requirement of GCA '68. Meaning that if they are foreign made they cannot be imported. Those already in country or that are made in the USA aren't covered by this regulation. Of course this is just the determination of the working group at this point and not final regulation. __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

January 29, 2011, 04:15 PM	#3
KChen986 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Location: Ninja Mall Posts: 818	Is this the publication of the proposed rule? Or the rule itself? __________________ E Pluribus Unum

January 29, 2011, 04:18 PM	#6
KChen986 Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Location: Ninja Mall Posts: 818	Okay. Just read it again. It is the study to influence a proposed rule. I strongly urge everyone who's interested to send comments to the ATF. This is not law, and looks like a first step in a long agency procedure to change the 'sporting purpose' interpretation. What I find disturbing is the extremely narrow construction of "sporting purpose" by the ATF, which basically dismisses IPSC, 3 Gun and other shooting sports as "non sporting" and instead adopts a position the only (legitimate) sporting purpose is duck hunting and clay shooting. __________________ E Pluribus Unum Last edited by KChen986; January 30, 2011 at 12:11 AM. Reason: misinterpretation

January 29, 2011, 04:26 PM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,382	Since discussion has opened on up this thread, I won't close it as a Cut & Paste shoot & scoot, which is clearly against TFL's rules of operation. If you don't know what a Cut & Paste post is, click the forum rules link. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 29, 2011, 07:03 PM	#9
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	they need to get rid of that sporting purpose BS, as it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment...and is only used as incremental gun control. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

January 29, 2011, 04:16 PM	#4
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	This is the publication of their study, which is open for comment until May 1. __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

January 29, 2011, 04:16 PM	#5
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	My Tactical shotgun has none of those items. It is made in America so it wouldn't matter if it did. My standard Mossberg 500, as tactical as it is, just doesn't have a single item mentioned. I am sure many of our Tactical shotguns are forever safe as they masquerade as innocent huntin' guns... As tactical as any gun in my hands could be... Brent

January 29, 2011, 06:54 PM	#8
Ridge_Runner_5 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,925	Sorry Mike, had just realized that and was coming back to start one...

January 29, 2011, 07:05 PM	#10
RoscoeC Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2006 Location: DFW Metromess Posts: 562	Off topic, but Man I have GOT to get me one of those Home Simpson "holsters". Back on topic: Recent events will make perfect grist for the anti gun mill. Expect all kinds of attacks on the Second Amendment. __________________ “Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." --Helen Keller "Do not cry havoc when you should but hunt with modest warrant." --William Shakespeare Glock Certified Armorer NRA Life Member

January 29, 2011, 08:25 PM	#12
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	I have a Mossberg 500 with Double Pistol Grip and holds a total of 8 rounds, so they'll be after mine, as I'd imagine that this "proposed" law will probably go thru, since they'll "give it to us" a little at a time, not all at once, and this issue falls into just that, I believe. Maybe I should take heed, go ahead and convert it to either a slug gun or muzzleloader so I'll be legal when this hammer falls.

January 29, 2011, 08:40 PM	#13
rantingredneck Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,728	Your Mossberg is a domestically produced shotgun that you already own. How could it be affected by a proposed import ban? __________________ NRA Member NC Hunter's Education Instructor PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

January 29, 2011, 08:42 PM	#14
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Christchild, the above is regarding an import ban. Basically it is similar to import rules that required a certain number of parts be replaced with american made items to circumvent these rule breaker items... Brent

January 29, 2011, 08:59 PM	#15
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Can we merge all of these threads from all of the sections into one and suppress the BS scare mongering? NOTHING has been banned...nada, zip, zilch...........they are doing a STUDY.......and basically so far agreeing with the intent of the previous studies from years past

January 29, 2011, 09:43 PM	#17
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Like rantingredneck said, this is neither a rule nor a proposed rule. It is a study done by a working group and the study conludes with the recommendation of the working group that conducted the study that shotguns with any of the characteristics or features listed above not be authorized for importation. Last edited by TheKlawMan; January 30, 2011 at 01:13 AM.

January 30, 2011, 12:43 AM	#18
Hawk45 Junior Member Join Date: November 21, 2005 Location: Virginia Beach, Va. Posts: 7	Well, it caused a bit of a stir with folks that are fond of the Saiga 12. Bumped PSL/FPK rifle & Marlin SBL down a notch on the purchase queue and got a second Saiga 12 a little early.

January 30, 2011, 11:28 AM	#21
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	Thank You, Mr. Brent! I didn't click the link. I could have and read further, but the topic wasn't a surprise. I was WRONG about the details but it was not a surprise, considering all things. ThreadJack is over! Carry On!

January 30, 2011, 12:16 PM	#22
mycrobyte Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Posts: 32	The Saiga 12 as imported then wouldn't be affected, but as modified would be? I'm already planning on getting one - they are amazing weapons, and the drum mag makes them really fun to shoot. Do you think those drum mags will be gone soon then? Probably should get one now I suppose.

January 30, 2011, 12:31 PM	#23
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Presumably, Norinco 97 Winchester trench gun copies will fall under such a ruling because they have bayonet lugs???

January 30, 2011, 03:59 PM	#25
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Actually, look at the definition of "Destructive Device" in 921(b): "(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter;" If it isn't a sporting purpose for importation purposes and the Attorney General is the sole person to make the determination, what stops it from being applied to domestic shotguns and making them NFA weapons.