Should I? .20 ga. dble. Spanish manf.(Eibar?)

wine9er · December 15, 2001, 07:46 PM

Neighbor wants to unload .20 ga.dble
-- "25 1/2 in., real wood, hand checkering, mirror-like barrel interiors, extractors, vent. shooting pad, ornate top lever stainless steel etchings, looks like '70's vintage, little wear, current owner had it 15 yrs. and never fired. $450
--Problem: I don't like buying something I don't know. Neither of us can figure out manf., let alone understand if reputable. Possible off-label production run?

sheaman · December 15, 2001, 11:56 PM

Cant go wrong. Could have been made by any number of firms inn that region. Sounds llike a go.

C.R.Sam · December 16, 2001, 12:08 AM

I'd spend some time researchin it before spendin that kind of bucks on an unknown.

Did a quick run through Shooters Bible and Gun Digest of that general era and didn't find it cataloged. Not in Fjestad either.

Sam

PJR · December 16, 2001, 12:09 AM

Eibar is a place in Northern Spain and the home of Spanish gunmaking. There is no company named Eibar but from time to time you will see guns so marked. It is presumed these are guns made by various gun workers possibly associated with the Spanish trade.

I'm assuming this is a side by side. Look at the various markings on the action flats and the barrels. These are proof marks, date marks and possibly a maker's mark. Take a look and post a description of all of the marks. I might be able to help with a couple of the reference books I have.

Dave McC · December 16, 2001, 01:34 PM

Spanish guns vary greatly in quality. Some are junk, others as good as anything ever made. Copy all the markings and post in Harley's forum here and the Shooting Sportsman BB, where there's lots of double fans.

Most of the Spanish guns I see are middle quality guns, and function well with light loads. This wouldn't be a good choice for heavier stuff, steel or slugs. For birds, yes...

wine9er · December 19, 2001, 11:53 PM

encouraged by your comments and suggestions I did the recommended research. Hopefully, it may yield some clues:
Top side, right barrel--"Cig-eibar-spain"..."C" could also be an "E"
Top side, left barrel--"20 gauge magnum"
Foream under markings--"8620", icon that looks like crossed
rifles or cannon barrels (very rough
markings").
Underside,left barrel--left section--gauge 14.6/15.8 & "K's" in
small circle.
right section--"F.S. No. 8620"/icon that
has "20-76" in unclosed oblong
circle/"F.S." (?) in small circle Underside, right barrel-- left section--gauge 15.4/15.8 & "1130"
& "Gmos"marked alongside
right section--first icon"X" encircled with
knighthead or birdhead on top; 2nd icon is
crossed rifles or cannon barrels; 3rd icon
is"BP" along with small oblong circle
enclosed in larger circle.
"850kgs"
other: sxs w/etching of two pheasants/side.
Effort was worth it as shotgun will be used vs. hung. and I'm worried about poorly-tempered parts.
Thanks everyone,Hopefully this process will be instructive for those that follow!

PJR · December 20, 2001, 10:32 AM

Ah, the mysteries of Spanish Guns. Hard to know without seeing the gun but here's what I can tell you:

The "C(E?)ig-eibar-spain" marking doesn't match up with any of the better known manufacturers. It could however by an importers mark. There was an importer in Florida who used a marking close to this.

8620 is likely the serial number.

The icon that looks like crossed rifles or cannon barrels is a provisional proof.

The 15.8 marking is the bore size. The 14.6 and 15.4 are choke indications. The gun sounds like it is very tightly choked -- at least modified and full.

"20-76" is the gauge and chamber length in metric which translates to 3".

"1130" & "Gmos" is the barrel weight.

The 3 icons you mentioned are all proof marks.

"850kgs" is the proof pressure. This will handle all modern loads.

Based on these proofs, this is a modern made gun probably sometime in the last 20 years. I suspect your friend bought it new.

"F.S." Although I am not sure, I suspect this stands for Felix Sarasqueta. Sarasqueta is a pretty common gunmaking name in Spain with Victor Sarasqueta being the best known. Victor Sarasqueta went under in the early 80s but was the largest gunmaker in Spain for many decades.

