Fair Chase?

[Art Eatman]

I dunno. If a deer has several thousand acres in which to roam freely, I don't see what difference the height of the fence makes.

In brushy country like central Texas or the area generally south and southwest of San Antonio, a spooked buck isn't going to go more than a few hundred yards, even if there's no fence at all. For one thing, he doesn't have to. Again: Even with no fence at all, a whitetail is going to generally stay within a section, give or take a little.

Just for exaggeration and giggles, I'd hate to see the west pasture of the 02 Ranch called a "pen", if it were high fenced. Hwy 118 road frontage is 28 miles, and it's 17 miles deep.

To get away from deer, what about antelope? Are all antelope on fenced ranches penned? Antelope won't jump fences.

I dunno. I've just made bunches of several-mile walking-hunting circles inside of fenced pastures without ever seeing the fence. I figured the deer had more chance to get away than I had of killing him, pretty much. Wouldn't have mattered how high was the fence.

Now, LBJ's oat patch is another story for another time.

[reloader28]

Art
You are mostly right about antelope not jumping fences. 99% go under or thru a gate, but I have personally seen maybe a 1/2 dozen jump a fence. It is a rarety.

[Gunplummer]

I really don't know what is or isn't fair chase. I used to trap when I was a kid, so I can't say a lot about it. The people to ask is the non-hunters out there. There are really a lot of people that do not hunt, but have nothing against hunting, until they see some of those T.V. shows. I definitely got an ear-full from some of them until I explained that I don't shoot half-tame deer out on a clover field.

[Double Naught Spy]

Yeah, fair chase is a misnomer. Few of us want to give notice to the animals we are about to kill and to give them a fair chance to fight or a fair chance to get away. And then if we do want to give fair notice, we aren't going to fight fairly.

[Dannyl]

To get away from deer, what about antelope? Are all antelope on fenced ranches penned? Antelope won't jump fences.

This is not applicable to hunters that are not in Africa, but Kudu can clear a
6' fence from a standstill, they do it gracefully without needing to take a run.

Brgds,
Danny

[nate45]

I'm fairly certain that if you put a couple dozen deer, in a hundred acres of fenced in woods. Then let a hunter walk hunt, still hunt whatever you want to call it; the odds are good on him never seeing one of them.

The whole idea that hunting thousands, or often times tens of thousands of acres that are high fenced is unfair; is in my opinion an odd notion.

I here by decree that all deer hunting, that is not done on free range, open land, utilizing only a long bow, is unfair.

[Todd1700]

How do you define fair chase hunting?

Well the generally accepted meaning of the term is hunting animals that are truely wild and not in a pen. Some would expand that to say no high fence at all. But I agree with Art that a high fence around 1000's of acres is a totally different situation than one around 30 acres.

I do not advocate making high fence hunting illegal anymore than I'd want it made illegal for a farmer to slaughter a domesticated pig or chicken in a pen on his farm. I simply have a problem with some of what I see on some of these TV shows being called hunting. Call it what it is, "paying to be the one who gets to slaughter a prize animal raised in captivity for that specific purpose". Cause that's what it is at some of these places.

How can you tell when what you are doing has ceased to be hunting? Here are a few tips.

1. If you see a huge buck but cannot shoot him, not because you didn't have a clear shot, but because you can't afford the trophy fee on one his size, you may not actually be hunting.

2. If you are in North America and see a big buck you want to shoot but have to wait for a orynx, a kudu and a nubian ibex to get out of the way before you have a clear shot, you might not actually be hunting.

3. If the outfitter insists that a guide sit in the shooting house with you to make sure you shoot the "right" buck, you might not actually be hunting.

4. If the ranch you are own has every years shed antlers from every buck, a yearly photgraph of every buck, and has named every shooter buck on the place, you might not actually be hunting.

5. And finally, if you pull in to the lodges parking lot and spot Alan Warren AKA: "the Chevy Sportsman", let all doubt fade from your mind, no type of real hunting has ever occured at that place or he would not be there.

[Art Eatman]

Thanks, Todd.

