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Old July 26, 2014, 08:42 PM   #1
noelf2
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Unusual percussion double shotgun

I brought home a shotgun from the gun show today. I've never seen anything like it before, but someone here probably has. It's a percussion double .410 shotgun, stamped "Made in Belgium" on the right barrel. Looks to be in real nice condition. I'm sure it's some sort of reproduction based on it's condition. There's something stuck in that right barrel though. I pulled an oily piece of tow wadding out of it but there's something still in there, but it can't be more than 1/8 inch thick since that's the difference in the ramrod when I drop it in the barrels. I took the nipples off but can't get a good angle to see what's in there. I put that nipple back on and popped a cap to see if I could get the obstruction out, not. I tried some powder down under the nipple and popped a cap, twice, and still don't get any movement. Totally obstructed, can't even get any air or water through that barrel. Think I'll take this to a smith and see what's up. Would really like to get both barrels working. Pics attached, with my 10 gauge above it for comparison.
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Old July 26, 2014, 09:08 PM   #2
Model12Win
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Wow, it's a good n'!
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Old July 27, 2014, 08:17 AM   #3
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Have you tried pouring a good lubricant, or maybe something stronger, down that barrel and into the nipple hole, and letting it sit there for awhile?
Then poke around down there with something that can chip away at whatever is there.
Possibly hard cruded powder or shot.
With no rifling to worry about, it won't hurt anything to try.
Maybe from the nipple side with a stiff wire, too.
You might get lucky.
You can also try using a skinny nail and light blows from a hammer through the nipple hole, gently, of course.
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Old July 27, 2014, 08:56 AM   #4
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I did try to poke a piece of wire into the nipple side but being only a .410 there's not a lot of room to work, and I could end up damaging the threading. I haven't poured anything into the bore for soaking yet but I had figured on doing that. What won't hurt the bore? Heard of folks using Kroil, but is there something better?

Edit: filled up the flash channel with some old Outers Nitro Solvent and am letting it soak. Going to look around for some rigid plastic rod that I can poke around with in there. If this doesn't work, I'll pour some down the barrel and soak there too.
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Old July 27, 2014, 09:13 AM   #5
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Very nice looking buy. Good luck on getting the barrel cleared.
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Old July 27, 2014, 09:26 AM   #6
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I'd also get a slightly undersized drill with which I would ream out the nipple. High Speed Steel should work because you're not cutting metal but fouling buildup.
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Old July 27, 2014, 09:48 AM   #7
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Gary the nipples were both clear, which surprised me! I'll let this soak for a day or two, then try to push out (or scrape out) the obstruction. I have some brass punches that I'll try through the flash channel. They should bend a bit and still offer some rigidity while tapping and shouldn't hurt the threading. Will ruin the punches but I can get more of them.
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Old July 27, 2014, 10:09 AM   #8
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Brass wire stock then from a hobby shop. Don't ruin your punches. Wire stock is cheaper.
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Old July 27, 2014, 10:28 AM   #9
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Very nice piece and keep digging.

Have you tried to get a screw jag to bite into what ever is down there. I have seen bore plugged with the darkness things. On one occasion, I purposely double dry-balled a bore. Being a shotgun, I suspect your might have a fiber was as well as God knows what else, down there. Once you start getting samples of the material, from down there, it will give you a better idea of what you are dealing with. .....

Please keep us updated on what your find. I suspect that it hasn't been down there, that long.

Be Safe !!!
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Old July 27, 2014, 11:11 AM   #10
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Quote:
Have you tried to get a screw jag to bite into what ever is down there.
Yes. I took the brass guide sleeve off of my 50 cal ball puller and threaded the screw into my hawken ramrod. Rod wasn't quite long enough but I could get a feel for what's down there. Whatever it is, it is quite hard or very compacted, and I couldn't get anything to come out. My brass cleaning rods aren't long enough either. If I can break it free after the soaking, I'll dry it out and try the cap and powder in the flash channel again.
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Old July 27, 2014, 09:47 PM   #11
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You don't say how long the barrel is but you might have to get some steel rod and weld two pieces together and then weld a wood screw to the end or thread it for a worm or a ball screw.

I don't know if that gun is a recent repro or one of the guns made in Belgium for sale in the "third world" (before they got AK-47's), but I am pretty sure it is not contemporary with the original use of the percussion system. I do know the "country of origin" mark was not used on imports until c. 1900.

