How to work a 1851 Navy .44

BlackPowderBen · March 3, 2015, 06:24 PM

Hi,
I got a Pietta 1851 Navy .44, and I went to fire it, but the bullet didn't shoot out, the powder just went off, what am I doing wrong?
(I was using 25 grains Pyrodex Pistol powder, and a .451 Hornady lead ball)

Also, I have a Thompson hawken rifle that gets narrower at the breech end of the barrel because of rust and pitting, is it safe to fire?
Thanks

AKexpat · March 3, 2015, 06:38 PM

I think you are going to have to post more about your shooting experience.

noelf2 · March 3, 2015, 06:58 PM

How are you measuring your powder? And how do you know the powder burned if the bullet didn't at least leave the cylinder? If the bullet left the cylinder, did it get stuck in the barrel?

BlackPowderBen · March 3, 2015, 07:06 PM

Ok, sorry about that I'll elaborate more. The rifle has been thoroughly cleaned, but I cant see down the barrel. I can feel the barrel narrows down by the breech end of the gun and then opens up again. The narrowing, I think is from a charge lodged in the barrel when I bought it, and has been removed, but is this rust?. 1. Do you think its safe to fire like that? 50 cal round, or use smaller?
2. And/Or does anybody have any ideas on how to open up that gap?

Also, the colt navy .44.
I poured 25 grains of pyrodex pistol powder down the cylinder, next I put a .451 lead ball and rammed it down hard. I repeated this process 5 more times, and then using remington #10 percussion caps, I fired the gun. The powder went off, but the bullet sat half in half out of the barrel.
What am I doing wrong, Why is it not firing?
Thanks

AKexpat · March 3, 2015, 07:42 PM

You might get a better powder measure. 25 grains of Pyrodex should have pushed that ball well out of the barrel.

And I have no idea about your rifle problem and don't even want to approach it.

BlackPowderBen · March 3, 2015, 07:53 PM

I heard somewhere that if your using black powder subsitutes like pyrodex, you should not ram the lead ball in really hard, which is what I did.
Is this true?
Thanks

AKexpat · March 3, 2015, 08:00 PM

Pyrodex, Goex, and other BP should have no effect on pushing the ball out of the barrel. Pietta recommends only 12 grains FF to push a .375 ball from a 1851 Navy. Many folks use a lubricated wad between the powder and the ball.

If you push REALLY hard upon loading, all you are doing is creating a small lead sizing ring that is discarded and has no effect upon the firing of the pistol.

Who are you talking to? You might want to get better educated. I did and it works well.

44 Dave · March 3, 2015, 08:26 PM

I would bet on oil contamination. Did you do fire caps before loading powder to clean chambers. I am too cheap to do it, I blow them out with compressed air and dry with a q-tip. and I don't trust anything but the "holey black".

Stormson · March 3, 2015, 08:28 PM

Rifle= No idea.

Revolver however... That sounds like,possibly, an extraordinarily dangerous situation. First of all, Im assuming you checked for a barrel obstruction??? If not then do that first and foremost. Right now in fact.

I would then check the powder...Did you buy it new or has it been setting,open, on a buddies shelf for awhile?

If its neither of these then make sure your timing it correct... When fully cocked (empty!) shine a light down the barrel and make sure it lines up with the chamber...If it does, then see if there is excessive travel... Check and make sure that you cant turn the cylinder, in full cock, too far to the right or left. A TINY bit is normal, but not much at all.. a TINY bit.

If its none of those then I'd either just return it or wait for those more advanced then me to come along... May take a couple days but there are some REALLY sharp folks here...

Hawg · March 3, 2015, 08:29 PM

I'm thinking powder contamination and the cap is all that went off. Is the gun new? Did you thoroughly clean all the shipping grease or oil out of the chambers before loading?

BlackPowderBen · March 3, 2015, 08:48 PM

The gun did have a timing issue, I got that repaired after I tried shooting it. But if the gun cylinder and barrel didn't line up well enough because of the timing issue, wouldn't some of the ball break off when fired?