Naw, there are parts of my south pasture where the mesquite brush is so thick that you couldn't find Bucky in just one acre, much less several. All he'd have to do to escape would be to lower his head. Parts of it, he'd have to stand on his hind legs and bellow at you or you'd never know he was there.

Best to watch hunting shows on TV with the sound off. Your ears are less offended by inanities, that way. Just enjoy the pictures of critters.

[ZeroJunk]

I would hate to guess how many deer I have had within 30 yards bow hunting and could not get a shot. Elk also for that matter.

[doofus47]

I have a friend who only "hunts animals that can hunt you back"> wild pigs, bears, mtn. lions--and is saving up for cape buffalo trip.
I wouldn't get into a pen with any of those... I think he wins the fair-chase award.

Here in the rockies, we have enough public land that still hunting is the norm. Fair chase involves, at minimum, no baiting. If I were one of my cousins in the Midwest, you have to find a farmer willing to let you use his back 30; in that case, I would be using a stand and scouting for game trails. Still fair chase in my opinion.

If I were setting up feeders within 75 yards of a blind, that would take most of what I find joyful and fulfilling from hunting. You can debate whether it's fair chase, but I would rather spend the day playing cards with friends.

[Dannyl]

Hi,
I hunt on foot, and stalk close to the game, yet in my last hunt I have had the following:

1. had to wait about 10 minutes for some Black Wildebeest to move, they were behind the springbok that I wanted to shoot. (I was hunting Springbok that afternoon and simply ignoring other species.) Once the BW moved on, I got within less than 80 M and shot the Ram that I wanted.

2. This side of the world all hunting is done on private land, and unlike the US you do not get allocated a certain number of bucks, you have to pay for what you shoot.Thanks to the excessive generotisty of hunters from out-of-Africa(mainly Europe and the USA)prices have escalated incredibley, and as soon as a buck's horns go beyond a certain size his price goes up radically. Since I hunt for meat, I do check the size of the horns and make sure that I do not shoot one of the trophie size bucks. this does not mean that I shoot the smallest, but in the existing circumstances it is (for most of us here) too expensive to shoot the biggest bucks. in a few occassions where I was not going to be ripped off if I shoot a very large buck (horns size) I have shot some Kudu and Oryx that make the Rowland Ward book.

Furthermore, many farmers charge more for bulls, while others charge as much as double for cows (bucks, not cattle) being shot. in some cases it means that you have to examine your quarry carefully to determine the sex and size of horns if you do not want to shoot your budget through the vitals.

May I ask you why you consider a person who does not shoot the first animal he sees (regardless of species and size) as a hunter?

To me it seems as it is more demanding than walking (or ambushing) and shooting the first buck that crosses your path.


Brgds,

Danny

PS, on Wednesday I am off again for a few days of hunting, this time there are Springboks, Kudu and Oryx on my "to do" list

[shortwave]

I would hate to guess how many deer I have had within 30yds bow hunting and could not get a shot.

You and me both, ZeroJunk.

I had a 170 class buck 23yds from my tree stand and he just wouldn't present a clean shot. He turned and walked straight away from me with sparse brush and tree limbs in the way.

Guess there is a downside to being up in a tree.

I often wonder if some of the opinions are coming from hunters that have never bow hunted in a stand before. There's so much more to it than just climbing in a tree and hoping for bambi to come trotting by. The scouting alone is tremendously time consuming.

[Buzzcook]

The animal has a chance to get away and the hunter will only take clean shots.

It's been said that high fenced land is measured in sections rather than acres. But the land owners probably know to within an acre where the game is at any time of day and can lead a hunter right to them.
I'm not saying it isn't fair chase, but it isn't the same as wild hunting either.

[Todd1700]

1. had to wait about 10 minutes for some Black Wildebeest to move, they were behind the springbok that I wanted to shoot.

DannyL, you missed the first part where I said, "If you are in North America and see a big buck you want to shoot but have to wait for a orynx, a kudu and a nubian ibex to get out of the way before you have a clear shot, you might not actually be hunting."

