Friend shot while on the phone

[PinnedAndRecessed]

If I were armed, as I usually am, and this scenario occurred to me, I would have a hard time turning over my gun to someone that is holding me at gunpoint.

You've obviously never had someone holding a gun on you at arm's length. You have no choice. Yes, you have a hard time. I had a hard time turning over my money.

But you do what you're told.

[tydephan]

I do not accept that you must comply. If that is the way you think, you should not carry a weapon as you are just aiding the BG by giving it up. And giving away money is drastically different than handing over something like a firearm they can use to execute you.

Perhaps it is just personal preference and choice. I have never been robbed at gun point. And I pray that the situation never arises to where I must use a firearm for self-defense. But I will not relinquish my firearm.

Should LEO's also comply when a BG confronts them with a weapon or threat?

As I said, I suppose it is simply a difference in mentality. No single thought more correct than the other.

[Edward429451]

I don't agree with you must comply either. It's situational I think. I wonder why the LEO's are not trained to give up their weapons? They must know something. I agree that it's prolly foolishness to draw on a drawn gun, but you could bolt. (some) criminals are not there to shoot you, just get some easy cash from one who's been condititoned to be passive. If you bolt they may walk away. If they do shoot, its 50/50 that they will even hit you. If you zig zag, you may cut that down even more. Be a hard target to hit.

Full compliance would not be a good idea because it leaves you at their mercy and no chance if they want to shoot you. If you at least run, you have a chance (plus still keep cash/weapon/etc.)

YMMV.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

If that is the way you think, you should not carry a weapon as you are just aiding the BG by giving it up

You're twisting the argument. We're not talking about carrying a weapon and having time to present lethal force. Don't twist my words.

I'm talking about somebody getting the drop on you, sticking a loaded gun in your face, and telling you to give him your gun. And he's going to watch every move you make.

And you're going to tell me you're going to pull your piece, bring it into play, and neutralize the threat before the perp can pull the trigger?

You're dreaming.

[tydephan]

LOL. Ok dude. You're right. Always submitting is the proper play.

[Rusty Stud]

heres what i would do (im the expert of my own actions)
1) dont let them sneak up on you
2) run when you see the gun
3) shoot while you run to cover
4) dont give them the gun, they will kill you with your own weapon
(thats an embarassing way to die)

every situation's different but i dont want to be at their "mercy" know what i mean?

[JohnKSa]

I'm talking about somebody getting the drop on you, sticking a loaded gun in your face, and telling you to give him your gun. And he's going to watch every move you make.

And you're going to tell me you're going to pull your piece, bring it into play, and neutralize the threat before the perp can pull the trigger?

In this case the person submitted and was still shot.

If you could guarantee that submission would result in your remaining uninjured, then it's a different story. As it is, submitting comes with the real possibility of being shot anyway.

Statistically, your best chance of remaining uninjured is to resist with a firearm.

Temper that with the fact that it's not possible to determine in advance exactly what strategy will be useful in a given situation.

I'm certainly not saying that you should always pull a firearm and start blazing away, but I'm also not saying that you should always submit when someone gets the jump on you with a gun.

[Bud Helms]

PinnedAndRecessed said:

You've obviously never had someone holding a gun on you at arm's length. You have no choice. Yes, you have a hard time. I had a hard time turning over my money.

But you do what you're told.

You do what's right. I have never related this story on TFL before now. In the little fishing village of Niceville, Florida, in the year 1976, another American citizen, male, confronted me with a handgun. He demanded everything I had in my pockets. There were two accomplices, one man, one woman, who stood by and watched. They were about 35-40 feet distant, behind him and within my sight. The goblin walked up to me face-to-face and presented. Made his demand. I slowly reached around behind my strong side, under a light jacket and presented to him. I made a demand, "Lower your weapon." He did. Accomplices moved closer. I maintained. They stopped. Alpha Goblin withdrew. Accomplices withdrew. I let them go. Next time, who knows?

Do what you're told? Sheep talk. But understand what it is that you do. If you are not prepared to have your ticket punched, don't carry.

Many here post what they would do, if ... etc.

Train and think. Humans are the only animal on this planet that can decide what they will do in a given situation before it happens and then do it.

How do I say this? So many here have found a life on the internet. I hardly ever post in this forum. I'll say it this way: don't discount the animal inside you. The body can actually train the mind. But mindset is first. Be human. And be steadfast.

I am no gunfighter, I am just a human, a man, and I don't speak goblinese.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Always submitting is the proper play.

