Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill??

[pickpocket]

Must....keep....it....alive.....

[Skyguy]

Az Qkr:

skyguy can have the last word

Thanks for the deference, Robin. The last word for this thread is:

Most of the folks and leo's have never had to use a gun with bad intentions and, considering the magnitude of this thread, it seems as though they are deeply curious about what to expect and how to respond.

Well, it's simple. Learn to respond at close quarters (30 ft or less) with sightless and laser dot shooting. Use every bit of close quarters training and every tactical advantage available.
The lasergrips are unarguably an immediate tactical advantage, especially in low light-darknes and awkward, compromised positions!

Point shooting is point shooting. Period. They all work. All variations of that tried and true tactical training are commercial endeavors and sales pitch.
Don't get caught up in the hype and the minute details of it all.

Get a Lasergrip and learn to use it. The learning curve is short and the results are absolutely astounding for the expert and novice, young and old, men and women. Old eyes work again.

There is an immediate decisive advantage with Lasergrips, especially on the self defense side of the coin. That's why they're used by cutting edge and modern thinking U.S. Military and NATO forces....and many law enforcement agencies.

So, too, say these experts below:

Ernie Langdon…..IDPA champion, Marine vet, trainer
Massad Ayoob…..World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
Ken Hackathorn…..international small arms trainer, author, consultant
Mike Dalton…..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion
Bob Taubert..…Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert
Tom Aveni…..Use of force policy expert, police officer, trainer
Marty Hayes…..FAS President, Master handgunner, police officer
Jim Cirrillo
Ted Nugent…..President of United Sportsmen of America, Author and Musician
C. R. Vanderscoff..…Beretta USA, trainer
Eugene Nielsen…..Investigative and Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
Michael De Bethencourt.....Staff instructor of the Northeastern Tactical Schools
Denny Hansen…..SWAT magazine
Rich Verdi..…trainer
Bob Scott.....Vice-Chairman of the Board, Smith & Wesson
Wes Doss…..trainer
A'Tow Avon…..American Survival Guide
Ralph Mroz.....Training Director, Police Officers Safety Association, Firearms Consultant and Author
Todd Jarrett…..World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
Leroy Thompson…..Combat Handguns
Colonel Rex Applegate......

Get on aboard the edu-train. Learn to survive a shootout!

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

Laser Training and Defense Techniques:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

[matthew temkin]

If I was to get a laser I would get a Crimson.
The first one that I ever tried was for a J frame, and quite frankly, I did not like it.
Then in a presentation by Jim Cirillo that I took two years ago we got to play with some others designed for larger handguns and I was very impressed.
Intersting list of experts... 2 of them have been my instructors and three have been point shooting students of mine at seminars.
One thing thought..I knew Applegate fairly well and he did not like laser sights for combat.
When I asked his opinion he said the dot was just something else to look for/slow you down.

[Skyguy]

in a presentation by Jim Cirillo that I took two years ago we got to play with some others Lasergrips designed for larger handguns and I was very impressed.

Cirrillo teaches his own version of point shooting, but he never closed his mind to the obvious tactical advantages of the Lasergrip. The man has intellectual honesty and it'll serve us all well.
Cirrillo is a man of the 21st century. He's not stuck in the past.

Just place the dot....and you'll hit that spot.

I knew Applegate fairly well and he did not like laser sights for combat.
When I asked his opinion he said the dot was just something else to look for/slow you down.

But Colonel Rex Applegate did also say:

"In my opinion, the S&W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
====================

Re: the crouch
I was in the taught in the Army AB to crouch as a part of close up combat point shooting.
Regardless of the critique here of the crouch….it 'is' a sound defense posture.

Then, lo and behold, I found these pics of Rex Applegate, Jelly Brice and Bill Jordan:

Colonel Rex Applegate In Point Shooting Position
(Note Knees Bent - Eyes On Target - Not Pistol)



FBI's Jelly Bryce & Bill Jordan of the Border Patrol –
"Gunman's Crouch" and "Standing Tall"



I don't believe any of these guys ever saw combat, but the pictures are interesting.
Applegate taught the crouch....so did Jelly Bryce.

Jordan makes a nice target.

[leadbutt]

Well Mr.Bryce never talked about being in the service, but if you went up against him ,you where leaving feet first, Mr.Jordan severed in the Marines,and as I have been told, no first hand knowledge,{didn't ask him} he got really good at clearing caves of the Japs.

