Lee Factory crimp die

[Slamfire]

I must be reading a different thread than you. From what I have read the people that have used a FCD are showing pictures to prove they had better results. They didn't say everybody had to use it they are just showing it worked for them. The people that haven't used a FCD and don't have pictures to prove it didn't work are going out of their way to say it doesn't work and nobody needs to use it, probably just because it's Lee.

As I said earlier, I loaded ammunition and it swaged the bullets in the middle. I pulled all those 308 bullets due to powder deterioration and reloaded them. I shot those out to 300 yards, mostly 200 yards, can't say I shot much at 300 yards, and I never shot them at long range. My scores out to 200 yards, I cannot say my scores were better or worse, but now I am shooting much better than what I used to.

No one has given a good reason why swaged bullets shoot better than non swaged bullets. These crimp dies squeeze the bullet in the middle and deform the core. When the jacket is permanently deformed, such as the ones in my picture, it is obvious that the jacket is damaged and the core is deformed. I have no doubt that even on jackets that show no marks, the soft lead core is deformed.

Deforming the core will shift the center of balance and the center of gravity. This is not conducive to accuracy in a rotating projectile.

While well meaning, the tests posted here are not conclusive. These groups are at close range and they are limited in round count. And, I don’t know the qualification of the shooters. The group with the Mini 30 is impressive, for a Mini 30. But mini 30's are not the standard for accuracy at any match I have ever shot.

My F class champion bud, last I saw him, he was testing ammunition at 200 yards, the range limit, and his wild cat was giving him 1 fps velocity variations and everything was in one hole at 200 yards. When he says something works, I believe him. I would like to see some 20 or 30 round groups, fired further. The best would be 20 shot scores at 600 or 1000 yards.

When the National Champs who do shoot scores at 600 and 1000 yards start telling me how much Lee Factory Crimp dies improve their scores, then I will believe it.

Until then, I am still waiting to hear how deforming bullets with a crimp die improves accuracy.

[steve4102]

From Lee Precision.

A firm crimp improves accuracy because pressure must build to a higher level before the bullet begins to move. This higher start pressure insures a more uniform pressure curve and less velocity variation.

[C7AR15]

Thanks for all the input on the Lee FCD.

I like this forum- everybody remains civil and as Mark Twain said:
"We are not fighting - this is a lively discussion among Gentlemen"

I guess the only way to check this Die out is to Compare the ammo it produces with non- crimped ammo. Ahh the joys of reloading.

PS: remember to always blame the Ammo or the gun or the trigger or the scope or the mounts or the brass or the bullets or the powder lot
or your cleaning solvent or the wind or gravity or the Moon or the humdity or the Russians or the guy talking next to you . Blame the mosquitos, bad light , blame the air density in winter , tell the Black powder shooter next to you to get lost, yell at your dog.......
But never ever question your own ability!!!!

Thanks JD

[CrustyFN]

No one has given a good reason why swaged bullets shoot better than non swaged bullets. These crimp dies squeeze the bullet in the middle and deform the core. When the jacket is permanently deformed, such as the ones in my picture, it is obvious that the jacket is damaged and the core is deformed.

Yes but your die was not adjusted right. If it was adjusted for a light crimp the bullets would not have looked like that. The bullets don't get swaged when the die is adjusted right, or at least mine don't.

[Slamfire]

Yes but your die was not adjusted right. If it was adjusted for a light crimp the bullets would not have looked like that. The bullets don't get swaged when the die is adjusted right, or at least mine don't.

Perhaps, but I thought I had set my dies per the instructions and yet I got bullets which were swaged in the middle. I do not know how to determine if I have excessive crimping without pulling bullets after they are crimped. And if they are crimped too much, I have ruined a good match bullet.

Even though I have not sectioned one of these crimped bullets I am of the opinion that it is possible to deform the core, because it is soft lead, but not leave a mark on the copper jacket. Copper is a little stiffer than lead and should have more springback. Heavy crimping, such as was done on the 6.5 SMK's, that exceeded the yeild of the jacket have most certainly deformed the bullet. But you will hardly see a crimp mark on the case neck.

Look, my case necks provide all the tension I need on my bullets. Match bullets cost 27 cents or more apiece, I don't see a good reason why I want to risk ruining a box of match bullets with a crimp die, and I am shooting HM scores at 600 yards without crimped bullets.

Work on position, trigger pull, sight alignment, and wind reading will improve scores more than crimp dies.