Hawg · March 3, 2015, 09:43 PM

If 25 grains of Pyrodex went off you'd have had a boom and a big ball of smoke and that ball would have went somewhere.

Stormson · March 3, 2015, 09:49 PM

I would guess it depends on how much play there is in the cylinder? If it lines up, but moves a whole third of an inch when it fires... Eh... Who knows what could happen?

Ive never encountered it at the range but AM facing something similar with my two '58's... I have a 2013 5.5" and, IIRC, a '93 8" target. Either cylinder will lock up correctly in the 8" BUT if I try the old cylinder from that 8" and place it on the shorty, the cylinder SEEMS to line up, but has over a 1/4 inch of play to the right when I try moving it. Enough that I would NEVER attempt to fire it from the shorty frame...

Stormson · March 3, 2015, 09:52 PM

Quote:

If 25 grains of Pyrodex went off you'd have had a boom and a big ball of smoke and that ball would have went somewhere.

LOL ... True dat! I didnt even think about that Hawg.... Yeah, if 25grs went off, even if it slammed into the back of the frame and caught, one would for sure KNOW it ignited...Heck, ESPECIALLY if it was slamming into the frame I suspect!

Hawg · March 3, 2015, 10:09 PM

Stormson, Pietta changed the bolts in between those years.

Stormson · March 3, 2015, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Stormson, Pietta changed the bolts in between those years.

Yeah I noticed that... The old one is frigging HUGE.... To the point of scratching the cylinder up pretty bad... Havent had a chance to whittle it down yet. Had even thought about getting a set of newer parts, but then I'd have to replace the cylinder as well... LOL, few more bucks and I could just get another one altogether...

Hmm... New gun...Now, THERES an idea...

Good Lord... You guys have outright INFECTED me with this madness of yours.... LOL

brazosdave · March 4, 2015, 07:57 AM

Ben, for the pistol. Are you shaving a ring with those .451's?
My simple suggestion: clean your gun, get some .454 roundballs, go ahead with your 25 grains of pyrodex P, cap it and shoot it. The only time i've ever had a rb fail to exit the barrel was in my early days of making powder, before i started pressing it. If you didn't have enought screened powder, it didn't have enough oomph.

The reason i'm saying go with the larger balls is that perhaps you are getting blow by with the .451's. Cleaning your gun and trying a slightly larger rb is the cheapest easist step to take first.

noelf2 · March 4, 2015, 08:34 AM

He doesn't seem to want to give us more info, so we're just spinning and speculating. Need to know how old your powder is; how are you measuring it (for all we know he's counting out 25 little grains); did you get a boom and smoke or just a cap popping?

For the rifle, try to drop a bore light in there and see what's going on. Don't shoot it. I doubt rust would restrict so much that you could tell a huge difference in the bore. Something is stuck in there, maybe part of a plastic sabot or something.

BlackPowderBen · March 4, 2015, 09:42 AM

The powder for the pistol was new, I measured the powder out in a adjustable brass measure, and I did get a cloud of smoke not just the cap popping.

I bought the rifle used, it was missing a hammer and it had a charge and a cleaning jag in it (Not from me

) A gunsmith got the charge out, cleaned it thoroughly, and put a new hammer on it.

jolly1 · March 4, 2015, 10:36 AM

In my view - your are not doing anything wrong, except you are using wrong ball.
From my Pietta army 1860 44 - i tried following: balls .451; 0.454; 0.457, and conical ball .450.

Now, when pushing the ball down to cylinder chamber, there must be a ring of lead, remaining on top of cylinder chamber. This is how it is supposed to be.
When I tried loading with ball .451 - there was no lead ring left on fwd part of cylinder chamber.
This means that 451 - does not seal properly, so reading your post my conclusion is that you need to change the ball for larger diameter. Then - you will get appropriate sealing inside chamber, and then in barrel, and as indication you must get the lead ring when loading.