Of course "combat" and police shootings are a little different

[Skyguy]

The question for all LEOs to ponder is:
At night or in reduced light, are you willing to go up against a bad guy 'with' a laser sight...........and you 'without' a laser sight?

• FBI statistics show that close to 70% of police shootings occur at night or in reduced light environments.

Just maybe some cop will read these testimonials and get a Lasergrip that will give him the tactical advantage that could save his life.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons

"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor

"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute

"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant

"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer

"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate

"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor

"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert

Just maybe........

[Harley Quinn]

Hi;

If you look at the way Col R. Applegate is holding the 45 Cal. in his hand.
The picture of him shooting, in uniform. No room for a Laser Grip sight.

I believe the sight is a good one (laser) but I am going to look at the one in the snout.
I said it before and I have to say it again, there is no way my mits and that laser are going to work.
The picture show's, what I am talking about.

I believe that is the reason it is on Massad Ayoob's backup and not his Primary.
Primary is an Auto and his backup is a Rev.. Different gripping technique. IMO

HQ

[Skyguy]

there is no way my mits and that laser are going to work.

Sorry to hear that you have such huge hands. How do you pick your nose?

Anyway, a good look at my "crutch" below will show the ample clearance for most fingers between the laser and the trigger. The lasergrips fit and function well for the overwhelming majority shooters. Probably 99% of all shooters.

[nscale]

Very Nice looking Weapon Skyguy. Do you know if they make a set of laser grips that fit the small frame of the Makarov? How much do these babies cost?

Just like Harley, my Son wants the one that goes in the guide pin area for his Glock 23. I can see how your finger would block the laser if you used the index finger pointing method and pulled the trigger with your middle finger.

[Az Qkr]

Like AA meetings, one needs to admit to the addiction and be willing to stop voluntarily before anyone can assist them.

Sounds like you could be on the road to recovery admitting you rely on the "crutch" to point the way.

I think it's called the first step, probably of a 12 step program. It's a start.

"I can see how your finger would block the laser if you used the index finger pointing method and pulled the trigger with your middle finger."

I know of ONE person who seriously considers using the middle finger to pull the trigger. Does anyone actually do that besides the guy who advertises that practice [ he calls it P+S ]?

Robin Brown

[nscale]

I know of ONE person who seriously considers using the middle finger to pull the trigger. Does anyone actually do that besides the guy who advertises that practice [ he calls it P+S ]?

It is the way I was taught to shoot
I use this technique often but not all of the time. Depends on what weapon I am using. The Point and Shoot stuff works fine for me.

[Az Qkr]

nscale:

Are you OKJOE on other boards, is your name John?

If not, there are now two people I know who use the middle finger to shoot.

Robin Brown

[nscale]

No I am nscale everywhere.

Hey Az Qkr I sent you an email about your QK classes in the Houston Area and don't believe I had a reply.

I am still interested in this technique. If you are interested I can talk to the BOD at the private shooting club where I am a member and see if they would be interested in having you in. Just a thought.

[Az Qkr]

nscale:

Did you send an email to [email protected]?

I didn't get it through my email account, how long ago?

I'll send you a pm here shortly

Brownie

[nscale]

Az Qkr,
Yes sir that was the address. Sent 1/24 7:37pm Subject QK instruction.
I will resend now.

Will look forwrd to hearing from you.

[Az Qkr]

nscale:

Message received, good talking with you.

Brownie

[Harley Quinn]

Like it would not be to much of a problem.
If you do notice though most people do put there trigger finger above the guard and then they would be in the way(finger over laser). But as you have said you can change your style to accommodate.

I am not one who shoots, with the finger above and using the middle finger for pulling the trigger. If you can't see the problem with the picture that I pointed out, then to bad.

I am actually not to keen about picking my nose, thanks for asking though.
But in a needed situation I could improvise.

If you look at the ads for revolvers and the Pistols on that particular grip laser they are quite different. I could use the revolver one but not the pistol.

You were commenting on LEOs and using the laser.
It is a funny world among LEO's you would think as much as they need to stay in shape to do their job, a large amount of them do not.
I believe it is the same thing, if the Department paid for the laser then they would use it, if the Dept. did not feel it was needed, they might not get it.

You are right, most shootings are very close and the laser in my opinion would be good and probably help most person's. But if the Dept. did not think so, why should they???