Jim
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Old July 28, 2014, 03:43 AM   #12
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Try my old standby: Go to you local tree hugger health food store and buy a bottle of "100% pure, natural wintergreen oil" (NOT the Walgreen's stuff), and pour some of that into the bore from both side, i.e. nipple and muzzle. It's a super penetrant, and won't damage anything on the gun, plus it's non-toxic and smells good.

Next, after you let it soak a couple days (with repeated applications) I would go with Jim Keenen's suggestion of making a homemade worm or ball screw and see it you can get a bite on whatever is in there. You didn't mention whether it was hard or not, but I'm wondering if some kind of wad is stuck in there.
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Old July 28, 2014, 05:56 AM   #13
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Gyvel I will give the wintergreen oil a try if the outers doesn't do the trick. Outers is supposed to dissolve lead deposits, so I'm hoping that will eat away at any shot and crud in there, or at least enough so I can tap out the obstruction. I'm now thinking there isn't anything big like a ball in there because the ramrod bottoms out pretty much the same on both barrels (only about 1/8" deeper on the good barrel), and I'm hitting something hard which could very well be the breech end of the barrel. I'm thinking there's something in the flash channel, and I should be able to scrape or tap that out of there.
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Old July 28, 2014, 07:21 AM   #14
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It looks to be a modern repro. Maybe one of the Am. Arms or Century imports . Cool buy , i really like the .410 and have collected more then a few through the years .

What I would do is pull the nipple . Check the flash channel and see how corroded it is , as well as what size it is.
Since the Breech plugs look to be of the improved type. You might get lucky and the flash channels simply angle forward in a strait line .
If so , you can pick up a piece of 1/16 piano wire which will flex enough , unless you hit a 90 deg angle , to slide through . Thus if it is a wad you will be able to feel that its soft.
OR you could put a ball puller on a RR and drop it down the barrel . If the obstruction is hard , the rod will bound when it hit. If its soft like a wad , it will make kind of a thud with very little rebound

Some of the other things I have found stuck in SXS that you might run into besides wads or cards
*) I once found the end of a ball puller stuck in the flash channel of a plug. Some how the PO got the ball puller jamed hard enough into the flash channel that it wouldn’t come out and then broke off .
*) I have found copper pennies . While I can say for sure but IMO this came from someone who had a leaking , improperly fitted breech plug . So they tried to make a shim/washer for the breech face from a copper penny . But what happened was that the penny turned as the plug was tightened down . They apparently couldn’t figure out how or didn’t have the tools to drill the channel back open . Thus blocking the flash channel of the barrel .
*) breech plug was never drilled all the way through . I have seen this more then a few times not only on SXS but also Imported rifles . In fact there was a person on another forum that I moderate , which just had this problem with a CVA
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Old July 28, 2014, 08:14 AM   #15
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Buy a automotive grease fitting that fits your nipple threads and screw it in place. More than likely a metric 6.75mm Zerk fitting may very well fit.
Pump chassis grease into the barrel via its nipple's firing channel. Whatever is in there will move forward and up the barrel. Don't even have to buy a Plews grease gun.
Simply take the barrel to a full service gas station and have the back room mechanic use the stations pressured grease gun instead. For 5.00 $ your barrels cleared and you get to keep what grease is left in the barrel for the door locks on your pick-up. What a Perk!!
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Old July 28, 2014, 08:49 AM   #16
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I appreciate all the good suggestions!

Quote:
It looks to be a modern repro. Maybe one of the Am. Arms or Century imports .
That's what I thought too because of it's condition, but I can't find any evidence that Belgium made any percussion shotguns after the 1950's.

Quote:
What I would do is pull the nipple . Check the flash channel and see how corroded it is , as well as what size it is.
Since the Breech plugs look to be of the improved type. You might get lucky and the flash channels simply angle forward in a strait line .
There's no corrosion in there at all, and the angle is less than 90 degree, but enough to give me some trouble. I'm pretty sure I can tap a wire through there though. I can push a small cable tie in the flash channel of the other barrel straight into the bore.