From my pietta all other ball types work well, except - .451.

maillemaker · March 4, 2015, 10:52 AM

I agree with others - if you really put 25 grains of Pyrdoex 3F into the chamber and it went off that ball would have gone somewhere.

Even when you get a chainfire and the chambers to the left and right of the barrel go off those bullets hit the frame and keep on trucking.

I agree with the poster who said check for a barrel obstruction. This is easy to do with your gun - knock out the wedge and use the loading lever to push the barrel assembly off the frame and then look down the barrel.

Also agree with others that when loading you should always shave a small ring of lead off the ball on the mouth of the chamber - this is how you know you have a nice gas-tight seal and won't get chain fires into adjacent cylinders. But even an under-sized ball should have fired, I would think.

My .44 caliber Piettas like .454 round balls.

When you fired the revolver, how far out of the chamber did the ball move? Any at all? Did it move into the barrel? Did it then lock up the action being half-in and half-out of the chamber? Where is the ball now?

Steve

maillemaker · March 4, 2015, 10:54 AM

For the rifle, if you are certain that it is just rust and pitting, then sure, you can fire it. A gunsmith with a borescope can tell you this. Or, if the breech can be removed, it can be even more thoroughly inspected.

But if there is a blown skirt or other debris caught in the breech, you're going to need to do some work before it can be fired.

Steve

wogpotter · March 4, 2015, 11:38 AM

If I'm if I'm reading the limited info from the OP correctly he has a timing issue that is serious enough that the ball is striking the forcing cone far enough off center that the pressure escapes while jamming the ball into the breech end of the barrel.

That's a dangerous condition & you should have a qualified gunsmith verify the mechanical condition is good enough to fire it safely!

noelf2 · March 4, 2015, 12:52 PM

Quote:

I put a .451 lead ball and rammed it down hard.

Was the ball a good tight fit going into the chamber?

Quote:

the bullet sat half in half out of the barrel.

Does that mean that the ball went half way through the barrel and stuck in the middle somewhere? or it only went half way into the mouth of the barrel (the forcing cone)? Did the cylinder get locked up after you fired it?

BlackPowderBen · March 4, 2015, 01:14 PM

To the last poster,
the ball was sitting in the mouth of the barrel, half of the ball sticking out.

March 3, 2015, 06:38 PM	#2
AKexpat Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2014 Location: SW WA State Posts: 490	I think you are going to have to post more about your shooting experience. __________________ To be governed – is to be watched, inspected, directed, indoctrinated, numbered, estimated, regulated, commanded, controlled, law-driven, preached at, spied upon, censured, checked, valued, enrolled – by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so. - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

March 3, 2015, 06:58 PM	#3
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	How are you measuring your powder? And how do you know the powder burned if the bullet didn't at least leave the cylinder? If the bullet left the cylinder, did it get stuck in the barrel? __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

March 3, 2015, 07:06 PM	#4
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Colt Navy Ok, sorry about that I'll elaborate more. The rifle has been thoroughly cleaned, but I cant see down the barrel. I can feel the barrel narrows down by the breech end of the gun and then opens up again. The narrowing, I think is from a charge lodged in the barrel when I bought it, and has been removed, but is this rust?. 1. Do you think its safe to fire like that? 50 cal round, or use smaller? 2. And/Or does anybody have any ideas on how to open up that gap? Also, the colt navy .44. I poured 25 grains of pyrodex pistol powder down the cylinder, next I put a .451 lead ball and rammed it down hard. I repeated this process 5 more times, and then using remington #10 percussion caps, I fired the gun. The powder went off, but the bullet sat half in half out of the barrel. What am I doing wrong, Why is it not firing? Thanks Last edited by BlackPowderBen; March 3, 2015 at 07:11 PM.