There you go, twisting the argument again.

I didn't say always submit. Bud posted that he resisted and won. But I'll wager dollars to doughnuts that Bud had trained for that possibility.

Sure, if you train for that, and are mentally ready for it, you might be able to pull it off.

But most of us aren't going to have any training other than the ridiculous classes we took for our CCL. And if a bad guy pulls a gun on that kind of mentality, the bad guy is going to get what he wants. You're going to freeze. You're going to think about how you're not ready to die. You're going to think about how you should have lived a better life. You're going to think about your children.

The last thing you're going to do is pull a John Rambo.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

BTW, in my experience of being held up twice, the perps wanted to maintain a distance between me and them. Had I been carrying, they never would have known it. They only wanted my money.

Some of the posters talked as if the perp is going to frisk them and then find the gun. I suspect that the vast majority of cases are like mine. I suspect that the vast majority of cases, the perp with the gun never actually touches the victim.

[snolden]

thank you Bud for bringing up the difference between sheep and sheep dogs.

Run through various scenarios ahead of time,

My personal time to pull my weapon and gamble my life is if I am about to become a prisoner or hostage or my family is in immediate danger. At that point I plan ahead to go for broke. I stack the odds in my favor by continously training.

[XavierBreath]

They are close enough to me for me to hand over my phone, right? That is important.

The number one rule of gun fighting is not "have a gun".

The number one rule of gunfighting is don't get shot.

If they are that close to me, I am going after their gun. It will be easier to get than my own, and by getting their gun, I have disarmed them. I will get my hands on it and if it is a semi-auto, throw it out of battery and cause a jam. If it is a revolver, I will be all over the cylinder. I will break fingers off their hands if I have to, but I will gain control of that gun. I will take the struggle to the ground if I have to, and kill if I have to, but I will control that gun.

Some may say it cannot be done, but action does beat reaction. There is a reason that law enforcement keeps their distance once they draw their gun.

I am not some super-ninja. I am simply a dad and a husband who wants to keep living. I am not so naive as to think I can gain a criminal's goodwill and not be killed simply by complying with their demands. They want a cell phone and some cash. I want my life. The best way to preserve my life is to gain control of the gun pointed at me.

[tydephan]

Original Poster:

Let's say my friend was armed. When they were patting him for things to steal, they would have found the weapon (either in his pocket or on lower back) and taken it back to their thug projects up the street.

The original poster proposed the "patting down" scenario, which is probably the reason so many "posters talked as if the perp is going to frisk them and then find the gun."

I don't know the statistics of "arms length robbery" vs. "frisk robbery." In my mind, this is beyond the scope of the argument, or "twisting," as you call it.

Pin:

You've obviously never had someone holding a gun on you at arm's length. You have no choice. Yes, you have a hard time. I had a hard time turning over my money.

But you do what you're told.

There you go, twisting the argument again.

I didn't say always submit.

Sounds to me like you are dealing in an absolute, which last time I checked equals "always." But maybe that's just me twisting again.

Furthermore, you have made two or three references in this forum to John Rambo and those that want to imitate him. Do you think everyone who has a gun and would stand up for themselves fantasizes about being Stallone? You presume a lot about people. You even presumed that I had no training.

This forum is certainly not a great scientific sample, however it has already yielded two different REAL stories about people who complied and were shot. It also yielded Bud's story about "defense" that worked out positively for him.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Didn't mean to offend. I was speaking in generalities.

I made an exception for those who have had training that targets the original poster's scenario. That probably represents a fraction of a percent of all citizens who carry concealed.

Probably 99.8% of all who CC have had no training beyond the impotent CCW classes we're required to take. That percentage will freeze. They'll be so afraid they'll be lucky if they don't wet their pants.

Yet many of them will post on an internet gun forum and detail how they will neutralize the threat with their bare hands, if necessary.

That's nonsense. That's Rambo.

If we try to do what Bud did we're just going to see a complete state of death.

Have you had such training? Would you describe specifically what training you had?

[tydephan]

I was also speaking in generalities with several of my comments, including:
Me:

If that is the way you think, you should not carry a weapon ...

These words did not translate properly. I certainly was not stating that YOU directly should never carry. I sincerely apologize if they came off as abrupt. I am truly sorry that you have been victimized and glad that no harm was done to you. It seems also that you really weren't hurt financially, so you are very lucky.

I do not feel as though I must defend myself by listing accomplishments. I will, however, tell you that while my first name is indeed John, my last name is not McClain or Rambo.