And God knows, I need more work on my position, trigger pull, sight alignment, and I don't know if I will ever figure out the wind.

[dacaur]

I use a FCD on my .308 reloadings, and use a pretty heavy crimp (at least I thought I did, when I pull bullets, they dont look like the ones in the previous pics), yet "somehow" I still get the occasional <.5 MOA group at 100 and 200 yards when im having an "on" day, and rarly get a group over 1MOA unless im having a bad day... I dont belive I would be getting that kind of accuracy out of a savage edge if the FCD was hurting my accuracy.... No i havent tried it without the FCD, but with the accuracy im getting I dont see a reason to... Better safe on the crimp than sorry IMO...

The fact remains, no one has posted that the FCD gave them worse accuracy, and many have posted that it improves it, soo........ the conclusions arent hard to draw....

In any case whats the difference between the factory crimp die squeezing the bullet and the barrel grooves squeezing it? both are comming at it from all directions evenly, so even with a heavy crimp, if it deformed the core, it wold deform it evenly meaning there would be no detrimental effect on accuracy...

[dunerjeff]

Slamfire once you get the wind figured out ,you should start working on figuring out mirage shift,fun times.

[ljnowell]

I love snobbery. Some people hate lee equipment because they feel they cant be good if they dont cost a fortune. Simple fact is that some people like one thing while others like another, but there always has to be that guy that knows everything and cant wait to tell you how crappy your stuff is.

Anytime the FCD is mentioned you will get tons of people that dont know how to use it right, or have never used one, that love to tell people how crappy it is.

All of my dies but one are Lee. I have never had to touch one of the lee dies except to set it up. The one die that I own that isnt a lee is a Redding competition seating die in 45 colt. That die will cut lead bullets every single time until I took it apart and polished it. Never had to do that with a Lee die. I guess I should jump into the forums everytime Redding dies are mentioned and tell everyone what junk they are, right?

[Edward429451]

I use the FCD in 7.62 and 44 Cal. I did not like the sizing ring in the 44 FCD, so I used a punch and tapped it out of there. I have already chosen my diameter and don't want want any generic sizing, just a crimp die. I do like the FCD ability to crimp into lead boolits seemingly better than a roll crimp. It does look good.

I do like a medium crimp on rifle rounds for durability's sake. Anything semi-auto because of the round slam banging around. It obviously doesn't hurt accuracy and may even help so pretty much everything gets at least a light crimp.

[CrustyFN]

Perhaps, but I thought I had set my dies per the instructions and yet I got bullets which were swaged in the middle. I do not know how to determine if I have excessive crimping without pulling bullets after they are crimped. And if they are crimped too much, I have ruined a good match bullet.

I have found Lee doesn't normally have good instructions. I don't remember reading the instructions for the rifle FCD. I went the opposite from you. I ran a loaded round all the way up and then screwed the die down until I felt resistance. Then I would lower the round and go 1/8 turn. I kept doing this until I had the desired crimp which is very little.

And God knows, I need more work on my position, trigger pull, sight alignment, and I don't know if I will ever figure out the wind.

I can relate to that. I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to accuracy.

[wncchester]

"Afetr looking at that equipment, I just can't bring myself to throw my money away on that stuff."

So, you speak against 'that equipment' from the authority of total personal ignorance and challenge the knowledge of those who do have experience with it? Goodness, what 'wisdom'! People who can't deal with minor issues on mechanical equipment probably aren't good candidates for reloading anyway.

Crimping is not magic in either direction and it would be foolish to say different. A crimp is a side issue to reloading but, if a crimp helps, Lee's FCDs are the best tools available for most situations. Reloading really ain't a "paint by numbers' thing, it's all results oriented stuff. That means we have to learn for ourselves. on our tools, with our rigs and for our loads to obtain the end results we seek. Experiment; if your load benefits from it, keep it; if not, don't bother.

Lee's instructions are like any other's instructions; they get total noobs started. Virtually everything about reloading is adjustable to some degree and no one can tell us to 'turn knob 'A' to the 3:32 position and then put 18.8 lb. of pressure on the multi-hexicomplicator' so everything will then be perfect.

[Colorado Redneck]

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die on 22 hornets when loading 40 gr. V-max. The main reason is, when the bullet is seated to the COAL spec, the ogive is such that the case mouth is not touching the projectile. By placing a crimp on the case mouth, that snugs the brass down next to the bullet so the rounds feed smoother. Lots of folks recommend using the Lee crimp die on 22 hornet. In the bit of comparisons I have done, the accuracy difference isn't significant. Feeding? Darn right there's a difference!