March 3, 2015, 07:42 PM	#5
AKexpat Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2014 Location: SW WA State Posts: 490	You might get a better powder measure. 25 grains of Pyrodex should have pushed that ball well out of the barrel. And I have no idea about your rifle problem and don't even want to approach it. __________________ To be governed – is to be watched, inspected, directed, indoctrinated, numbered, estimated, regulated, commanded, controlled, law-driven, preached at, spied upon, censured, checked, valued, enrolled – by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so. - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

March 3, 2015, 07:53 PM	#6
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Colt Navy I heard somewhere that if your using black powder subsitutes like pyrodex, you should not ram the lead ball in really hard, which is what I did. Is this true? Thanks

March 3, 2015, 06:24 PM	#1
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	How to work a 1851 Navy .44 Hi, I got a Pietta 1851 Navy .44, and I went to fire it, but the bullet didn't shoot out, the powder just went off, what am I doing wrong? (I was using 25 grains Pyrodex Pistol powder, and a .451 Hornady lead ball) Also, I have a Thompson hawken rifle that gets narrower at the breech end of the barrel because of rust and pitting, is it safe to fire? Thanks

March 3, 2015, 08:00 PM	#7
AKexpat Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2014 Location: SW WA State Posts: 490	Pyrodex, Goex, and other BP should have no effect on pushing the ball out of the barrel. Pietta recommends only 12 grains FF to push a .375 ball from a 1851 Navy. Many folks use a lubricated wad between the powder and the ball. If you push REALLY hard upon loading, all you are doing is creating a small lead sizing ring that is discarded and has no effect upon the firing of the pistol. Who are you talking to? You might want to get better educated. I did and it works well. __________________ To be governed – is to be watched, inspected, directed, indoctrinated, numbered, estimated, regulated, commanded, controlled, law-driven, preached at, spied upon, censured, checked, valued, enrolled – by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so. - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon Last edited by AKexpat; March 3, 2015 at 08:13 PM.

March 3, 2015, 08:26 PM	#8
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	I would bet on oil contamination. Did you do fire caps before loading powder to clean chambers. I am too cheap to do it, I blow them out with compressed air and dry with a q-tip. and I don't trust anything but the "holey black".

March 3, 2015, 08:28 PM	#9
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	Rifle= No idea. Revolver however... That sounds like,possibly, an extraordinarily dangerous situation. First of all, Im assuming you checked for a barrel obstruction??? If not then do that first and foremost. Right now in fact. I would then check the powder...Did you buy it new or has it been setting,open, on a buddies shelf for awhile? If its neither of these then make sure your timing it correct... When fully cocked (empty!) shine a light down the barrel and make sure it lines up with the chamber...If it does, then see if there is excessive travel... Check and make sure that you cant turn the cylinder, in full cock, too far to the right or left. A TINY bit is normal, but not much at all.. a TINY bit. If its none of those then I'd either just return it or wait for those more advanced then me to come along... May take a couple days but there are some REALLY sharp folks here...

March 3, 2015, 08:29 PM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I'm thinking powder contamination and the cap is all that went off. Is the gun new? Did you thoroughly clean all the shipping grease or oil out of the chambers before loading?

March 3, 2015, 08:48 PM	#11
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Colt .44 Navy The gun did have a timing issue, I got that repaired after I tried shooting it. But if the gun cylinder and barrel didn't line up well enough because of the timing issue, wouldn't some of the ball break off when fired?

March 3, 2015, 09:43 PM	#12
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	If 25 grains of Pyrodex went off you'd have had a boom and a big ball of smoke and that ball would have went somewhere.

March 3, 2015, 09:49 PM	#13
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	I would guess it depends on how much play there is in the cylinder? If it lines up, but moves a whole third of an inch when it fires... Eh... Who knows what could happen? Ive never encountered it at the range but AM facing something similar with my two '58's... I have a 2013 5.5" and, IIRC, a '93 8" target. Either cylinder will lock up correctly in the 8" BUT if I try the old cylinder from that 8" and place it on the shorty, the cylinder SEEMS to line up, but has over a 1/4 inch of play to the right when I try moving it. Enough that I would NEVER attempt to fire it from the shorty frame...

March 3, 2015, 10:09 PM	#15
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Stormson, Pietta changed the bolts in between those years.