Felix, a relative of some sort, made lower-priced, utility grade guns attempting to trade on the name association. These guns are solid performers on par with the Laurona and Zabala boxlocks.

The Spaniards often made guns under different labels but each of them have undergone the Spanish proof testing so I wouldn't worry about the safety of the gun. The belief that Spanish steel is poorly tempered dates back to the 50's and 60's and they have certainly worked to improve their products since then.

The only caution I would have is whether it is a single or double trigger gun. Spanish single triggers do not have the best reputation particularly the selective triggers.

With sxs prices going higher and higher each year, the price for the gun doesn't sound too bad but it's no steal. It's hard to see how you could get in to a sxs for less.

Paul

PS. You might want to look again for a single letter or letter and single number combination. This is the date mark. If you find one, post it and I might be able to tell you when this gun was made.

wine9er · December 23, 2001, 02:46 AM

Thanks to everyone for their imput. Today we went to a gunshow and bought a .20 870 for less than $300. Loved flirting w/that Spanish beauty but after listening to the neighbors went and took the nice girl to the prom.

Dave McC · December 23, 2001, 07:00 AM

You're welcome. Now,buy ammo, use up, repeat.....

PJR · December 23, 2001, 08:47 AM

Sounds like a marriage made in heaven. Good choice.

I've never owned an 870 in 20 gauge but I did wring one out on the skeet range a few weeks ago. I told the owner that if he ever considered selling it....

This is why I often hate trying other people's guns.

MikeS · December 24, 2001, 07:05 PM

PJR,

I just came into possession of a Spanish made (imported by Armsport)
10ga SxS. It's a brute with many of the same markings
described by wine9er. There is a stamp on the bottom on each
barrel which may indicate that the gun was made in 10-89. It
has double triggers and is marked for F&F chokes.

My question is this: With the proof pressure listed at 1000, do you feel
that the barrels can safely handle modern 3.5" loads, including
the use of buckshot?

I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks.

Mike

PJR · December 24, 2001, 09:46 PM

Mike:

I can't say whether the gun is safe without seeing it and even then I might not be be absolutely sure.

Armsport was an importer and distibutor. The Armsport guns as I recall were made by Hermanos Zabala. Look for a ZH marking on the action. The 10-89 marking is not a date of manufacturer but the gauge and chamber length in millimeters. 89mm is 3.5" and so your gun was proofed for 10 gauge 3.5" shells at 1000 kgs.

If it were mine, I would give it a try in the absence of pitting, dents or other obvious signs of barrel abuse. But again I only know what the gun was proofed for and can't say it is safe without seeing it myself.

Paul

wine9er · December 24, 2001, 10:05 PM

Curious to the resemblence to the SxS that I stumbled over (see details in my original post). What are the main differences that you noted? What is asking price?

MikeS · December 25, 2001, 02:58 AM

Paul

I appreciate your response especially on a Christmas Eve and I
didn't mean to put you in an awkward spot regarding gun quality
and safety. Ultimately, that has to be my determination and
responsibility.

Thanks for clarifying the significance of the 10-89 and you were right,
there is a ZH marking on the action. The barrels, both inside
and out, have mirrored finishes, so it looks like it's a go to try the
3.5" shells. I hope it works because I love the size of this piece
of artillery. Thanks again.

Wine9er,

The resemblence (as you have described very well) is in the three
icons which apparently represent provisional proofs. The differences
are that one barrel is marked Armsport (Miami) while
the other says 10ga, 3.5". the Gmos on mine is 2720 vs. the 1130 on
yours. This shotgun is an 11 pounder.

I took a chance and bought the Spanish 10ga on AuctionArms for
$320. I have a couple of shotguns, all new: An Ithaca & Benelli
Nova Pump and a Beretta 1201 auto. This latest addition is just
a whim. I wanted something I could play with, modify, without spending
a lot of money. I'm taking a chance that it will work and not break down.

Best holiday wishes,

Mike

PJR · December 26, 2001, 08:42 PM

Mike:

Thanks for your comments. I'm a little cautious about saying any gun is safe or not. That's up to the user as you noted.

Enjoy your Zabala 10. Sounds like a great gun for geese. Incidentally, Weatherby is having their new line of sxs guns made by Zabala. That sounds like a pretty good endorsement to me.