.

[tahoe2]

guns 044.jpg

guns 046.jpg



The Lee instructions state a "Firm" crimp, not a deforming one. I don't shoot any kind of competition, but I have been shooting for 35+ years. so my credentials will satisfy only myself. My guns however are run of the mill hunting rifles from the 50's & 60's and a few mausers from the 30's & 40's; so if my groups go from 3" to 2" (or better) at 100 yards, or from 6" to 3" at 200, I am one happy camper! I load bullets with canelures and without, it makes no difference to me, when using the factory crimp die.

[wncchester]

"...Lee instructions state a "Firm" crimp, not a deforming one."

Roger, a massive crimp will damage anything. It won't be necessary to section one of those over crimped bullets to see if the "cores" have been damaged, they have. No such damage has an automatic effect on accurcy but it sure won't make the ammo better.

The 'problem' isn't limited to the FCD, no maker has yet figgered out how to design any reloading tool that can't possibly be misused. Nor is it possible to explain in an instruction sheet exactly how to operate anything except possibly a table lamp; most everything else has a little bit of a learning curve. (Could I fairly castigate a brand of case lube because IT 'caused' shoulder dimples before I learned how much lube to use?)

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by Colorado

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die on 22 hornets when loading 40 gr. V-max. The main reason is, when the bullet is seated to the COAL spec, the ogive is such that the case mouth is not touching the projectile.

What/Whose OAL spec are you using?

.

[Miata Mike]

I only use the Lee FCD on my AR .223 loads using 55 grain fmj with cannelure grooves.

It is not like I am doing this stuff on a single stage press. I load these on my Lee turret press, so it only feels right to have a die in the 4th hole of the turret. I use the powder die, seating die, and a light crimp of the bullet to finish it off. For those who are counting, I am not using the decapping/sizing die at this point.

I might add that I have mine set up to only squeeze until the fingers of the die touch each other as the instructions I have read somewhere say to do.

I don't have a Lee FCD for any other rifle calibers, and only have this one because it came in the deluxe set I bought for very little more money.

Does it help or hurt accuracy? Can't say for sure, but I don't think it is hurting anything. Maybe in my case it is a feel good thing? This Summer I will compare groups with and without and see if there is any change for me.

[William T. Watts]

I crimp for lever rifles only, I'm not about to crimp Nosler bullets which have no cannelure for my bolt rifles, If a projectile doesn't have a cannelure I can't think of a legitimate reason to crimp. I do own a M-1 garand, I might add I don't crimp for this rifle either.. My .02 William

[wncchester]

" I have mine set up to only squeeze until the fingers of the die touch each other as the instructions I have read somewhere say to do."

Then you are doing the maximum amount of crimp possible because you're looking at the die and not the cartridge; that's not good. You want to crimp onto the bullets so look at what's happening with your case mouths, they will probably be crimped quite well long before the fingers come together.

[Miata Mike]

Then you are doing the maximum amount of crimp possible because you're looking at the die and not the cartridge; that's not good. You want to crimp onto the bullets so look at what's happening with your case mouths, they will probably be crimped quite well long before the fingers come together.

I will take one apart one of these days and see what is happening to the bullet. What you are saying does seem to make sense. I have to say visually the case mouths don't show signs of any deforming. I will use a calipers too.

[JACK308]

Here's one I did - 45/70

[Miata Mike]

I will take one apart one of these days and see what is happening to the bullet. What you are saying does seem to make sense. I have to say visually the case mouths don't show signs of any deforming. I will use a calipers too.

I put one .223 cartridge together tonight and did some measuring.

Outside of sized case mouth measured .245 before bullet seated.

Outside of sized case mouth measured .246 after bullet seated.

Very nice feeling case mouth tension during seating

Outside of sized case mouth measured .245 after crimping seated bullet with Lee FCD.

Cannelure of bullet measured .222 before and after crimping. Only visual difference on the 55 grain FMJ bullet was light scratches from pulling the bullet with 5 stout whacks from my kinetic bullet puller. (scuffed from case mouth)

I know that one round inspected doesn't mean a whole lot, but I may be saved by careful trimming and the fact that my bullets have a built in crimp grove that I seat right up to the case mouth.

I will watch things closer now and may very well back off the crimper some just to be safe.