March 4, 2015, 07:57 AM	#17
brazosdave Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2012 Location: Crockett, Texas Posts: 363	Ben, for the pistol. Are you shaving a ring with those .451's? My simple suggestion: clean your gun, get some .454 roundballs, go ahead with your 25 grains of pyrodex P, cap it and shoot it. The only time i've ever had a rb fail to exit the barrel was in my early days of making powder, before i started pressing it. If you didn't have enought screened powder, it didn't have enough oomph. The reason i'm saying go with the larger balls is that perhaps you are getting blow by with the .451's. Cleaning your gun and trying a slightly larger rb is the cheapest easist step to take first. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

March 4, 2015, 08:34 AM	#18
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	He doesn't seem to want to give us more info, so we're just spinning and speculating. Need to know how old your powder is; how are you measuring it (for all we know he's counting out 25 little grains); did you get a boom and smoke or just a cap popping? For the rifle, try to drop a bore light in there and see what's going on. Don't shoot it. I doubt rust would restrict so much that you could tell a huge difference in the bore. Something is stuck in there, maybe part of a plastic sabot or something. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

March 4, 2015, 09:42 AM	#19
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Colt .44 Navy and rifle The powder for the pistol was new, I measured the powder out in a adjustable brass measure, and I did get a cloud of smoke not just the cap popping. I bought the rifle used, it was missing a hammer and it had a charge and a cleaning jag in it (Not from me ) A gunsmith got the charge out, cleaned it thoroughly, and put a new hammer on it.

March 4, 2015, 10:36 AM	#20
jolly1 Member Join Date: November 28, 2012 Posts: 83	In my view - your are not doing anything wrong, except you are using wrong ball. From my Pietta army 1860 44 - i tried following: balls .451; 0.454; 0.457, and conical ball .450. Now, when pushing the ball down to cylinder chamber, there must be a ring of lead, remaining on top of cylinder chamber. This is how it is supposed to be. When I tried loading with ball .451 - there was no lead ring left on fwd part of cylinder chamber. This means that 451 - does not seal properly, so reading your post my conclusion is that you need to change the ball for larger diameter. Then - you will get appropriate sealing inside chamber, and then in barrel, and as indication you must get the lead ring when loading. From my pietta all other ball types work well, except - .451.

March 4, 2015, 10:52 AM	#21
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I agree with others - if you really put 25 grains of Pyrdoex 3F into the chamber and it went off that ball would have gone somewhere. Even when you get a chainfire and the chambers to the left and right of the barrel go off those bullets hit the frame and keep on trucking. I agree with the poster who said check for a barrel obstruction. This is easy to do with your gun - knock out the wedge and use the loading lever to push the barrel assembly off the frame and then look down the barrel. Also agree with others that when loading you should always shave a small ring of lead off the ball on the mouth of the chamber - this is how you know you have a nice gas-tight seal and won't get chain fires into adjacent cylinders. But even an under-sized ball should have fired, I would think. My .44 caliber Piettas like .454 round balls. When you fired the revolver, how far out of the chamber did the ball move? Any at all? Did it move into the barrel? Did it then lock up the action being half-in and half-out of the chamber? Where is the ball now? Steve

March 4, 2015, 10:54 AM	#22
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	For the rifle, if you are certain that it is just rust and pitting, then sure, you can fire it. A gunsmith with a borescope can tell you this. Or, if the breech can be removed, it can be even more thoroughly inspected. But if there is a blown skirt or other debris caught in the breech, you're going to need to do some work before it can be fired. Steve

March 4, 2015, 11:38 AM	#23
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	If I'm if I'm reading the limited info from the OP correctly he has a timing issue that is serious enough that the ball is striking the forcing cone far enough off center that the pressure escapes while jamming the ball into the breech end of the barrel. That's a dangerous condition & you should have a qualified gunsmith verify the mechanical condition is good enough to fire it safely! __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

March 4, 2015, 01:14 PM	#25
BlackPowderBen Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2015 Posts: 380	Colt .44 Navy To the last poster, the ball was sitting in the mouth of the barrel, half of the ball sticking out.