Paul

Pags523 · September 18, 2004, 05:02 PM

I wish to thank you for your help. I have the following additional information on the O/U can anyone decipher these:

Upper Barrel-Right Side
L. MORENO-MIAMI FLA
1100 Kp/cm2

Upper Barrel-Left Side
FELIX SARASKETA y CIA EIBAR-SPAIN
-FA-D ** 15,8

Lower Barrel-Right Side
1100 Kp/cm2

Lower Barrel-Left Side
-FA-D ****
14009 ''' US 15,8

Water Table Marks
L 1931
F.S.C. 20-76
CAI ST.A. VT.

I know that the F.S.C. is the Felix Sarasketa proof mark, that the importer was L.Moreno in FL. And that 20-76 means it?s a 20 ga., with a 3" or 76mm chamber. Also the 1100 Kp/cm2 is the maximum pressure for the barrels. Thanks to other members I know that the barrels are IM and IC. Once again thanks in advance for you help.
Nick

gordo b. · September 18, 2004, 08:57 PM

Here's the deal on the 10 ga: You can't shoot steel in it, means no migratory game birds (ducks geese) . Sooooo why don't you do like I did and have it professionally cut to 20" (18" looks weird , too short) and the barrel rib gap filled with lead and dress off and a new BIG bead put on. Then you have the ultimate scattergun which holds 18 OO buck per (thats TWO standard 12 guage worth!!!!!) shot!! Mine never ceases to draw attention at cowboy shoots

LAK · September 23, 2004, 02:10 PM

I had a Zabala 12 in the early 70s, probably a 60s manufacture. Very nice figured wood with beavertail fore-end, grayed receiver with engraving; solid, well finished and very easy to hit with. Very foolishly traded it in for a new gun later on.

December 15, 2001, 07:46 PM	#1
wine9er Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: ca. Posts: 44	Should I? .20 ga. dble. Spanish manf.(Eibar?) Neighbor wants to unload .20 ga.dble -- "25 1/2 in., real wood, hand checkering, mirror-like barrel interiors, extractors, vent. shooting pad, ornate top lever stainless steel etchings, looks like '70's vintage, little wear, current owner had it 15 yrs. and never fired. $450 --Problem: I don't like buying something I don't know. Neither of us can figure out manf., let alone understand if reputable. Possible off-label production run?

December 15, 2001, 11:56 PM	#2
sheaman Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: San Jose Posts: 41	Eibar?? Cant go wrong. Could have been made by any number of firms inn that region. Sounds llike a go.

December 19, 2001, 11:53 PM	#6
wine9er Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: ca. Posts: 44	Spanish .20ga. sxs update encouraged by your comments and suggestions I did the recommended research. Hopefully, it may yield some clues: Top side, right barrel--"Cig-eibar-spain"..."C" could also be an "E" Top side, left barrel--"20 gauge magnum" Foream under markings--"8620", icon that looks like crossed rifles or cannon barrels (very rough markings"). Underside,left barrel--left section--gauge 14.6/15.8 & "K's" in small circle. right section--"F.S. No. 8620"/icon that has "20-76" in unclosed oblong circle/"F.S." (?) in small circle Underside, right barrel-- left section--gauge 15.4/15.8 & "1130" & "Gmos"marked alongside right section--first icon"X" encircled with knighthead or birdhead on top; 2nd icon is crossed rifles or cannon barrels; 3rd icon is"BP" along with small oblong circle enclosed in larger circle. "850kgs" other: sxs w/etching of two pheasants/side. Effort was worth it as shotgun will be used vs. hung. and I'm worried about poorly-tempered parts. Thanks everyone,Hopefully this process will be instructive for those that follow! __________________ "An education is acquired, a man is self made"

December 23, 2001, 02:46 AM	#8
wine9er Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: ca. Posts: 44	Its not you, its me! Thanks to everyone for their imput. Today we went to a gunshow and bought a .20 870 for less than $300. Loved flirting w/that Spanish beauty but after listening to the neighbors went and took the nice girl to the prom.