Funny world, policy will get you killed.

HQ

[Skyguy]

if the Department paid for the laser then they would use it, if the Dept. did not feel it was needed, they might not get it.

I've known quite a few cops that bought their own Lasergrips. They want every advantage available.
Besides, they only cost about $200. They cost less than night sights.
But, on the other hand, the Singapore police force bought 10,000 Lasergrips for their duty pistols. Not to mention the US military and NATO and many agencies across America.

most shootings are very close

The closer the threat, the more that practiced point shooting should be used. No sighting method is needed, just point shoot.

But if the threat is out past the length of a car or in low light/darkness or you're shooting from an awkward or compromised position....the laser sight is, indeed, a tactical advantage.

[matthew temkin]

I agree with Skyguy 100% on this.
I find lasers more practical for longer range shooting and would prefer to use point shooting up close.
Two years ago I was in Sweden with my dad, and we were visiting my friend who is a police firearms instructor in Malmo.
I got to play with an aimpoint sighted MP 5 which allowed me to make rapid fire head shots out to 25 meters ( Max distance at the pistol range) and then shot a laser sighted SIG 226.
I held the pistol in a two handed grip with the pistol at chest level---Weaver style----and was placing a very tight group in the head at about 12 yards.
Which cause my dad, who is a veteran of Darby's WW2 Rangers, to say.."Gee. I wish we had one of those in Italy."

[Skyguy]

I held the pistol in a two handed grip with the pistol at chest level---Weaver style----and was placing a very tight group in the head at about 12 yards.

LEO's: "When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant
-----------------------------------

For target shooting/games: Some folks use the Weaver or Chapman stance....while the Isosceles continues to grow in popularity.

For self defense-tactical: I train the instinctive Isosceles along with the instinctive Crouched (one/two handed).......also from kneeling, prone, side, back, under/over/around cover, strong-weak hand, etc.

It's so incredibly easy to hit the mark from any position/angle with a laser that only minimal maintenance practice is needed.

Below are some positions where a laser sight excels........use your imagination.

....................

[Skyguy]

Live and learn.....and live!

The traditional Weaver is a target shooting stance that has been derived from military pistol marksmanship training. But, it is sorely lacking in the basic fundamentals of training for a close quarters deadly encounter.

The records show that the majority of shootouts take place from about arm's length to about 20 ft. Not 15 to 25 yards.

Therefore, logic dictates one to train for a close encounter by close range point shooting 'and' from the instinctive crouch.
Because, if you are ever shot at, you will crouch!

Both military and leo's....when using their command advantage, superior manpower and tactics and without any shots fired....will use a classic Weaver pose, because that is what their muscle memory has been programmed to do.

BUT, when the role is reversed, and the threat ambushes the military or leo.....the body's natural reaction will take over. That reaction is an instinctive and involuntary response through the autonomic nervous system; the crouch.

In fight or flight mode, the body will instinctively react with a spontaneous reflex; an instinctive crouch.

The next instinctive reaction is to face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

If one is armed and in the Weaver, he will attempt to create distance by pushing his weapon to full arm's extension which, because of involuntary reflex, becomes an Isosceles.

Train at point shooting, use the Isosceles/crouch and get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.
.

[Harley Quinn]

First thing that comes to mind is the women has on ear muffs. But does the Child?

It could be a creation just to show the audience that it is effective with something (child, bag of groceries) in your arms etc.. Not wanting to dwell on it though.

Skyguy your comments on the Weaver are good (in my opinion).
It is a good stance (style) but if having many at your disposal, and training in numerous stances (styles). I believe you will go to the one that works at the moment and not some auto reflex. Hitting the ground rolling etc. etc.. Taking cover, the whole package...
The reason for training and more training. Similar to the fight or flight situation...Train and train more. If you are in the job of saving lives, then it should be paramont in your endeavor to be one step in front of the sythe (sickle).

Persons who train more are going to be better at the whole skill of Martial-ist types of activity. Similar to the idea of the laser, it helps the person to become more proficient. (I wounder if they use it in training some and not others, if the group that trained in it would be better?). I believe they do have that class in some of the bigger Depts.?

As to the Department, purchasing the laser (Singapore). I believe it shows how dedicated that particular City is toward the benefit for the officer. To bad, Cities in the USofA are not so inclined. I am sure their might be a few but I bet some group will try and thwart it.

