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Old December 21, 2008, 02:47 AM   #1
Edro20
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.30-06 reloading question.

I am currently developing (this is an ongoing thing) a load for the Weatherby Vanguard in .30-06. I am hand loading the Barnes 168 gn. TSX BT. What I am wondering is this:

As I understand it the Barnes "like" a fairly large jump to the lands. I allow for .050". I have read that cartridge run out is a big deal and I can only imagine that if the run out is out of spec then that large jump to the lands is only going to multiply any innaccuracy that results. My current best load is:

56 Grains of H-4350
168 grain Barnes TSX BT
Federal LR .210 Primers
3.263 COAL

I have shot .5 grain incremental tests from min to max with H-4350. I did get a 3 shot group at .504, but the action is not bedded and the darned thing doesn't seem to perform the same with loads from week to week. Is it a good idea (HEHE I think I know...) to tweak the OAL versus the load? I know that a hot barrel will string upwards in a bad way on my rifle. I wonder if I should sell it and get a Rem 700 with a bull barrel. Thoughts??
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Old December 21, 2008, 03:55 AM   #2
T. O'Heir
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Hi. Barnes bullets are an entity unto themselves due to their solid copper construction. However, a Vanguard is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle. Half inch groups are great, if they're consistent. Consistency is more important than group size in a hunting rifle. Mucking about with the OAL won't help if the groups aren't consistent.
Stringing, as the barrel heats, suggests the bedding isn't right. Likely a high spot in the barrel channel. If you're not getting consistent group sizes, bed the rifle and do a trigger job. Floating the barrel may or may not make any difference. The only way to find out is to try it. Sand the barrel channel until a piece of paper will go freely to the chamber area of a bedded rifle. Seal the wood with any wood sealer. Make sure all the screws are tight and go shoot. If floating doesn't help, put a pressure point back in with a bit of bedding material about 1.5" aft of the end of the forestock. Not al rifles like a floated barrel.
Barnes suggests an OAL of 3.218" for their 168 grain TSXBT too. That won't matter if the rifle is moving in the stock.
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Old December 21, 2008, 05:07 AM   #3
handlerer
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I own and reload for a Vanguard in 300WBY, and get a fairly consistent .8"group. I consider this excellent hunting accuracy. If you wanted a target rifle you should have bought one. IMO, it would more practical and economical to purchase an after market barrel, in a heavier contour. You can price them on the websites of Accuracy Systems, or Matchgrade Machines. These companies offer match grade barrels from Shilen, Douglas, Krieger and others I'm not familier with. You could have done much worse than a Vanguard, again IMO. I have owned and reloaded for a model 700, 7Mag. It was fairly accurate, but not quite as accurate as my Vanguard. I sold the Remington years ago, and while I was satisfied with it, there are many members of this forum who have no good words for Remington. It seems that the quality of their product has deteriorated considerably in recent years. This is a shame because I was a fan of Remington. I have always preferred their cartridge innovations, their cartridges have been IMO more reloader friendly, than Winchester cartridges, Rem has traditionally sacrificed a few grains of powder capacity to provide a longer case neck, which provides a more concentric bullet, barrel throat alignment, improving accuracy, especially with the heavier bullets. A few examples are 244 Rem vs 243 Win, the RSAUM's vs WSM's. I would be very pleased with .5" groups in any hunting rifle. If I were to look into buying a target grade rifle I would investigate the Tubbs.
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Old December 21, 2008, 05:50 AM   #4
darkgael
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groups

IIRC, Weatherby guarantees 1.5" three shot groups from a cold barrel. What is your average group size? If you are getting better than that be happy.
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Old December 21, 2008, 09:44 AM   #5
hilblly
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Edro

I shoot the Barnes TSX in my 270 Win.
I started with RL22 but also have the barrel heat problem. My first shot would be an inch low then the string would tighten up. I switched to RL19 and the cold barrel flier problem went away. I seat .060 off.
In my caliber Barnes seats .090 off.
Keep tweaking with powder and seating depth.
If runout is a problem you could try neck turning
If your not already, try neck sizing.
As stated in another reply.
Your gun may only be capable of MOA groups.
Good Luck
TSX is a GREAT hunting bullet.
Mike
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Old December 21, 2008, 11:11 AM   #6
Buzzard Bait
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try othe bullets

It would seem like before I aborted the rifle or even tried changing the bedding I would try other bullets, the Barnes bullets may be a little touchy and group well in some rifles and not others. Try a Sierra game king or a Nosler bullet you might get what your after that way. Because it seems like it is close to where you want it to be any way.