No one has ever said I resemble Chuck Norris or Jackie Chan. I'm not as cool as Clint Eastwood and not as nimble as a ninja.

I never claimed that I would disarm with my bare hands or shoot beams out of my eyes that instantly melt the BG's gun. My posts have revolved around the general idea that giving up my gun to the bad guy, who is already threatening my life with a gun, is only going to help him. This idealogy is based on common sense, not ninja training.

I'm a young father who will do whatever it takes to return home to his children. You assume that the assailant will not fire. I was raised in a home with 2 law enforcement officers. I always assume the worst in bad guys instead of the best.

You ask for proof from everyone, but throw out broad-based generalities like:
Pin:

Probably 99.8% of all who CC have had no training beyond the impotent CCW classes we're required to take.

These are only my beliefs. You have your beliefs. No big deal.

I'm interested in seeing this thread continue, so I think a truce is probably in order.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Now, for all who will read this, let me say my statements pertain to those who suddenly find a gun aimed at their head and a crook says, "give me your money." He's watching you intently. He's pumped. His eyes are wild. He's as twitchy as a cat in a rocking chair convention. Unless you have training otherwise, you're going to do what you're told.

You said,

You even presumed that I had no training.

That statement implies you have, in fact, received specialized training. I'm merely interested in the type of training that enables one to neutralize such threats as we're discussing.

I never claimed that I would disarm with my bare hands

No, and I never said you did. (That was hyperbole, btw.) I see a common theme among many posters on this, and numerous other, forums, viz., they seem to presume that the mere possession of a weapon is going to give them superhuman powers.

My posts have revolved around the general idea that giving up my gun to the bad guy, who is already threatening my life with a gun, is only going to help him.

And I said that unless you have some truly specialized training, if this guy has the drop on you, there's not a thing you can do about it. Panic will set in.

I also said that all the perp wants is the money. (99.9% of the time, anyway.) He's not going to get close enough to threaten himself. He's just as anxious to get out of there as you are for him to leave. As soon as throw him your wallet, money, whatever, he's gone. There's no reason for him to even know you've got a gun.

This idealogy is based on common sense, not ninja training.

Unless you have specialized training, there is no common sense in this scenario. Fear dominates.

BTW, we're not at war. This is dialogue. A discussion. It's the Socratic method. We examine an argument by questioning it; picking it to pieces. If it stands, it must be truth.

[tydephan]

Pin,

Good thoughts. I see your point of view and acknowledge your strategy.

[pax]

But most of us aren't going to have any training other than the ridiculous classes we took for our CCL.

Unless you have specialized training, ...

And I said that unless you have some truly specialized training, ...

I'm merely interested in the type of training that enables one to neutralize such threats as we're discussing.

PAR ~

If your mindset is such that you believe you cannot effectively fight back without training, then

Get. Some. Training.

I can disarm you with my bare hands, if you are brandishing a gun within arm's reach of me. And I can do it whether you are expecting it or not. Barring the most damnable kind of bad luck, I can do it more quickly than you can shoot me, even if you are expecting it, because action beats reaction every time, and because I have trained with Code Eagle guns to prove that point to my own satisfaction. Unless something horribly unexpected happens, I can get a gun away from a determined individual who expects it, before he can shoot me; the disarm process might result in him shooting a bystander, but he won't get me. I can do it even though you are probably bigger, stronger, younger, and in better shape than I am.

None of this is bragging. It is simply a statement of what I know I can do. I know I can do it because I have practiced doing it. I haven't done it in real life and I hope to God I never have to. But I can do it. I can do it, and I know I can do it, because I have training.

The training wasn't terribly expensive, didn't take excessively long, and has only required that I practice from time to time so my super-secret ninja skills stay fresh. I can disarm you with my bare hands even though I am a middle-aged, out-of-shape housewife and you are probably a strong young man. I can do it because I know how.

Get some training.

pax

[PinnedAndRecessed]

I can disarm you with my bare hands, if you are brandishing a gun within arm's reach of me.

I never said the perp was within arm's reach. The two times I was held up, they were not within arm's reach. But they were definitely cocked, locked, and ready to rock.

If I ever pull a gun on you (unlikely, at best), rest assured I will not be within arm's reach. Nor will the vast majority of stick-up men be within arm's reach.

I haven't done it in real life and I hope to God I never have to.

Ditto. What my experience has taught me is to stay out of places/neighborhoods where I have no business being.

