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Old January 16, 2013, 02:02 PM   #76
musher
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I have no criminal record so it will not affect me at all. I'm assuming some people here must have one as they are so against being screened.
One, most assuredly does not imply the other.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:08 PM   #77
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The only way they can ensure compliance is if all the guns you own are registered even if registration is given a different name.
^that
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:10 PM   #78
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Think about the practical side of private sale background checks.

Let’s say I have a .22 rifle to sale which obviously is used. I find a co-worker who wishes to buy the gun and we agree on a price of $175. We trot down to the local gun shop to have the background check run and they charge us $40 for the service. Who pays this?

I know if sounds simply enough, but the devil is always in the details and really how many criminals are going to do this anyway.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:11 PM   #79
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I'll take required background checks over lower capacity magazines everyday. I have no criminal record so it will not affect me at all. I'm assuming some people here must have one as they are so against being screened. Maybe they shouldn't own guns anyway.
Or they just don't willingly submit to government intrusions into their private lives. Not to mention the practical considerations of background checks for everyone that no one in favor of them ever seems to address or account for.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:23 PM   #80
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Apom, my job requires background checks; my previous job, as a Navy officer, required background checks. I have held security clearances suffiicient to gain access to the CIA building, had work required it.

I have had years of military firearms quals; concealed carry licenses in three states; I have attended training courses run by top tier instructors.

The government has entrusted me with thousands of lives and billions in equipment (former Ship's Weapons Coordinator, Force Over The Horizon Track Coordinator, and Tactical Action Officer aboard a NIMITZ class carrier).

I hold a current Airline Transport Pilot certificate.

I do not fear background checks (or training requirements) because I worry about passing them - I am kind of a poster boy for people who should easily meet background and training requirements in any jurisdiction in the US.

I fear background checks and training requirements because they allow a tightening of the noose on the Second Amendment; I fear background checks and training requirements because they allow a way for the political equivalent of the country club set to keep "those people" from becoming members of the right to bear arms club; I fear background checks and training requirements because they turn a right into a privilege.

Instead of positing that the only people who fear background checks are those with criminal histories, I would posit that the only people who do not fear background checks are the ones who have not thought it through.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:26 PM   #81
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+1 to MLEAK.

I also am in the same boat through Army service and now Contractor work to include work in war zones.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:51 PM   #82
Evan Thomas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
I fear background checks and training requirements because they allow a tightening of the noose on the Second Amendment; I fear background checks and training requirements because they allow a way for the political equivalent of the country club set to keep "those people" from becoming members of the right to bear arms club; I fear background checks and training requirements because they turn a right into a privilege.

Instead of positing that the only people who fear background checks are those with criminal histories, I would posit that the only people who do not fear background checks are the ones who have not thought it through.
Exactly.

Saying that "The innocent have nothing to fear" leads to a very slippery slope.

I too have no problem passing the NICS background check, but I do resent it, even though I see the point of trying to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, etc. But the NCIS already doesn't do much good there: a criminal who really wants a gun can get one easily enough. The only thing that makes the current system tolerable for me is that the FBI is required to destroy identifying information after 24 hours, and all records after 90 days.

I'm not that troubled by the retention requirement for 4473s by FFLs, but for the government to have a permanent database including records of what guns I own -- No, thank you.

And the current requirements for destruction of records are contained in the regulations regarding the implementation of the GCA, so presumably could be changed without going through Congress. THAT bothers me...
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:58 PM   #83
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Please tell me if you disagree, but my opinion is that, in their secret meetings, the pols pushing for gun control picked a bunch of stuff Obama could do by EO, a bunch of stuff that might pass in Congress and several things that probably won't, all to demonstrate their concern for victims of such shootings ... the next time it happens, everything they REALLY want, like full registration, no semi-auto weapons period, ammo restrictions, etc, will be back on the table and that much harder to fight. Imagine the scene in Congress a few weeks from now when they take up Feinstein's travesty, for instance ... but picture another Newtown or Aurora between now and then ... even Republicans would have a hard time saying no to a new AWB and whatever else BO dreams up ... IMHO the next four years will be a nightmare and very possibly a disaster for those of us who believe in the 2A and love guns, for whatever purpose ... Hope I'm wrong ...
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:01 PM   #84
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I'll take required background checks over lower capacity magazines everyday. I have no criminal record so it will not affect me at all. I'm assuming some people here must have one as they are so against being screened. Maybe they shouldn't own guns anyway.
Giving the Government the power to aprove the sale of your personal property WILL affect you! Once it has been established that the Federal Government has the power to decide if you can sell your guns, and to whom you can sell them too, it will expand that power to other personal property.