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Old December 21, 2008, 11:25 AM   #7
Art Eatman
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Off the cuff, if I were getting inconsistent groups I'd check the forearm for clearance between the stock and the barrel. My preference is to free-float the barrel and then use a shim at the forearm tip. I fold a 3/4" strip of wax paper back and forth until it takes about a five-pound pull to separate the barrel and forearm enough to insert the shim. A few shots to heat the wax and it sticks in place.

The idea is that the shim acts as a damper, enhancing consistency in the barrel's vibrations from shot to shot. Sorta like a shock absorber on a car, since a barrel acts like a spring when a shot is fired. Regardless, I've tightened up a bunch of rifles this way. It's pretty much the same deal as Browning's B.O.S.S.--but cheaper. Probably get the same effect from these nylon insert dealies that some rifles have; just adjust such that the screw barely touches the barrel.

And, of course, there's all the usual BS about checking all screws for proper tightness and suchlike...

In the FWIW department, I've always had great success with Sierra's bullets. Sub-MOA groups and a fair number of dead deer. I'm partial to the 150-grain SPBT, although it comes apart at close range when maxxed out from a 26" Mark V Wby; at normal ranges it works great. About the same trajectory at 500 yards as the 180-grain SPBT...
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Old December 21, 2008, 04:30 PM   #8
Jimro
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Art,

I always explain a pressure bedded barrel as "tuning" the same way a musicians fingers change the pitch of a guitar string. The pressure at the tip causes the barrel vibrations to go to a higher frequency for the same energy imparted. Just like low frequency (bass) strings on a guitar have larger oscillations than the high frequency (treble) strings. The smaller the oscillation the less difference in muzzle placement as the bullet exits, therefore tighter groups.

Anyways, if nothing else it gives another way to explain why pressure bedding works.

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Old December 21, 2008, 08:18 PM   #9
itgoesboom
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I can relay my experience with my Vanguard in .30-06.

Test target from Weatherby with 150gr rounds showed 1.25" for a 3-shot group. Nothing spectacular.

Switched over to Federal's 180gr. Gameking load, and I was getting an average of about 1" for 3-shot groups. That was the good news, the bad news was similar to what you have seen, it wasn't consistant from day-to-day. I made that worse by then shooting off a bipod. Groups stayed the same, but shot about 3" high @ 100 yards.

I decided that wasn't going to work for me in the end, so I did a few things, and it didn't cost me much.

First, I replaced the stock. The factory stock isn't very stiff, and the pressure point at the end made the POI shift when I shot off a bipod vs. shooting off a bag.

In my case, I replaced it with a boyd's laminate, although if I was to do it over again, I would do something different.

I floated the barrel, and bedded the action (my first time doing that) as well.

I then worked up a few handloads. I tried 165gr, 175gr and 180gr loads, using H4350, H4895 and IMR 4064. I had good results with multiple combinations, but the best results were the 175gr SMK with 57gr. of H4350, winchester cases, and WLR primers, followed by 180gr Partitions with everything else the same. Both shoot to the same POI, with the Partitions being only slightly less accurate (avg. of .75" vs. .5" for 3-shot groups).

I have been tempted to try the TSX bullets, but have heard from some saying they are finicky at times.

With this setup, I get .5" 3-shot groups with my practice ammo, and .75" with a proven hunting load, that shoots to the same POI, and I am not having significant POI shifts when the weather changes (I have tested it from 20f to 90f).

So, basically, before you give up hope, try a different bullet (try something >175gr), and restock and bed the action.
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