December 24, 2001, 10:05 PM	#13
wine9er Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: ca. Posts: 44	Mike S Curious to the resemblence to the SxS that I stumbled over (see details in my original post). What are the main differences that you noted? What is asking price? __________________ "An education is acquired, a man is self made"

December 16, 2001, 12:08 AM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	I'd spend some time researchin it before spendin that kind of bucks on an unknown. Did a quick run through Shooters Bible and Gun Digest of that general era and didn't find it cataloged. Not in Fjestad either. Sam

December 16, 2001, 12:09 AM	#4
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Eibar is a place in Northern Spain and the home of Spanish gunmaking. There is no company named Eibar but from time to time you will see guns so marked. It is presumed these are guns made by various gun workers possibly associated with the Spanish trade. I'm assuming this is a side by side. Look at the various markings on the action flats and the barrels. These are proof marks, date marks and possibly a maker's mark. Take a look and post a description of all of the marks. I might be able to help with a couple of the reference books I have.

December 16, 2001, 01:34 PM	#5
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Spanish guns vary greatly in quality. Some are junk, others as good as anything ever made. Copy all the markings and post in Harley's forum here and the Shooting Sportsman BB, where there's lots of double fans. Most of the Spanish guns I see are middle quality guns, and function well with light loads. This wouldn't be a good choice for heavier stuff, steel or slugs. For birds, yes...

December 20, 2001, 10:32 AM	#7
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Ah, the mysteries of Spanish Guns. Hard to know without seeing the gun but here's what I can tell you: The "C(E?)ig-eibar-spain" marking doesn't match up with any of the better known manufacturers. It could however by an importers mark. There was an importer in Florida who used a marking close to this. 8620 is likely the serial number. The icon that looks like crossed rifles or cannon barrels is a provisional proof. The 15.8 marking is the bore size. The 14.6 and 15.4 are choke indications. The gun sounds like it is very tightly choked -- at least modified and full. "20-76" is the gauge and chamber length in metric which translates to 3". "1130" & "Gmos" is the barrel weight. The 3 icons you mentioned are all proof marks. "850kgs" is the proof pressure. This will handle all modern loads. Based on these proofs, this is a modern made gun probably sometime in the last 20 years. I suspect your friend bought it new. "F.S." Although I am not sure, I suspect this stands for Felix Sarasqueta. Sarasqueta is a pretty common gunmaking name in Spain with Victor Sarasqueta being the best known. Victor Sarasqueta went under in the early 80s but was the largest gunmaker in Spain for many decades. Felix, a relative of some sort, made lower-priced, utility grade guns attempting to trade on the name association. These guns are solid performers on par with the Laurona and Zabala boxlocks. The Spaniards often made guns under different labels but each of them have undergone the Spanish proof testing so I wouldn't worry about the safety of the gun. The belief that Spanish steel is poorly tempered dates back to the 50's and 60's and they have certainly worked to improve their products since then. The only caution I would have is whether it is a single or double trigger gun. Spanish single triggers do not have the best reputation particularly the selective triggers. With sxs prices going higher and higher each year, the price for the gun doesn't sound too bad but it's no steal. It's hard to see how you could get in to a sxs for less. Paul PS. You might want to look again for a single letter or letter and single number combination. This is the date mark. If you find one, post it and I might be able to tell you when this gun was made.

December 23, 2001, 07:00 AM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	You're welcome. Now,buy ammo, use up, repeat.....

December 23, 2001, 08:47 AM	#10
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Sounds like a marriage made in heaven. Good choice. I've never owned an 870 in 20 gauge but I did wring one out on the skeet range a few weeks ago. I told the owner that if he ever considered selling it.... This is why I often hate trying other people's guns.