Approval of private sales of firearms is more than just a public safety issue, it is an issue of freedom and civil rights.

I don't want the government regulating the disposal of my personal property, be it my motorcycle or my guns.
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:04 PM   #85
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I just finished reading the propasal. Nothing I didn't expect to see.
All guns sales (private sales) to be background checked? How are you going to enforce that? The actual lanquage is "encourage", not enforce so that one doesn't mean anything.
Calls for a ban on "assualt rifle" manufacture. No call for regisration or buy backs. Nothing to prohibite sales of weapons already on the market. The same with high cap mags. Even this would have to get through congress first. We will have to wait and see.
Glad I'm not in the mental health industry. I'll bet that's going to be a mess figuring out were privacy ends and public safety begins.
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:13 PM   #86
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The hidden danger to gun owners behind Obama's executive orders

Here's my latest Detroit Gun Right Examiner column on today's gun control press conference where he decided to do it "for the children."

The hidden danger to gun owners behind Obama's executive orders

"Although the big news from President Obama’s press conference today is his call for more gun control legislation, the real immediate threat to American’s 2nd Amendment rights may lay in the executive orders he signed immediately afterwards.

In his carefully staged press conference the president surrounded himself with children he said wrote him letters about gun violence while he outlined his “wish list” for gun control legislation."
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:14 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
I fear background checks and training requirements because they allow a tightening of the noose on the Second Amendment; I fear background checks and training requirements because they allow a way for the political equivalent of the country club set to keep "those people" from becoming members of the right to bear arms club; I fear background checks and training requirements because they turn a right into a privilege.

Instead of positing that the only people who fear background checks are those with criminal histories, I would posit that the only people who do not fear background checks are the ones who have not thought it through.
I'm with MLeake on this and in the same boat (pun indented for MLeake) with a very high level clearance and very in-depth background checks. My only additional concern is that there are several databases used for some positions. My fear is that what databases are they going to use for background checks and to what level are they going to deny? You're hearing medical records, including reports from doctors. What about nurses, social workers, teachers, etc...the door will be opened and the screening criteria will be manipulated for whoever is in power.

It used to always be "buyers beware"; now you're seeing a shift to seller beware. Would I knowingly sell firearms to an evil-intentioned individual with a criminal record? Absolutely not! But I also doubt even a local PD background check would catch disturbing PTSD or other mental health issues hidden in their medical records.

I think the way to address private sales is to have a system in place in local PD's allowing the individual to pay a very small, nominal fee (no more than $5.00) to run a background check on themselves and present the "clean bill of health" to the seller with a date in the past 30 days or so. No records need to be kept, no addresses needed (if done in person) and the seller would have peace of mind. No need to keep the background check or at least make them only good for 60-90 days before needing another one. Plenty of LE officers will run a quick check in their database...that should be sufficient, but again, you're not linking to some massive medical database. Can't answer that one...

As MLeake mentioned, once the process becomes overly cumbersome, attrition will occur due to inconvenience. That and many sales will go underground or an explosion of a black-market...

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Old January 16, 2013, 03:25 PM   #88
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This is only gonna cause some gun owners on the fringe to become very reclusive .......
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:26 PM   #89
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I think it likely that Congress will use the very recent New York state law (yesterday) as a reason to hold back getting serious about making a new law.