Quote:
I once found the end of a ball puller stuck in the flash channel of a plug. Some how the PO got the ball puller jamed hard enough into the flash channel that it wouldn’t come out and then broke off .
This is my biggest worry. How did you remove it?
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Old July 28, 2014, 09:37 AM   #17
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Captchee wrote:
Quote:
breech plug was never drilled all the way through . I have seen this more then a few times not only on SXS but also Imported rifles . In fact there was a person on another forum that I moderate , which just had this problem with a CVA
I guess this is my second biggest worry. Is this likely (how would the barrel have been proofed)? Can this be fixed, or if there something hard steel like a piece of ball puller broke off in the flash channel, can that be drilled out?
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Old July 28, 2014, 07:39 PM   #18
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How I go the broken ball puller out was to pull the breech and remove it .
Same with breech plugs which have not been drilled through .

Yes they also could carry a proof and not be drilled . The reason for that is that is that a proof mark does not mean the barrel has actually been subject to proof as a lot of manufactures batch proof . In other words not every gun goes to proof . Instead at intervals a piece is selected and subject to proof . As long as the piece passes proof , then the maker retains their ability to mark their barrels

What’s the lily hood of having a breech slip through , un drilled ???? Cant say but I bet its slim . In 30+ years I have only seen maybe 3 and one of those technically was drilled . But just enough for the bit to break through

dont get all worked up over it . im sure its nothing but an old hard card . if by chance it hasnt been drilled or there is something plugging it , simply have sopmeone pull the breech plug and clear it or dfinish drilling .
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Old July 28, 2014, 08:51 PM   #19
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Well I'm a bit disappointed. I took the nipple back off after the flash channel soaked in solvent for a day, and I can see now that the flash channel was filled with something metallic (from the nipple side) and then a drill was used to drill down into it from the nipple hole. Maybe the nipple threading went and they tried to reform it, but dicked it up good and proper. They drilled almost through to the bottom of the barrel / breech plug. There is no flash channel into the barrel on that side. I can feel a bit of a hole from the barrel side using a long thin metal rod, but what fills the hole is hard. On the other barrel, I can push the rod all the way till I can see it at the nipple hole. I doubt this can be repaired. I might take or send it to a gunsmith to see if something can be done, but for now it's a single shot .410. Damn.
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Old July 29, 2014, 03:50 AM   #20
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Misunderstood earlier when making my comment. Thought there was something stuck in its barrel other than a tool tip. Sorry to hear someone bunged up one of its barrels nipple threads & flash channel prior to your ownership. I would think there must be some sort of fix available. But at what cost. If the shotgun was a family heirloom Id say go for it. But in this case I'm not so sure the cost of the repair will be below the shotguns real value. One thing for sure. You taught us to be weary when it comes to purchasing a used B/P shotgun or rifle without some guarantee's. That's for sure.
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Old July 29, 2014, 05:37 AM   #21
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well thats to bad .
but all is not lost . as long as the barrel itself has not been damaged , a new plug is all thats needed .
getting the plug out might not be fun if they drilled through and distorted the threads on the plug though .
as was mentioned , the cost is something of a concern . if you know someone with a michine shop , turning a new plug would not be a big ordeal. ifyou can get the old one out
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Old July 29, 2014, 06:53 AM   #22
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I have seen nipples with over sized threads listed some where, may be Dixie Gun Works.
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Old July 29, 2014, 07:43 AM   #23
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Nipple fits fine. No problem there. There's just no hole for the fire to get to the powder. It could be as Captchee said, the flash hole may never have been drilled through the breech plug on that side. I'm only speculating, but either someone tried to drill a flash hole from the nipple side of the breech plug and, of course, couldn't find it at that angle and drilled too far. Or they had trouble with the nipple and tried to fill and re-drill the hole (but there's no indication that the original nipple hole threads were damaged in any way). Not sure. Perhaps a gunsmith can drill out the hole all the way to the under side of the breech plug, then thread the hole and put a steel screw in there (sort of like the cleanout screw on the drum of a T/C Hawken). Then drill out the flash channel with a rod and drill bit long enough to go into the bore and through to the hole in the breech plug. Way too complicated for me, but a pro might be able to do it.
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Old July 29, 2014, 06:26 PM   #24
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Take the breech plug out and see whats going on.
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Old July 29, 2014, 08:34 PM   #25
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Yeah I'd love to, but considering my luck so far with this shotgun, I'd end up breaking off the hook. The tang hooks on this 410, as well as the breech plugs, are little bitty. Anyone know a good black powder gunsmith that would be willing to give this thing a go? Or confirm it's a goner?
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