Good thread.

HQ

[Skyguy]

training in numerous stances (styles). I believe you will go to the one that works at the moment and not some auto reflex. Hitting the ground rolling etc. etc.. Taking cover, the whole package...

Actually, I was talking about a sudden shootout from arm's length to about 20 ft. Statistically, that's where the majority of shootings take place and that's where the instinctive crouch in combination with point shooting must serve as your self defense. (e.g. a leo traffic stop)

If you have the time to hit the ground and roll, take cover, etc....and you plan to continue a shootout....you will thank your lucky stars if you have a laser equipped handgun.
.

[Harley Quinn]

The quick draw and shoot is something we tried to avoid. But if you got caught in a situation, well, you were told... Just start shooting.

I believe the laser is a fine tool and the new one on the block. Just like safety belts and other items, next was air bags for there good and bad side effects. But overall it (laser) will be accepted and a very good thing to boot.

Funny we had saps and sap gloves and batons and other weapons. They have gone away to a better sidearm and shotguns, taser's and chemical mace or pepper spray. G men had Tommies and so did the bad guy now we have better weapons.

There was a time when LEO was out gunned and it will always be a seesaw situation.

Look at Iraq, will it really come to our shores?

HQ

[Skyguy]

This article is reprinted with permission from Police Magazine

The Great Persuader: The Little Red Dot of a Laser Sight Can Stop the Bad Guy Right in His Tracks

By Sgt. Dave Douglas

Recently on the U.S. border with Mexico, a Border Patrol officer was caught with no backup while facing an angry mob of illegal aliens bent on crossing into the United States.

The Border Patrol officer put out a cover call with a brief sit-rep on his predicament, but cover was about 10 minutes out, and we all know how long it takes for 10 minutes to grind by when we need cover.

As the crowd came to within shouting distance, the officer warned them to stop, first in perfect unaccented Spanish, then English. He was answered by a torrent of rocks and bottles. With this escalation, the officer drew his Beretta 92FS and issued another warning. Regardless, the crowd continued its onslaught.

It had to be obvious to the crowd that the officer was pointing his firearm at them. They were spread out in front and had an unimpeded view of him. But crowd mentality had taken over. They inched forward a step at a time, pausing only long enough to replenish their arsenal of dirt clods and rocks.

The officer's supervisor answered the call for backup, and he, too, was greeted by a barrage of rocks. Now two officers were pointing firearms at the crowd. Only, one of the Berettas was very different. The supervisor's weapon was equipped with a set of Crimson Trace Laser Grips. As he scanned the approaching crowd with his sights, he paused on one of the crowd, stopping the man dead in his tracks.

The young Mexican man looked at the tiny glowing ruby red dot on his chest, let out a yelp, jumped into the air, turned around, ran a zig-zag pattern back to the fence and disappeared under it. The same occurred with the next designee and the one after that. After illuminating the first few and receiving the desired results, the supervisor swept the beam across the remaining members of the crowd, and they beat a wholesale retreat back into Mexico.

A few days later at the processing center, one of the officers recognized one of the first illegals to bolt back when illuminated. Curious as to why the suspect did not respond when he was pointing his weapon at him and why he did respond when he saw the laser, the officer took him aside and questioned the man about his actions.

The illegal alien told him that early in the incident he had the comfort of the crowd. He never realized the officer's gun was pointed directly at him, and it was only after he was singled out by that red dot, that it occurred to him he could die right there and right then. The sobering effect of being starkly confronted with the fact that, within a second or two, a bullet could enter his body right where that little dot was glowing brought his mortality into crystal clarity and overcame the crowd mentality.

I can't think of a better argument for equipping police officers with laser sights.

Laser Critics

Of course, there are those who would argue against such a move.

One of the primary criticisms against laser sights is that officers will become dependent on them, and that their responses will be slower in a gunfight, especially if the sight is not operating properly or conditions are not right for laser sighting. The logic here is that an officer might hesitate if he or she doesn''t see the red dot.

The answer to this criticism is simple. Hardly anyone who supports laser sights believes that a laser should be the primary sight on an officer's pistol. Iron sights on a duty handgun are the primary sighting system. A laser sight is a secondary sight. Officers should be taught to use the primary sight first and then transition to the laser, time permitting.