December 24, 2001, 07:05 PM	#11
MikeS Member Join Date: April 17, 2000 Location: San Diego, CA USA Posts: 57	PJR, I just came into possession of a Spanish made (imported by Armsport) 10ga SxS. It's a brute with many of the same markings described by wine9er. There is a stamp on the bottom on each barrel which may indicate that the gun was made in 10-89. It has double triggers and is marked for F&F chokes. My question is this: With the proof pressure listed at 1000, do you feel that the barrels can safely handle modern 3.5" loads, including the use of buckshot? I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks. Mike

December 24, 2001, 09:46 PM	#12
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Mike: I can't say whether the gun is safe without seeing it and even then I might not be be absolutely sure. Armsport was an importer and distibutor. The Armsport guns as I recall were made by Hermanos Zabala. Look for a ZH marking on the action. The 10-89 marking is not a date of manufacturer but the gauge and chamber length in millimeters. 89mm is 3.5" and so your gun was proofed for 10 gauge 3.5" shells at 1000 kgs. If it were mine, I would give it a try in the absence of pitting, dents or other obvious signs of barrel abuse. But again I only know what the gun was proofed for and can't say it is safe without seeing it myself. Paul

December 25, 2001, 02:58 AM	#14
MikeS Member Join Date: April 17, 2000 Location: San Diego, CA USA Posts: 57	Paul I appreciate your response especially on a Christmas Eve and I didn't mean to put you in an awkward spot regarding gun quality and safety. Ultimately, that has to be my determination and responsibility. Thanks for clarifying the significance of the 10-89 and you were right, there is a ZH marking on the action. The barrels, both inside and out, have mirrored finishes, so it looks like it's a go to try the 3.5" shells. I hope it works because I love the size of this piece of artillery. Thanks again. Wine9er, The resemblence (as you have described very well) is in the three icons which apparently represent provisional proofs. The differences are that one barrel is marked Armsport (Miami) while the other says 10ga, 3.5". the Gmos on mine is 2720 vs. the 1130 on yours. This shotgun is an 11 pounder. I took a chance and bought the Spanish 10ga on AuctionArms for $320. I have a couple of shotguns, all new: An Ithaca & Benelli Nova Pump and a Beretta 1201 auto. This latest addition is just a whim. I wanted something I could play with, modify, without spending a lot of money. I'm taking a chance that it will work and not break down. Best holiday wishes, Mike

December 26, 2001, 08:42 PM	#15
PJR Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Posts: 1,127	Mike: Thanks for your comments. I'm a little cautious about saying any gun is safe or not. That's up to the user as you noted. Enjoy your Zabala 10. Sounds like a great gun for geese. Incidentally, Weatherby is having their new line of sxs guns made by Zabala. That sounds like a pretty good endorsement to me. Paul

September 18, 2004, 05:02 PM	#16
Pags523 Junior Member Join Date: September 17, 2004 Posts: 5	Help needed with a Sarasqueta 20 ga. O/U I wish to thank you for your help. I have the following additional information on the O/U can anyone decipher these: Upper Barrel-Right Side L. MORENO-MIAMI FLA 1100 Kp/cm2 Upper Barrel-Left Side FELIX SARASKETA y CIA EIBAR-SPAIN -FA-D 15,8 Lower Barrel-Right Side 1100 Kp/cm2 Lower Barrel-Left Side -FA-D ** 14009 ''' US 15,8 Water Table Marks L 1931 F.S.C. 20-76 CAI ST.A. VT. I know that the F.S.C. is the Felix Sarasketa proof mark, that the importer was L.Moreno in FL. And that 20-76 means it?s a 20 ga., with a 3" or 76mm chamber. Also the 1100 Kp/cm2 is the maximum pressure for the barrels. Thanks to other members I know that the barrels are IM and IC. Once again thanks in advance for you help. Nick

September 18, 2004, 08:57 PM	#17
gordo b. Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2002 Location: Peoples republik of Calif. Posts: 961	Here's the deal on the 10 ga: You can't shoot steel in it, means no migratory game birds (ducks geese) . Sooooo why don't you do like I did and have it professionally cut to 20" (18" looks weird , too short) and the barrel rib gap filled with lead and dress off and a new BIG bead put on. Then you have the ultimate scattergun which holds 18 OO buck per (thats TWO standard 12 guage worth!!!!!) shot!! Mine never ceases to draw attention at cowboy shoots

September 23, 2004, 02:10 PM	#18
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	I had a Zabala 12 in the early 70s, probably a 60s manufacture. Very nice figured wood with beavertail fore-end, grayed receiver with engraving; solid, well finished and very easy to hit with. Very foolishly traded it in for a new gun later on.