We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

[pax]

PAR ~

Don't be too sure that your experience would be normative across the board. Some possible exceptions:

There may be a difference in how men attack women vs how they attack other men. When my little sister was robbed and nearly raped in a parking garage (saved by the intervention of strangers) the robber got right up close to her, grabbed her from behind, jammed something into her lower back -- told her it was a gun & probably was. My take on it is there's no such thing as a completed rape attempt that does not involve the perpetrator getting within arm's reach of the intended victim. Not that all attacks against women are rapes or rape attempts! Not by any means; my point is only that it may be more likely that an attacker gets within arm's reach of me than of you.

Ever watched video from real life convenience store robberies? Again, maybe not normative across the board, but interesting in that the vast majority of armed robbers apparently like to get right in the clerk's face, jabbing the gun at eye level for emphasis. A disarm would be very, very tempting in such a situation ... if you knew how. And necessary, if your instincts told you the attacker was going to kill you anyway.

When sis & her boyfriend (same sister, poor girl. Lived in L.A. during her college years) were robbed at gunpoint as they walked to the car after dinner out one night, the attacker did just the same thing as in those convenience store videos: he jabbed the gun right at their faces for emphasis when he told them to give him their money. Maybe he'd have tried it from further away if he'd been robbing the boyfriend alone, but from the way she told the tale I think the BG wanted to be close enough to grab their money directly from them. Not sure -- but it happened.

Anyway. If you think you would be so helpless that you'd have no choice but to let the BG kill you if he was so inclined if you didn't have training, then you ought to get some training.

pax

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Some possible exceptions:

Yeah, anything's possible.

My take on it is there's no such thing as a completed rape attempt that does not involve the perpetrator getting within arm's reach of the intended victim.

I'm not talking about rape, or attempted rape.

Ever watched video from real life convenience store robberies?

Again, I'm not talking about convenience store robberies.

the vast majority of armed robbers apparently like to get right in the clerk's face

We would have to see videos of all convenience store robberies in order to draw such a conclusion.

he jabbed the gun right at their faces for emphasis when he told them to give him their money.

Again, that could be, by your own admission, an isolated event. We cannot draw a conclusion based upon an exception, other than the fact that it is an exception.

If you think you would be so helpless that you'd have no choice but to let the BG kill you if he was so inclined if you didn't have training, then you ought to get some training.

Again, in my experience, the bad guy is not at arm's length. He is pumped. He is charged. If he's going to kill you, there's nothing you can do about it. Would I fight back?

Sitting here at my computer, I'll say, yes. I'll step in front of Mother Theresa and my wife and my children and shield them while simultaneously drawing my Glock 17 with 30 round magazine and immediately start double tapping. I'll absorb the bad guy's bullets so as to protect the innocents, sacrificing my own life and taking his in the process.

And they'll make long misty speeches at my funeral.

Or, in real life, maybe not.

You've never been there. You don't know for sure how you'd respond.

[pax]

PAR ~

Okay.

Plan to give up and die, then.

pax

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Plan to give up and die, then.

That's dismissive and is not a solution.

Earlier I said I prefer the Socratic method and mean no offense. All that separates us from morons is our ability to reason.

You have a different agenda? I'm all ears.

You recommend training. That's fine. I already exempted that (infinitesimally small) group of people. (Even though that group still does not know what they would do in that scenario.)

My remarks were directed at the original poster. The original post was very general directed to the general population. It is that demographic to which I address my comments. And that group will freeze in fear 99% of the time.

This fact is why law enforcement agencies and the military repeatedly train their people. They train them how to react in every conceivable situation. And then they train some more, until it becomes second nature.

The reason is that when a crisis arises, the human mind is no longer able to process rationally. I can sit at my computer and contemplate these issues and say, "Yeah, I'll draw before I turn over my weapon."

But when it happens I might not even remember that I have a gun. That's what fear does.

So that's why our LEOs and special heroes in the military train to the point of redundancy, viz., so that their training will kick in when crisis arises.

I'll go one step further. Just because you've had some training might not be all that valuable. Otherwise the above referenced specialists would not repeat it so often.

However, back to our discussion. The original poster was asking a general question re the general population. And the fact is that the vast majority of the general population will never receive any such training.

Therefore, my conclusions are correct.

Or are they?

[pax]

That's dismissive and is not a solution.

I agree. But it was your solution.

I just used fewer words to state it.

pax

[PinnedAndRecessed]

No, that's not at all what I said.

However, I just looked at your web link. Re your references to Christianity, it's obvious you are preparing to die. It's not always a bad thing.