This is because the NY state law exists. It is lying there, just calling for the full-meal-deal through the court system. And that means Congress can wait. "Wanting to see what the latest case law will say....." That sort of thing.

I'm actually feeling relieved at what I read in Post #30. The Prez has made his political statement, Joe Bite-em can return to his real job, and we gun owners don't seem badly hurt.

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Old January 16, 2013, 03:34 PM   #90
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I don't have any real problem with any of the executive orders, and think some of them will actually help keep schools safer. Particularly the one providing incentives for the hiring of resource officers (LEO's). I don't see any of it as a "power grab" by the president. I also don't see any problem with making a NICS check available to private parties if performed by an FFL or LEO agency, no transfer information is recorded, and the process is voluntary and provided for a small fee (under $5).

There are plenty of people out there who would like to know that the person they are selling a gun to in a private sale is not a criminal.

But universal background checks mandated by the Fed? Unacceptable.
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:37 PM   #91
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Background checks literately registers every firearm you purchase to you. This will allow a federal registry of all guns and owners. Doesn't take long to go confiscate them when you know where they are.
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:40 PM   #92
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I just wrote my Congressional representatives stating that I do not support the confirmation of a full time director for the BATFE until that bunch of lying, thieving, murdering thugs answers for Fast and Furious.

Didn't call them that of course.

In reading through these, it appears to me that the only EO that would have helped at Sandy Hook is the better preperation on behalf of First Responders and Law Enforcements for mass shooters.
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:47 PM   #93
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quote:
Assault weapons??? Don't we already have restrictions and limitations on select fire weapons?

THANK YOU!!!!
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:50 PM   #94
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Background checks literately registers every firearm you purchase to you.
No they don't. The information called into NICS does not include any description of the firearm other than type (handgun/long gun/other). Furthermore, the records are destroyed within 24 hours of a completed check.
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:58 PM   #95
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Tom

Is the FFL not required to keep all records of sales and transfers? If so there is a paper trail all the way from the seller to the buyer.
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:01 PM   #96
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So the information on page 3, section D (maker, serial number, etc.) of the 4473 isn't part of what's sent to the Feds during the background check?

I didn't know that. It's... somewhat... reassuring.
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:05 PM   #97
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The "publish a letter to FFLs on how to run background checks for private sales" has been done.

A link to this letter hit my inbox this afternoon.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...ndividuals.pdf

Nothing most people didn't know, but it puts everything in one spot. It does encourage FFLs to do transfers (I'm not sure why some don't... it would make money for them, especially for people who just walk in off the street; they can charge $50 or so for just a few minutes of work) and clarifies a few regulations.
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:08 PM   #98
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Is the FFL not required to keep all records of sales and transfers? If so there is a paper trail all the way from the seller to the buyer.
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They are, but that does not make a registry. Perhaps you should heed your own signature line...Just because your opinion is that it's a registry does not in fact make it a registry. Paper trail =/= registry.
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:10 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by apom
I'll take required background checks over lower capacity magazines everyday. I have no criminal record so it will not affect me at all. I'm assuming some people here must have one as they are so against being screened. Maybe they shouldn't own guns anyway.
You should make sure you know what is being proposed before you agree to it.

The administration is not proposing background checks only for sales of guns, but for 'transfers' of guns - including temporary transfers of possession. This is the same type of provision that is in H.R.21 ("temporary transfer of possession without transfer of title").

Quote:
From the President's Gun Violence Plan:

Congress should pass legislation that goes beyond just closing the “gun show loophole” to require background checks for all firearm sales, with limited, common-sense exceptions for cases like certain transfers between family members and temporary transfers for hunting and sporting purposes.
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:10 PM   #100
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Is the FFL not required to keep all records of sales and transfers? If so there is a paper trail all the way from the seller to the buyer.
There is, but it would be very difficult in most cases to collate into a database. Furthermore, federal law prohibits the ATF from doing so.

Quote:
A link to this letter hit my inbox this afternoon.
I just got it, too. You're right. It suggests that FFL's encourage folks to go through them rather than transferring the guns between individuals.

And that's it.
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