Orynx, kudu and nubian ibex are not indigenous to North America. They exist nowhere in the wild here. Therefore anywhere they are roaming the same land as whitetail deer in the U.S.A they have obviously been shipped in to a high fence operation. My comments (which were intended to be funny) were in no way intended to refer to Africa where these animals naturally exist.

[Art Eatman]

Actually, Todd, the oryx of New Mexico are free ranging, on federal land. Same on the 02 Ranch's east pasture. Sheep/goat fence--100,000 acres; seems pretty free to me. Sometimes they're as bad as pronghorn antelope, standing by the highway fence, counting cars.

Buzzcook, the fence height makes no nevermind about knowing where Ol' Bucky hangs out. Hunt the same pasture for a few years and you get a pretty good handle in any season about which buck hangs out where. A bunch of us leased a 7,000-acre ranch not far north of Uvalde for a few years, and we darned near got to naming some of the pets. Most of us used the first part of the season for scouting, so by Christmas we pretty much knew who lived where.

My old family place near Austin was regular cow fence. There was one really nice buck back in the woods that played tag with me for about four or five years. He was always in the same place, just inside the edge and near the old haul road. He'd follow me when I was out ambling around checking fence, staying just out of clear sight. I never told any of my friends where to look for him, though...

[Prof Young]

Hunters:

I use bows, guns, scopes, camouflage, tree stands etc when I deer hunt. I give my natural self a tremendous advantage over the deer.

For me to hunt in a truly 100 per cent "fair" manner, I'd have to walk into the woods naked and wrestle the deer to death with my bare hand.

Live well, be safe
prof Young

[Art Eatman]

"I'd have to walk into the woods naked and wrestle the deer to death with my bare hand."

I'd pay cash money to watch that!

Anybody wanna guess which way I'd bet?

[hooligan1]

If you look back on the countless trips we've all made to the out-doors....Didn't you complete your check-list, cartridges, binoculars, scents, calls, oh and by the way the thought of giving my prey a fair chance?. Nope can't ever remember that one. We could all set back and think about ethics and sportsmanship. But when it comes down to it fenced or not, can you live with your feeling of self-accomplishment when the day is through? Sometimes after a day of hunting, whether or not, if it was easy or hard, I take a mental checklist and see if I fully enjoyed, and took it all in. And if I did,I feel like a blessed soul...The deer that I have hunted and killed over the years not once looked to me like they wer'e concerned if I was truly being fair or not.. Sometimes what we see on videos looks way too easy, and I admit some of the characters in those videos, couldn't hunt their way out of K-mart..Hunt public ground like I do and your bound to see everything. And as far as seeing a grown man naked wrestling a deer... I can't expound on that one, I just hope no animals will be hurt during the filming of it! Hunt where you can brother's and hunt hard, it'll make you feel better.

Thanks for coming

[Prof Young]

Actually, the deer would have the advantage due to antlers, strength and natural cammo. So the naked man could be tattooed in a a cammo pattern, get a month to work out in the gym, and gets to carry pitch fork as a weapon. Then it would be fair.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young

[jgcoastie]

gets to carry pitch fork as a weapon

To paraphrase an earlier poster:
No magnum pitch forks!!!

[Double Naught Spy]

And the pitchfork would have to be ducttaped to his head.

[shortwave]

And the pitchfork would have to be ducttaped to his head

A naked man with a pitchfork ducttaped to his head in the middle of the woods wrestling a deer..

If I came across this sight, don't know which I'd shoot. Deer or the man.

[TX Hunter]

I guess you could look at it this way.
Man is the Apex Preditor, at least for now.
So I guess any tactic, could be concidered natural, although at times a fellow Man, might disagree.
If that makes sense.

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, but humans are only apex predators because of cultural implements. Culture is not considered nature. Take away the cultural implements and humans readily drop off the apex.

[TX Hunter]

How could you call cultural impliments not natural. when It was Man that made them?
You take a Stranded man, in a Wild environment, and more than likely the first thing he will do is Pick up a Club to defend himself.