And the truth is that in many gunfights officers don't use sights at all. Many will tell you afterward that during the shooting all they were looking at was the big gun in the suspect's hand. This is why many agencies teach reaction point shooting for those instances when using any sight at all will be too slow. Equipping officers with laser sights should not change that in any way.

That's the bad side of laser sights. Here's the good.

Target Acquisition

First let's talk about accuracy under stress. Crimson Trace says that out of the seven documented shootings involving Laser Grips 35 rounds were fired with 33 hits. That's a ratio of around 94 percent, and it isn't too bad. The national average hovers around the 20 percent mark.

Shooting experts believe the hit count goes up so dramatically when officers use lasers because the lasers give the officers a tool to overcome the body's physiological response to stress, allowing them to accurately respond. We are conditioned by survival instinct to look at the threat, but we teach officers to look at the tips of their guns. Since we really don't have a choice other than to attempt resistance to natural stress reactions, experts believe it's very beneficial to have a projected red dot in the area we are going to look at anyway.

Another benefit of laser sights is they can't be beat for low-light shooting. In a low-light encounter, at times officers have a hard time even picking up their sights let alone efficiently using them. They will, however, be able to see the laser.

Hitting a moving target is another advantage of laser sights. A medium-sized sheriff''s department on the West Coast has observed that when its SWAT deputies were equipped with laser sights, the deputies shot dramatically better on the move, even when the target was also moving.

Realtime target assessment is another area where lasers shine.

To demonstrate this, try the following exercise. Have a friend stand between 10 and 15 feet away. Now, WITHOUT A GUN IN YOUR HAND, take up a good firearm combat stance, Weaver, Modified Weaver, Isosceles, whichever one you feel comfortable with. Sight over the top of your hands as if you have a pistol and are using the sights. Then have your friend put a hand on his or her belt buckle and hold out a number of fingers. Can you tell how many? Probably not.

Lower your hands about five inches and try again, imagining a little red dot brightly glowing at the center mass of the target. This time you should easily be able to tell how many fingers are being held out. This translates to watching a suspect's hands. Is the suspect pulling out a gun, a knife, or a badge clipped in his waistband? With a laser sight helping you with target acquisition, you may be able to tell the difference much faster than if you were using only iron sights.

Lasers are also an invaluable training tool for helping shooters improve their marksmanship. They can also show new shooters just how trigger finger placement and pull translates at the target.

The Intimidator

Perhaps the greatest benefit of all is the deterrent factor as illustrated in the border incident previously described. None of us really wants to end a life unnecessarily. If given the option, I would much rather take a suspect in wearing handcuffs instead of a toe tag.

This is one of the few areas that I can think of in which Hollywood has done law enforcement a favor. After all those films and TV programs showing a laser dot sweeping a room and coming to rest on the chest of a bad guy, the public has been indoctrinated to recognize this as instant death or the resolution of a bad situation when the suspect throws down the gun, thrusts his hands in the air, and gives up. And the public who has seen these images includes the suspects that we sometimes have to challenge with deadly force.

Here's another example of the power of lasers on the minds of suspects. Officers I interviewed for this article told me about a suspect they had been chasing for about 15 minutes through backyards, over fences, and down to a brackish pond at the bottom of a canyon.

The suspect lay on his back mostly submerged with just his eyes and nose peaking out as in an old 'Lone Ranger' episode. The only thing that was missing was breathing through a reed. Repeated attempts with drawn pistols to get the felon to come out did no good.

But one of the officers was equipped with a laser sight and, when he placed the dot on the suspect's forehead, the suspect gave up. According to the hysterically laughing cops who told me the story, he jumped out of the water looking like a Polaris missile launch with weeds still hanging off his ears.

Justified Expense

Police Budgets are a bit tight right now everywhere across the United States. But when you consider the intimidation factor of laser sights and their ability to prevent police-involved shootings, such equipment can be easily justified.

Run this cost analysis: one laser sighting system vs. one officer-involved shooting. On one hand you have between $200 and $400 for the sight. On the other: administrative leave, Internal Affairs investigation, possibly a homicide investigation, crime scene processing, detective call out, critical incident debriefing, weapons lab work from the crime lab, use-of-force review, Officer's Association attorney, psychiatric counseling, officer leave, citizen''s review board, and civil litigation lasting years.


Sgt. Dave Douglas is a frequent contributor to POLICE and a 25-year veteran of the San Diego Police Department.
This article is reprinted with permission from Police Magazine, online at www.policemag.com/.
.